Robert Vinson

[Peter Lemkin]

You're missing my point entirely. Vinson is quite clear that is was 12:29 PM and the plane made a 90 degree turn to the left to head south. Unless Vinson is LYING, this is only possible at 12:29 PM Mountain Standard Time, an hour AFTER the assassination.

I just consulted the book - as I suggested you do! He states on pp. 24-25 the following:

"... somewhere over Nebraska at around 12:30 one of two men in the cockpit announced in a flat, unemotional voice that the President had been shot at 12:29." [time zone not stated, but obviously CST - when JFK was shot! - if he heard the (co)pilot state a different time - possibly a minute early - maybe not - so what?! - maybe the pilot knew something we don't - or mentioned the wrong time - either way it in NO WAY pokes a hole in his story. Your contention, above, is wrong and without logic.]

" But immediately after that announcement, the plane made a sharp 90 degree turn."

" Then, sometime between 3:30 and 4:00 PM, CST, he saw a familiar sight out the window" [Dallas]

[Drew Phipps]

Thanks for the extra details from the book. It makes the story less credible than before.

1. Why would the CIA pilots fly to (or over) Nebraska? It is well north of their ostensible destination (Denver) and further north than they need to go to pretend that they are not going to Dallas. Why would the CIA pilots arbitrarily fly farther north if their true destination was Dallas and they are on an exfiltration mission to pick up agents there?

2. How does Vinson, who sits in the back, and does not communicate with the flight crew, know that he is somewhere over Nebraska? (More likely he looked at a map in the intervening years and made an arbitrary decision.)

3. Why in the world does Vinson set his pocket watch or wrist watch for Central Standard Tme? Just because he's flying over that time zone? No one does that.

4. Omaha Nebraska, the closest part of Nebraska to both Arlington AFB and Dallas, is 1430 miles from Arlington AFB as the crow flies. Giving Vinson the benefit of the doubt of a departure time of 8:30 AM EST and adding an hour as he flies west, he has been in the air for 5 hours at the point of the alleged "dramatic announcement and sharp turn". At normal cruising speed of 190 mph he can only have covered 950 miles. At the absolute top speed of the aircraft, 275 mph, he can only have covered 1375, so he is still well short of Nebraska.

There is absolutely no reason for the fearless CIA pilots to be stressing the aircraft for five full hours flying toward a point that is neither their true, or their cover, destination. Even if they did so, they can not have reached any point in Nebraska. Vinson is just flat wrong, or lying.

You can argue about Vinson's memory or his motivations, but you can't argue with mathematics.

[Peter Lemkin]

Now I sense an agenda, to debunk Vinson at all cost, following logic or not.

[Lauren Johnson]

Thanks for the extra details from the book. It makes the story less credible than before.

1. Why would the CIA pilots fly to (or over) Nebraska? It is well north of their ostensible destination (Denver) and further north than they need to go to pretend that they are not going to Dallas. Why would the CIA pilots arbitrarily fly farther north if their true destination was Dallas and they are on an exfiltration mission to pick up agents there?

2. How does Vinson, who sits in the back, and does not communicate with the flight crew, know that he is somewhere over Nebraska? (More likely he looked at a map in the intervening years and made an arbitrary decision.)

3. Why in the world does Vinson set his pocket watch or wrist watch for Central Standard Tme? Just because he's flying over that time zone? No one does that.

4. Omaha Nebraska, the closest part of Nebraska to both Arlington AFB and Dallas, is 1430 miles from Arlington AFB as the crow flies. Giving Vinson the benefit of the doubt of a departure time of 8:30 AM EST and adding an hour as he flies west, he has been in the air for 5 hours at the point of the alleged "dramatic announcement and sharp turn". At normal cruising speed of 190 mph he can only have covered 950 miles. At the absolute top speed of the aircraft, 275 mph, he can only have covered 1375, so he is still well short of Nebraska.

There is absolutely no reason for the fearless CIA pilots to be stressing the aircraft for five full hours flying toward a point that is neither their true, or their cover, destination. Even if they did so, they can not have reached any point in Nebraska. Vinson is just flat wrong, or lying.

You can argue about Vinson's memory or his motivations, but you can't argue with mathematics.

Responding to your points:

1) You are arguing from a point of lack of knowledge. No I don't know. You don't know. No one knows. But then you proceed to use that to prove a point. Since I don't know, therefore I know. This is just weak.

2) How would he know where he was? Well, he says he was estimating. He also might have been looking out one of the windows of the plane. Weak.

3) Weak.

Now, on to point four.

4) Using Google Earth, measuring the distance to the closest point to Nebraska from Andrews AFB, the distance is almost exactly 1000 mi. Using the low number of 190 mph, and estimating 5 hrs. that gets the plane to Nebraska right on time. (Peter, in your book, is the departure time listed?)

On this point, you are mistaken.

[Peter Lemkin]

Thanks for the extra details from the book. It makes the story less credible than before.

1. Why would the CIA pilots fly to (or over) Nebraska? It is well north of their ostensible destination (Denver) and further north than they need to go to pretend that they are not going to Dallas. Why would the CIA pilots arbitrarily fly farther north if their true destination was Dallas and they are on an exfiltration mission to pick up agents there?

You don't know. If the hit didn't happen they were likely to fly on, avoiding Dallas altogether. You have no idea of the plans. Your 'reaching' to 'assassinate' Vinson at any and all costs which makes me begin to wonder what your motive is.

2. How does Vinson, who sits in the back, and does not communicate with the flight crew, know that he is somewhere over Nebraska? (More likely he looked at a map in the intervening years and made an arbitrary decision.)

Some of those planes had windows he saw the familiar Dallas skyline too! Certainly there were windows in the cockpit, and this was a military [or CIA] plane - not a passenger plane of today - he could well have gotten up and looked out the front windows to know where he was - if he didn't have windows on the side in the back.

3. Why in the world does Vinson set his pocket watch or wrist watch for Central Standard Tme? Just because he's flying over that time zone? No one does that.

You nor I know what time zone his watch was set to or if he was using a clock onboard to tell time. In his book he has accounted for time zones and nothing is out of order, the probable, and especially the possible.

4. Omaha Nebraska, the closest part of Nebraska to both Arlington AFB and Dallas, is 1430 miles from Arlington AFB as the crow flies. Giving Vinson the benefit of the doubt of a departure time of 8:30 AM EST and adding an hour as he flies west, he has been in the air for 5 hours at the point of the alleged "dramatic announcement and sharp turn". At normal cruising speed of 190 mph he can only have covered 950 miles. At the absolute top speed of the aircraft, 275 mph, he can only have covered 1375, so he is still well short of Nebraska.

WRONG!
280 mph normal flight speed on some engine versions [we don't know which engines!]. Left between 8:30 and 9:00 EST [7:30 - 8:00 CST] per p.24 Vinson; 4.5 - 5 hours x 280 mph = 1260 to 1400 miles possible. Distance between Omaha and D.C. is 1015 miles by air - direct! WE don't know his exact speed, route, wind in his 'face', nor where in Nebraska.

There is absolutely no reason for the fearless CIA pilots to be stressing the aircraft for five full hours flying toward a point that is neither their true, or their cover, destination. Even if they did so, they can not have reached any point in Nebraska. Vinson is just flat wrong, or lying.

You can argue about Vinson's memory or his motivations, but you can't argue with mathematics.

With you math and logic, one can argue!!

[Albert Doyle]

4. Omaha Nebraska, the closest part of Nebraska to both Arlington AFB and Dallas, is 1430 miles from Arlington AFB as the crow flies. Giving Vinson the benefit of the doubt of a departure time of 8:30 AM EST and adding an hour as he flies west, he has been in the air for 5 hours at the point of the alleged "dramatic announcement and sharp turn". At normal cruising speed of 190 mph he can only have covered 950 miles. At the absolute top speed of the aircraft, 275 mph, he can only have covered 1375, so he is still well short of Nebraska.

My distance calculator shows the distance of the mid-point of Nebraska to Washington DC as being 1217 miles.


Never underestimate CIA Drew.


They could edge Nebraska because aircraft use predesignated "flyways" like air highways.


With Omaha at 1015 miles CIA could easily fly a C-54 at 225mph with no operational problems and be well within all possible timings and locations.


There's a big landmark in America known as the "Mississippi River". It's well visible from a low altitude-flying C-54 on its way out west.

[Dawn Meredith]

The most important reason why his story was never "investigated" is that he waited until 1993 to tell it. He missed Warren, Church, Garrison, House, even Stone's JFK made it into theaters nearly 2 years before Vinson's version.

I found this story credible when I read JFKU in 08. That there are three similar stories adds to the mystery. Waiting to talk is an indication of extreme fear to me. Or maybe Charlie is correct and it is just one more interesting yarn to take us down yet one more rabbit hole.

Tosh posted some of his Kerry testimony way back in Ed Forum days and than got in trouble and had to remove it as it was still secret.

Tosh is adamant about no longer posting on forums. People on facebook who are interested should friend him as he is very active there. And gets a lot of replies to his posts.

He is still working on his own book which I am sure will have a few interesting tales.

Dawn

[Lauren Johnson]

My distance calculator shows the distance of the mid-point of Nebraska to Washington DC as being 1217 miles.

Huh? That makes no sense. Half way between Nebraska and DC is 1217 mi? Half way from DC to Omaha is in the middle of Indiana -- that's no 1200 mi.

Just use Google Earth and use the measurement tool.

[Albert Doyle]

My distance calculator shows the distance of the mid-point of Nebraska to Washington DC as being 1217 miles.

Huh? That makes no sense. Half way between Nebraska and DC is 1217 mi? Half way from DC to Omaha is in the middle of Indiana -- that's no 1200 mi.

Just use Google Earth and use the measurement tool.

The center of the state in Nebraska to Washington DC.


Vinson knew the flight route because he was Air Force. He would know when they crossed the Mississippi River and entered Nebraska from previous flights on the same flyway.

[Drew Phipps]

I have no agenda. I am skeptical of ex-CIA employees who wait till long after retirement, (until in fact after a movie on the same topic makes a huge profit and new a book deal might be lucrative,) tell a tall tale, and then don't after the fact get prosecuted or harassed by the government. It smells of disinformation planted to discredit/distract folks with more serious airplane/airport/jfk events to report.

I don't have google earth or whatever. I'll be happy to check my atlas distances and get back to you.