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Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE?
#11
Jack White Wrote:
Brian Anderson Wrote:Hi Jack

How did JVB escape John Armstrong's research dragnet? Or does JVB fall into the category where Armstrong could not get enough backup to include her story in his book? Any thoughts?

Brian

That is easy. Absolutely NO DOCUMENTATION exists that
the FBI, Secret Service, CIA, Naval Intelligence, Garrison,
Warren Commission, House Committee, Church Committee
or hundreds of JFK Researchers ever noticed ANY of the
events described by JVB, even though all of these named
groups either were controlling, watching, studying or otherwise
at all times figuring LHO's every move in New Orleans.

Now you tell me how JVB managed to be so invisible to all of
the above that NO DOCUMENTATION EXISTS!

John relied on DOCUMENTATION or personal interviews and
research for his book. Not a single document refers to Baker.

Now you tell me whether she belongs in H&L.

Jack

I should mention that the above is a definitive comment. Part of
John's methodology was to order from the National Archives
EVERY DOCUMENT which contained the word OSWALD. This
dragnet included THOUSANDS of documents which filled
40+ 4" 4-ring notebooks. Included as containing "OSWALD"
were Lee, Robert, Marina, Pic, Marguerite, or any other
event or association referring to OSWALD. If the archive
search had turned up Oswald having an affair with an
unknown woman in New Orleans, John emphasizes to
me it would have been among the papers. But it would
not stop with "unknown woman"...she would be tracked
down to a minute extent, and her Florida classmates
would have been interviewed, her trips to Ferrie's
apartment noted, her address found, her neighbors
interviewed, her connections to Dutz Murret discovered,
her cancer experiments with Oschner investigated, her
employment at Reily questioned, her family traced, etc.
etc. etc. Investigators who checked into Jack Ruby's
sister's false teeth or Oswald's pubic hairs would leave
no stone unturned if they found LHO had a mistress.

On this basis alone, John never took seriously any claims
by JVB.

Jack
Reply
#12
Peter Lemkin Wrote:Jack, I guess [without knowing] that Assange/Wikileaks is not your gambit....no need to belabor that further, can fully understand.

I think Harvey and Lee is the best book on LHO [or whoever he/they were] bar none! No one can ignore this book and its scholarship. Taking exception to any or most parts of the book and its thesis is NO problem. Fire away. I think NO such work can be 100% correct, but having read most everything on Oswald[s] and the JFK assassination, I find this book a treasure trove of information and never-before-public information. My only complaint with the author is that he left out [was it 2/3rds?] that didn't have MULTIPLE sources as confirmation. I'll let it 'slide'....
Great book. If you haven't read it, IMO, you have no reason to even talk about LHO [and his possible/probable/ almost-certain double. [that does NOT mean that everything in his book is correct, but I think the majority will be borne out by history and fact.] More than essential reading. If you have a 'JFK-Assassination library' and do not have this book, IMHO, you do not have a library on the JFK Assassination nor on LHO.

Jack, I guess [without knowing] that Assange/Wikileaks is not your gambit....no need to belabor that further, can fully understand.

Peter...that is a side issue not related to JFK. But from the few
facts which have emerged (very strange), it appears to be a
STRAWMAN set up by the government to be knocked down, with
the aim being censorship of the internet. Seems very transparent
to me...a "limited hangout" of a few "not-very secrets" by an
intelligence agency. What I do not understand is how an Australian
can be prosecuted by the US for a "crime" not under American
jurisdiction. Any country which extradites this man for prosecution
is part of a criminal conspiracy.

Jack
Reply
#13
Jack White Wrote:That is easy. Absolutely NO DOCUMENTATION exists that the FBI, Secret Service, CIA, Naval Intelligence, Garrison,
Warren Commission, House Committee, Church Committee
or hundreds of JFK Researchers ever noticed ANY of the
events described by JVB, even though all of these named
groups either were controlling, watching, studying or otherwise
at all times figuring LHO's every move in New Orleans.

Now you tell me how JVB managed to be so invisible to all of
the above that NO DOCUMENTATION EXISTS!

John relied on DOCUMENTATION or personal interviews and
research for his book. Not a single document refers to Baker.

Now you tell me whether she belongs in H&L.

Jack

I should mention that the above is a definitive comment. Part of
John's methodology was to order from the National Archives
EVERY DOCUMENT which contained the word OSWALD. This
dragnet included THOUSANDS of documents which filled
40+ 4" 4-ring notebooks. Included as containing "OSWALD"
were Lee, Robert, Marina, Pic, Marguerite, or any other
event or association referring to OSWALD. If the archive
search had turned up Oswald having an affair with an
unknown woman in New Orleans, John emphasizes to
me it would have been among the papers. But it would
not stop with "unknown woman"...she would be tracked
down to a minute extent, and her Florida classmates
would have been interviewed, her trips to Ferrie's
apartment noted, her address found, her neighbors
interviewed, her connections to Dutz Murret discovered,
her cancer experiments with Oschner investigated, her
employment at Reily questioned, her family traced, etc.
etc. etc. Investigators who checked into Jack Ruby's
sister's false teeth or Oswald's pubic hairs would leave
no stone unturned if they found LHO had a mistress.

On this basis alone, John never took seriously any claims
by JVB.

Jack

Jack,

Please don't read this as a negative assessment of Armstrong's work (which I respect) or an endorsement of JVB. I simply seek clarification, so please correct me if I'm mis-reading you:

The premise of your argument as made above is that all Oswald-related records either are accessible or have left faint images behind even after violent redaction.

Charles
Reply
#14
Jack White Wrote:If the archive
search had turned up Oswald having an affair with an
unknown woman in New Orleans, John emphasizes to
me it would have been among the papers. But it would
not stop with "unknown woman"...she would be tracked
down to a minute extent, and her Florida classmates
would have been interviewed, her trips to Ferrie's
apartment noted, her address found, her neighbors
interviewed, her connections to Dutz Murret discovered,
her cancer experiments with Oschner investigated, her
employment at Reily questioned, her family traced, etc.
etc. etc. Investigators who checked into Jack Ruby's
sister's false teeth or Oswald's pubic hairs would leave
no stone unturned if they found LHO had a mistress.

On this basis alone, John never took seriously any claims
by JVB.

Jack


Maybe not. If JVB were part of a deep biowarfare project which violated international conventions she might be enough of an unknown figure that she could be made invisible. There are probably many such research persons who overlapped into such programs who never made it onto any files. JVB is probably one of many. She just happened to overlap into a government assassination. She's just like Rose Cheramie - right in the middle of it with all the prime evidence, but not being taken seriously.

You seem to be assuming JVB had to have a file record if she were legitimate. Well, what if she was legitimate and just didn't have any paper trail?

Hoaxter's don't get persecuted and chased from the country IMO.
Reply
#15
Charles Drago Wrote:
Jack White Wrote:That is easy. Absolutely NO DOCUMENTATION exists that the FBI, Secret Service, CIA, Naval Intelligence, Garrison,
Warren Commission, House Committee, Church Committee
or hundreds of JFK Researchers ever noticed ANY of the
events described by JVB, even though all of these named
groups either were controlling, watching, studying or otherwise
at all times figuring LHO's every move in New Orleans.

Now you tell me how JVB managed to be so invisible to all of
the above that NO DOCUMENTATION EXISTS!

John relied on DOCUMENTATION or personal interviews and
research for his book. Not a single document refers to Baker.

Now you tell me whether she belongs in H&L.

Jack

I should mention that the above is a definitive comment. Part of
John's methodology was to order from the National Archives
EVERY DOCUMENT which contained the word OSWALD. This
dragnet included THOUSANDS of documents which filled
40+ 4" 4-ring notebooks. Included as containing "OSWALD"
were Lee, Robert, Marina, Pic, Marguerite, or any other
event or association referring to OSWALD. If the archive
search had turned up Oswald having an affair with an
unknown woman in New Orleans, John emphasizes to
me it would have been among the papers. But it would
not stop with "unknown woman"...she would be tracked
down to a minute extent, and her Florida classmates
would have been interviewed, her trips to Ferrie's
apartment noted, her address found, her neighbors
interviewed, her connections to Dutz Murret discovered,
her cancer experiments with Oschner investigated, her
employment at Reily questioned, her family traced, etc.
etc. etc. Investigators who checked into Jack Ruby's
sister's false teeth or Oswald's pubic hairs would leave
no stone unturned if they found LHO had a mistress.

On this basis alone, John never took seriously any claims
by JVB.

Jack

Jack,

Please don't read this as a negative assessment of Armstrong's work (which I respect) or an endorsement of JVB. I simply seek clarification, so please correct me if I'm mis-reading you:

The premise of your argument as made above is that all Oswald-related records either are accessible or have left faint images behind even after violent redaction.

Charles

Charles...thanks for your comment, but obviously redacted
records where the name OSWALD was blacked out are not
included. John collected all documents where OSWALD was
not blacked out. If your comment suggests that all mentions
of JVB were blacked out, that is unlikely without leaving
other clues in the document concerning the content of the
document. If you look at most redacted documents, the
entire document is not redacted, only parts considered
sensitive. Otherwise, I am not sure I understand your comment.

Jack
Reply
#16
Albert Doyle Wrote:
Jack White Wrote:If the archive
search had turned up Oswald having an affair with an
unknown woman in New Orleans, John emphasizes to
me it would have been among the papers. But it would
not stop with "unknown woman"...she would be tracked
down to a minute extent, and her Florida classmates
would have been interviewed, her trips to Ferrie's
apartment noted, her address found, her neighbors
interviewed, her connections to Dutz Murret discovered,
her cancer experiments with Oschner investigated, her
employment at Reily questioned, her family traced, etc.
etc. etc. Investigators who checked into Jack Ruby's
sister's false teeth or Oswald's pubic hairs would leave
no stone unturned if they found LHO had a mistress.

On this basis alone, John never took seriously any claims
by JVB.

Jack


Maybe not. If JVB were part of a deep biowarfare project which violated international conventions she might be enough of an unknown figure that she could be made invisible. There are probably many such research persons who overlapped into such programs who never made it onto any files. JVB is probably one of many. She just happened to overlap into a government assassination. She's just like Rose Cheramie - right in the middle of it with all the prime evidence, but not being taken seriously.

You seem to be assuming JVB had to have a file record if she were legitimate. Well, what if she was legitimate and just didn't have any paper trail?

Hoaxter's don't get persecuted and chased from the country IMO.

This is an odd argument. Every tiny aspect of LHO's life
was examined in fine detail. Every associate was questioned
and investigated. It would have been IMPOSSIBLE for him
to have an affair with JVB without it being discovered by
investigators. Further, his CIA handlers would not have
allowed such a diversion from his assigned work. Arguing
that JVB's covert assignment was even more sensitive than
LHO's is pure speculation.

Jack
Reply
#17
[/QUOTE]

This is an odd argument. Every tiny aspect of LHO's life
was examined in fine detail. Every associate was questioned
and investigated. It would have been IMPOSSIBLE for him
to have an affair with JVB without it being discovered by
investigators. Further, his CIA handlers would not have
allowed such a diversion from his assigned work. Arguing
that JVB's covert assignment was even more sensitive than
LHO's is pure speculation.

Jack[/QUOTE]

I really doubt that every document, redacted or not, regarding Oswald has been released to the public; but this does not change my opinion about JVB's story, as she writes it. This is the problem with her story, her version of events cannot be corroborated in any substantive way by independent researchers. I read her first book in its entirety and if it was true that she spent so much time with Oswald, then someone, other than her, would have found evidence of their relationship.

There have been so many books, articles and other investigations about about Oswald, yet nothing has been found to support her claims about her and Oswald's alleged relationship. There could be a document buried somewhere in the archives that may substantiate her claim that she went to New Orleans to work with Oschner on a project of some type, but that alone is not enough evidence to prove her claim regarding Oswald. There may even be another document or two that reports that they crossed-paths with each other while working on some clandestine project, but the exaggerated story as she writes it, the love affair, the bio-weapon, her loveless relationship with her husband, her contact with Mary Sherman and David Ferrie, has not been substantiated by independent research.

I believe that her story is a mix of a few facts (her science background and her employment at Reilly's) and a lot of fiction. What is more likely is that they had very little or no contact in the summer of 1963 and this is why no one saw them together. If she loathed her husband and wanted to marry Oswald as she claims, then why did she stay married to him and have five kids with him?

John
Reply
#18
I have read Armstrong's book and found it to be very compelling. Comparing the pictures of Oswald in the Soviet Union to the New Orleans Oswald reveals that the two are not the same man. Has any additional research been done on Harvey since the publication of the book? I wish there had been more evidence regarding Harvey and his parents, and what happened to Lee (Norton?) after 1963.

John
Reply
#19

This is an odd argument. Every tiny aspect of LHO's life
was examined in fine detail. Every associate was questioned
and investigated. It would have been IMPOSSIBLE for him
to have an affair with JVB without it being discovered by
investigators. Further, his CIA handlers would not have
allowed such a diversion from his assigned work. Arguing
that JVB's covert assignment was even more sensitive than
LHO's is pure speculation.

Jack[/QUOTE]

I really doubt that every document, redacted or not, regarding Oswald has been released to the public; but this does not change my opinion about JVB's story, as she writes it. This is the problem with her story, her version of events cannot be corroborated in any substantive way by independent researchers. I read her first book in its entirety and if it was true that she spent so much time with Oswald, then someone, other than her, would have found evidence of their relationship.

There have been so many books, articles and other investigations about about Oswald, yet nothing has been found to support her claims about her and Oswald's alleged relationship. There could be a document buried somewhere in the archives that may substantiate her claim that she went to New Orleans to work with Oschner on a project of some type, but that alone is not enough evidence to prove her claim regarding Oswald. There may even be another document or two that reports that they crossed-paths with each other while working on some clandestine project, but the exaggerated story as she writes it, the love affair, the bio-weapon, her loveless relationship with her husband, her contact with Mary Sherman and David Ferrie, has not been substantiated by independent research.

I believe that her story is a mix of a few facts (her science background and her employment at Reilly's) and a lot of fiction. What is more likely is that they had very little or no contact in the summer of 1963 and this is why no one saw them together. If she loathed her husband and wanted to marry Oswald as she claims, then why did she stay married to him and have five kids with him?

John[/QUOTE]

Thanks, John. I agree with what you say, which is why I find
it difficult to believe anything she says.

Jack
Reply
#20
John Kowalski Wrote:I have read Armstrong's book and found it to be very compelling. Comparing the pictures of Oswald in the Soviet Union to the New Orleans Oswald reveals that the two are not the same man. Has any additional research been done on Harvey since the publication of the book? I wish there had been more evidence regarding Harvey and his parents, and what happened to Lee (Norton?) after 1963.

John

John...Armstrong spent 12 years on the LHO project, and used
every important thing he discovered (though he had to omit lots
that he had written (his first draft was twice as long) and he had
to put all the visuals on a disk. He did not pursue Norton because
he had no independent verification. However, he did prove to my
satisfaction that Norton is the original Lee.

After the book was published, Armstrong went back to "civilian life"
as a builder of custom homes. He is still interested, but he no longer
researches.

Jack

Attached: a photo of me with John at a hamburger place.


Attached Files
.jpg   Jack, John-2004.jpg (Size: 85.33 KB / Downloads: 51)
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