Explosion Norway

[Keith Millea]

I'm starting to have some doubts:

I think at this point,that I'll wait for a toxicology report,to see if any poison was used in the shooting.Right now,it is my guess,that the 9mm bullets were not injected with the poison.We'll see........

I'm also wondering why the shooter left so many clues behind.This supposedly was/is an underground group,with secret cells,etc.Breivik,just plain talks to much!

Jan:

You asked for peoples opinions who have military experience.Well,one of the BIG lessons learned in Vietnam,was to if possible,STAY OFF THE TRAILS.Breivik,leaves a long wide trail for all to see.My gut says be wary,trouble ahead.........

[Jan Klimkowski]

Keith - wise words, and I have many doubts as to exactly what Breivik is.

I'm starting to have some doubts:

I think at this point,that I'll wait for a toxicology report,to see if any poison was used in the shooting.Right now,it is my guess,that the 9mm bullets were not injected with the poison.We'll see........

Here's an MSM account:

A police source in Oslo told the Daily Mail: We still have to find out whether he did use the nicotine, and toxicology tests on the victims will give us the answer.

But his planning appears so meticulous that we fear he may have used the chemicals in this way. We would not put anything past this man.'

(snip)

The chief surgeon at a hospital treating victims of Norway's camp massacre said the killer used the special bullets designed to disintegrate inside the body and cause maximum internal damage.
Dr Colin Poole, head of surgery at Ringriket Hospital in Honefoss north west of Oslo, said surgeons treating 16 gunshot victims have recovered no full bullets.
He said: 'These bullets more or less exploded inside the body. These bullets inflicted internal damage that's absolutely horrible.'
Ballistics experts say so-called dum-dum bullets also are lighter in weight and can be fired with greater accuracy over varying distances.

They commonly are used by air marshals on aeroplanes and hunters of small animals.
Poole, a surgeon for 26 years at the hospital, said the bullets were 'hyper-fragmentable' and produced confusing pictures on X-rays.

'It's caused us all kinds of extra problems in dealing with the wounds they cause, with very strange trajectories. The effect they cause inside the body is like a thousand pin pricks.'

I agree that the post mortems and toxicological examination of the victims are very important.

I'm also wondering why the shooter left so many clues behind.This supposedly was/is an underground group,with secret cells,etc.Breivik,just plain talks to much!

Jan:

You asked for peoples opinions who have military experience.Well,one of the BIG lessons learned in Vietnam,was to if possible,STAY OFF THE TRAILS.Breivik,leaves a long wide trail for all to see.My gut says be wary,trouble ahead.........

I agree to a large extent.

His behaviour is strange.

I am most struck by Breivik's claim of initiation into the Knights Templar Europe in London in 2002.

He would have been just 22 or 23 years old. How and why was he chosen to be one of the twelve Justiciar Knights?

So, is this just another role-playing fantasy for a guy who loved role-playing computer games? A mummy's boy who bragged of one night stands but regarded women as walking wombs, and berated European women for breeding less than Islamic women?

It is possible.

And then I look at what we know happened.

Breivik killed 80 or 90 people, most of them children in cold blood.

He gathered and hid a veritable arsenal of weapons.

He left clearly visible traces on right-wing websites.

He is known by English Defence League (EDL) members, some of whom met him.

Aspects of his story which seem bizarre and unlikely have a degree of corroboration. For instance his claims about the Serbian Crusader General in Monrovia, Liberia in 2002. I've provided evidence in this thread about Serbian gunrunners being highly active in Monrovia in 2002. That's not proof, but it's provocative.

Then I look at the "anonymous sources" being printed by the Telegraph. These sources reveal some very important information.

One claims to have facilitated Breivik's rise through freemasonry.

A second source discloses that Breivik had plastic surgery in America, but not as part of his "mission", but because he is vain and wanted to get laid more.

So, here's a speculative alternate hypothesis:

Breivik was identified in his teens through standard psychological tests as having psychopathic tendencies.

He was recruited by intelligence agency X, and subjected to a form of mind control programming: eg hypno-narco-trauma programming.

As is common in such cases, he was then provided with a number of screen memories, and became a sleeper to be triggered as and when his controllers deemed it necessary.

Breivik is then kept largely away from the hustle and bustle of urban life: he lives with his mother in the country, rarely seeing his friends, spending his time on specific tasks (perhaps as instructed by his controllers): gather weaponry; bury it; gather bomb-making materials; bury them; write a manifesto; converse with right-wingers as "Sigurd the Crusader"; work out feverishly, using steroids; create a video; save a fine vintage bottle of wine for a special night, when you will also pay to hire and fuck a "model whore".

Again, note the change of language when Breivik's atrocious mission is determined.

More excerpts from Breivik's Knights Templar log, with my comments following.

It has been decided that the operation will be effectuated in Autumn, 2011. However, I cannot go into factors concerning why, at this point. My current funds are running low, and I have less than 15 000 Euro left with a 30 000 credit backup from my 10 different credit cards. My primary funds should cover all planned expenses without spending any of the credit.

"It has been decided the operation" will take place in Autumn 2011.

Again the curious sentence construction.

Not "I, the single Perfect Knight working alone, have decided that the operation will take place in Autumn 2011".

But "it has been decided".

By who?

So, the evidence is inconclusive.

Breivik may be a lone fantasist as Norwegian intelligence and much of MSM declares.

Or he may be a sleeper, who was triggered by his controllers to create Fear and Terror.

If Breivik is the latter, then it may be in his handlers' interests to create the legend of a self-obsessed "mummy's boy" who could have been stopped if Volkland Security agencies had more intrusive powers and ever more resources.

Keith - to quote your good self: just saying...

[Ed Jewett]

Thanks to everyone for their continuing efforts to shed expert light on Breivik's allegedly home made "dum dum" bullets.

Wayne Madsen writes, disgracefully:

However, the corporate media is still insisting that Breivik is a deranged single actor. Although, he is clearly deranged, even some alternate news outlets, while believing Breivik could not have acted alone, are continuing to ignore Breivik's connections to Israel and Zionist groups, pushing fanciful notions of involvement by NATO, Freemasons, and the Illuminati in Breivik's massacre.

Madsen is a smart man. He cannot be ignorant of Gladio.

His comments above create entirely false dualities.

Gladio does not mean Illuminati.

However, it does invoke NATO and known, documented, beasts such as P2 - a Facilitation cell for everything from money laundering to atrocities - garbed in freemasonic ritual attire.

In my judgement, the evidence for Breivik being a Gladio sleeper is far stronger than the evidence for him being a Mossad agent.

While I question the use of the word "disgracefully" and I am not quite ready to endorse the thought that "Gladio does not mean Illuminati" (and I have no intention of creating or asking for a diversion to that debate), I did take note of the two threads on Gladio [ https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/sho...ion-Gladio and https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/sho...h-s-Gladio ] which I will read in depth.

I am inclined at this moment to agree that the "Gladio sleeper triggered" hypothesis is very strong, and certainly stronger than any existent evidence that Mossad was involved. [I will have to check my playbill to see precisely -- historically and today -- where the lines of separation are between Israeli intelligence agencies, US and British intelligence agencies, NATO, Interpol, et alia, and I will have to spend some further time reading European history before 1947, and review the degree to which Israeli interests are already deeply embedded in Commonwealth countries as they are here in the US. There are indications they were able to provide a role-player in Amsterdam who seemed to be Southwest Asian in appearance and is known as the "well-dressed" man who escorted the "underwear bomber" through Schipol and brought us -- here in the USofA -- the scenario wherein -- thanks to the DHS/TSA-- our infants and toddlers, pre-teen girls, and wives are patted down, 93-year old leukemia patients have to shed their Depends diapers for the search, etc. Is Europe being set up for the same kinds of treatments and systems?]

[In that one case, the one involving ICTS as airport security, that company was -- if I remember correctly -- given blanket immunity against any claims involved the events of 9/11 by an act of US Congress. Such immunity leads to more bravado, and more restriction, in this case provided by people linked to Israel inside the US government and who revolve through the door to benefit financially. Very Wetiko-like -- http://www.awakeninthedream.com/ -- and at least mildly Hegelian.]

[I may also have to divert for a while to research the precise use, limitations and agreements among all those parties on who may -- or may not -- use or have access to or knowledge of how to develop and trigger a sleeper.]

At any rate, as before, having already asked Madsen's comments on another matter, I shall send him links to this thread as well as the two on Gladio and ask for his comment and participation.

[Jan Klimkowski]

[ I did take note of the two threads on Gladio [ https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/sho...ion-Gladio and https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/sho...h-s-Gladio ] which I will read in depth.

Ed - besides those two threads, which are important, there are literally dozens of threads about Gladio on DPF.

Eg the majority of threads in directory "Players, organisations, and events of deep politics" from "Gladio in Italy" to "Montejurra Massacre"
here.

A few more examples:

P2

Andreotti

Grey Wolves

Projekt-26

Permindex

[Jan Klimkowski]

Whilst I was searching DPF's copious archive, I found the following thread with an article by Wayne Madsen, from January 2011, which is highly pertinent to this thread.

Here are a couple of examples of Mr Madsen's thinking in that article:

Gladio reprise: 2011 will see the new fake threat of Islamist terrorism and anarchism'
By Wayne Madsen
Online Journal Contributing Writer
Jan 4, 2011, 00:21

(snip)

In Greece and Italy, where governments are under street pressure to resign over corruption and austerity moves, there are already signs that the paradigm shift from Islamist terrorism to leftist anarchism is already occurring, with highly-suspicious and likely false flag bombings taking place at embassies and other facilities.
Europe has seen such false flag terrorist attacks in the past blamed on leftist revolutionary groups like the Italian Red Brigades and the West German Red Army Faction, but actually carried out by a network of CIA and fascist operatives, supported by local police and intelligence agencies, to blame leftists for such attacks. The operation, known generally as "Gladio," was a ploy to damage the reputation of the Communist parties of Western Europe in order that they were not invited to join in any leftist government coalitions, particularly in Italy and France.
Gladio has raised its head again in the last decade, especially in Turkey, where the Gladio successor, "Ergenekon," has attempted coups and plotted and carried out false flag terrorist attacks in an effort to undermine the Justice and Development (AKP) government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

(snip)

2011 will see the rise of Gladio-like "anarchist" front groups that will be used to not only crack down on leftist and anti-globalist organizations but push through legislation curbing communications on and access to the Internet. Already, one such shadowy and likely front group called the "Informal Anarchist Federation" (FAI), has claimed responsibility for recent bomb attacks on the Swiss and Chilean embassies in Rome and another unsuccessful bomb attack on the Greek embassy in the Italian capital. A suspicious package was also found at the U.S. and Finnish embassies to the Vatican and the Albanian embassy to Italy in Rome and 160 consulates in Milan, once a center for Gladio activity, were placed on "high alert." Two small bombs also recently exploded at the northern Italian headquaters of the right-wing and anti-immigrant governing coalition party, the Northern League, which may be an attempt to falsely draw a link between Muslim immigrants and leftist "anarchists."
Also, bombs blamed on "anarchists" exploded at a branch of the Spanish-owned Banco Sntander in Santiago, Chile and the Banco Francés in Buenos Aires, Argentina. The explosions occurred after Argentina recgoinized the independence of Palestine and as Chile was under pressure from the Chilean left and the large Palestinian-Chilean community to follow suit. During Gladio operations in Europe, links were discovered between the Argentine Anti-communist Alliance (AAA) and the Chilean junta of General Augusto Pinochet. Chile's current right-wing billionaire president, Sebastian Pinera, was a member of the Pinochet junta. Pinera's Interior Minister, Rodrigo Hinzpeter Kirberg, has been accused by Chilean Senator Eugenio Tuma of being an "activist and militant for the Israeli cause."

Given that Wayne Madsen does know the Gladio MO, I am intrigued that he is so keen to argue for Zionist and/or Mossad involvement in the Breivik atrocity.

Perhaps he thinks that Gladio always blames false flag attacks on the left.

However, the core of Gladio is strategia della tensione: the Strategy of Tension to create Fear and Terror in entire populations.

[Ed Jewett]

the core of Gladio is strategia della tensione: the Strategy of Tension to create Fear and Terror in entire populations.

It seems to have worked:


Israelis Debate on the Web:
Did Norway Get What It Deserved?

By J.J. Goldberg
Julky 27, 2011 "The Forward" -- July 24, 2011 -- The Norway massacre has touched off a nasty war of words on the Israeli Internet over the meaning of the event and its implications for Israel. And I do mean nasty: Judging by the comments sections on the main Hebrew websites, the main questions under debate seem to be whether Norwegians deserve any sympathy from Israelis given the country's pro-Palestinian policies, whether the killer deserves any sympathy given his self-declared intention of fighting Islamic extremism and, perhaps ironically, whether calling attention to this debate is in itself an anti-Israel or anti-Semitic act.

The debate seems to be taking place almost entirely on Hebrew websites. There's a bit of bile popping up on the English-language Jerusalem Post site as well (for example, there are a handful of choice comments of a now-they'll-know-what-it-feels-like variety following this Post news article reporting on Israel's official offer of sympathy and aid). In Hebrew, though, no holds are barred. I've translated some of the back-and-forth from the Ynet and Maariv websites below, to give you taste.

The debate exploded aboveground on Saturday in an opinion essay at Ynet (in Hebrew only) by Ziv Lenchner, a left-leaning Tel Aviv artist and one of Ynet's large, bipartisan stable of columnists. It's called "Dancing the Hora on Norwegian Blood." He argues that the comment sections on news websites are a fair barometer of public sentiment (a questionable premise) and that the overwhelming response is schadenfreude, pleasure at Norway's pain. As I'll show below, that judgment seems pretty accurate.

He goes on to blame the Netanyahu government, which he accuses of whipping up a constant mood of "the whole world is against us." Again, a stretcha government can exacerbate a mood, but it can't create it out of whole cloth. Israelis have been scared and angry since long before this government came in two and a half years ago, for a whole variety of reasons. The government isn't working overtime to dispel the mood, but it can't be blamed for creating it. Finally, Lenchner argues, on very solid ground, that the vindictive mood reflected on the Web is immoral and un-Jewish, citing the biblical injunction "do not rejoice in the fall of your enemy."

His article has drawn hundreds of responsesmore than any of the articles he complains about. They fall into four basic categories in roughly equal proportions: 1.) Hurray, the Norwegians had it coming; 2.) What happened is horrible but maybe now they'll understand what we're up against; 3.) What happened is horrible and the celebrations here are appalling; 4.) This article is a bunch of lies, Ziv Lenchner invented this whole schadenfreude thing because he's a lying leftist who wants to destroy Israel.

It's worth noting that at some point late on Saturday several readers found links to Norwegian news sites showing that some kids at the campground where the shooting took place had been brandishing signs a day or two earlier calling for a boycott of Israel. These links were posted (here and here) and the mood quickly got darkersympathy for the shooting victims dropped fast.

The background to this, as Ynet reported in a news article, is that Norwegian foreign minister Jonas Gahr Store had visited the campsite on Wednesday, two days before the shootings, as he does every year (he was a camper there as a kid) and addressed the group. He was asked from the audience about Palestinian statehood, and he said Norway was looking forward to the Palestinians' U.N. bid, but he wouldn't recognize a Palestinian state before that. He was also asked about boycotting Israel. He said it was a bad idea and would make the conflict worse rather than help bring peace. At some point during the day, some of the campers held up the signs that appear in the photos. Israeli readers seem to have concluded that the pictures show the camp program was anti-Israel and therefore fair game.

Here are some of the responses to Lenchner's article:

15. Almog, Beer Sheva: they have it coming, period. Your article is pointless. Anyone who acts without mercy towards us, there's no reason I should pity them!!!! Let them continue to respect and honor Muslims.

16. Gidon: I never enjoyed any support from Norway all these years when there were terror attacks in Israel just the opposite you bent, corrupt person let them understand that terror is not a solution to anything you self-righteous Jew

54. Roi, Bet Shemesh: Ziv Lenchner you're a leftist!! If you haven't noticed you're a leftist like the rest of the media!!! Enough with the leftist incitement!!! There's no getting away from it Norway was always against the state of Israel it's not new and never will be!! We're not in favor of the attack but to say that maybe they'll understand us better after what happened is entirely legitimate!!!

103. Yossi, the north: Oslo … Maybe they'll learn in Oslo that they're not immune they'll feel what many Israelis have felt and some of them can no longer feel because of the activity of Israelis and Norwegians in Oslo.

104. Ilan, on the stoning of gays [sic]: Anti-Jewish? Have you ever heard of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth? Suddenly a few little Jew-boys have popped up and "invented" a new Torah! Before the Torah is moral it is first of all for survival and the destruction of all enemies! Sing to the Lord for He is highly exalted the horse and his rider hath He thrown into the sea [Exodus 17:21, after the drowning of Pharaoh's armyJJG]

303. Effie: I feel no sorrow about it!!!! Anyone who doesn't feel the no pain of my people shouldn't ask sympathy for his own pain.

392. We're more unfortunate: Enough demagoguery! The Norwegians and Europe generally are super-anti-Semitic. So 100 people were killed there are 7 billion more people in the world. I don't pity them they're my enemies they hate Israel so they have it coming!!!

393. The whole world dances on Jewish blood. Europe is the same Europe and even more anti-Semitic. The killer is right!!! Europe is defeated, Norwegians are becoming a minority.

458. Very sorry: With all due sorrow they were waving a sign on the island the day before calling to boycott us. So I really don't feeling like showing empathy. Very sorry. If you don't believe me here the link to the lovely picture:

When the first news report appeared Friday on Ynet, the Yediot Ahronot website and Israel's most trafficked news site, comments seemed to run about 3- or 4-to-1 (at a rough eyeball guess) hostile rather than sympathetic. The reported death toll at this point was 11, and the perpetrators were assumed to be Islamic extremists. Here are a few typical comments:

181. Noam: Ha Ha Ha! Europeans, this is your "liberalism"

240. D.A.: Bring the Oslo criminals to justice?

242. Radical Dreamer: Let them eat what they cooked.

243. Just a Person: Speedy recovery to the wounded and condolences to the families.

260. Shai, Tel Aviv: Give Norway back to the Arabs! End the occupation of Norway!

268. Shimon: Good news for Shabbat. So may they increase and learn the hard way.

285. Nir, Hasela Ha'adom: Allow me a few moments of pleasure.

315. Moshe, Haifa: I'm sorry, it doesn't move me. From my point of view, let them drown in blood.

Ynetnews, the English website, carried an English translation of the story. The comments are far more moderate: almost none express outright pleasure, and there's a rough balance between sympathy and sarcasm.

When the news came out on Saturday that the killer was not a Muslim but a right-wing Norwegian nationalist angered at multiculturalism, liberalism and tolerance of Islam, the tone sharpened. Suddenly there was a rush of comments claiming the killer was right and the victims had it coming. Here is Maariv's report on the killer's 1,500 page manifesto, calling for a European-wide uprising to "reclaim" the continent (here, for you English-language readers, is NPR's report on the same document). Maariv's readers piled on.

1. Y.: The best thing to come out of this is that Norway will be divided.

12. Gandi: the boy wanted to send a message. Extreme, yes, but they don't understand anything else.

13. Yossi: To commenter no. 1: You're mentally ill. How can you see anything good the depraved murder of boys and girls think for a minute (if you're capable) what if some of them were your relatives

To self-righteous Yossi: Coming soon to all the Norwegians. And all the Europeans.
Y.: My relatives aren't Muslims. It's time for Europe to deal with these Arabs. From my point of view they could kill 1,000,000 of them here too.
AA: You leftists have to be wiped out too. And it will happen soon. When the economic house of cards comes down, even your shoes won't be left (unlike last time)…
18. Anti-Left: Of course I condemn this terrible murder but in a larger sense he was right!

19. Ron: A freedom fighter for Norway cleared of foreigners…!!! But this time it won't be easy for you … Muslims aren't Jews who go willingly to death!

Horrifying but correct, Muslims will teach them a few lessons. They won't go like sheep to the slaughter, but today neither will we!
We also let them piss on us
Copyright © 2011, Forward Association, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info...e28698.htm

[Ed Jewett]

Jan, I appreciate your contributions to the Gladio-like argument. I am generally conversant in the tactic, though not above reading more deeply or even having my head held gently face-down in the material. (That's not a dig or a snide remark; one of my own mantras is "immersion, immediacy, intensity".) It is entirely possible that you are right on the money. But here's my degree of discomfort with the thesis of Gladio: I wonder if one needs to look even deeper than Gladio, and understand how Gladio arrived, and who the puppeteers were who handled the strings in the run-up to Gladio, and in the creation of the agencies and theories of Gladio and the greater strategies of the creation of fear and tension even before Gladio arrived. This perhaps derives from my readings about Skull and Bones, the Hegelian dialectic, and secret societies. But I haven't finished that research yet either... And I have limited amounts of time I can throw at this on a daily basis.

[Jan Klimkowski]

Jan, I appreciate your contributions to the Gladio-like argument. I am generally conversant in the tactic, though not above reading more deeply or even having my head held gently face-down in the material. (That's not a dig or a snide remark; one of my own mantras is "immersion, immediacy, intensity".) It is entirely possible that you are right on the money. But here's my degree of discomfort with the thesis of Gladio: I wonder if one needs to look even deeper than Gladio, and understand how Gladio arrived, and who the puppeteers were who handled the strings in the run-up to Gladio, and in the creation of the agencies and theories of Gladio and the greater strategies of the creation of fear and tension even before Gladio arrived. This perhaps derives from my readings about Skull and Bones, the Hegelian dialectic, and secret societies. But I haven't finished that research yet either... And I have limited amounts of time I can throw at this on a daily basis.

Ed - sometimes phrases such as MK-ULTRA or Gladio are used very narrowly.

For instance, the evidence for MK-ULTRA is, essentially, a box of files that Gottlieb (if I remember correctly) forgot to shred. In other words, it is the known above the water tip of what many, including myself, believe to be a large iceberg. Many of the mind control programmes were run by agencies and cutouts other than CIA. However, "MK-ULTRA" is often used as a convenient shorthand to refer to black operations to attempt to control the human mind in the whole.

Similarly with Gladio. This is often narrowly defined as Nazi stay behind cells in the immediate post-WW2 period. Technically, Gladio refers merely to the Italian manifestation of such cells being used in false flag terror attacks, such as the Bologna bombing, which were blamed on supposedly leftist terror groups such as the Red Brigades.

However, the concept of Gladio begins with a deal between Hitler's eastern front spymaster Gehlen, British intelligence, and the OSS, including Dulles.

Once created, this network of secret weapons caches, known to include intelligence cells containing hardened military veterans, often pro-Nazi elements with links to the Paperclip ratlines, provided plentiful opportunies to the Sponsors of Gladio.

Opportunties beyond the notion of a "partisan" army to rise up after the hypothesized invasion of western Europe by the Red Army.

Eg facilitating a coup in Greece. Perpetrating false flag terror attacks in Italy, Portugal and Belgium. Destabilizing Turkey.

The assassination attempts on DeGaulle have been persuasively linked to French Gladio elements.

Permindex smells like a board of Gladio Facilitators.

It is entirely plausible that the assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II was carried out by a Gladio cell named the Grey Wolves, to be blamed on the USSR (or one of its proxies), designed to create Fear, Terror, Fury, Despair.

The above is some of the known activity of Gladio.

However, philosophically the strategia della tensione is ancient and occult.

It is the unleashing of Chaos to mould Base Matter as the Chosen Ones decide.

Ewen Cameron stuck electrodes on a person's head in his Sleep Room and wiped their brain to create a Tabula Rasa.

The murder of civilians, particularly of women and children, creates Numbness and Horror, and a willingness to accept draconian measures to restore a sense of Sanctuary and Safety.

[Jan Klimkowski]

Israelis Debate on the Web:
Did Norway Get What It Deserved?

By J.J. Goldberg
Julky 27, 2011 "The Forward" -- July 24, 2011 -- The Norway massacre has touched off a nasty war of words on the Israeli Internet over the meaning of the event and its implications for Israel. And I do mean nasty: Judging by the comments sections on the main Hebrew websites, the main questions under debate seem to be whether Norwegians deserve any sympathy from Israelis given the country's pro-Palestinian policies, whether the killer deserves any sympathy given his self-declared intention of fighting Islamic extremism and, perhaps ironically, whether calling attention to this debate is in itself an anti-Israel or anti-Semitic act.

The debate seems to be taking place almost entirely on Hebrew websites. There's a bit of bile popping up on the English-language Jerusalem Post site as well (for example, there are a handful of choice comments of a now-they'll-know-what-it-feels-like variety following this Post news article reporting on Israel's official offer of sympathy and aid). In Hebrew, though, no holds are barred. I've translated some of the back-and-forth from the Ynet and Maariv websites below, to give you taste.

Ed - this is a fascinating insight.

Particularly because it appears that much of the debate is being conducted in Hebrew.

[Ed Jewett]

Jan, I don't speak Hebrew, or Yiddish, or Norwegian. It's all information for the grist mill of information. It may (or may not) lend some perspective, an additional filter or lens in a world filled with filters and lenses, about cultural mindsets.

I very much appreciate Post #168 and essentially agree with it all; any further discussion is fruitless in this context except perhaps to say that historical studies of the occult and who uses it to what ends are warranted.

I am afraid my head is swimming in it at this point, remembering the tales of Andrija Puharich and "The Nine", just having seen yet another article on sound-induced, microwave-delivered audio suggestion, and having just seen an old rerun of an Oprah Winfrey show in which her guests were some of the now-retired greats from Lorne Michael's famous SNL (Saturday Night Live): Jane ("you ignorant slut") Curtin was asked what it was like backstage during the production and her response was "it was chaotic, but we pulled order out of chaos".

In a much larger cultural context, the goal of the induction of chaos is to raise doubt in our selves about what we know, what we believe and, indeed, our own ability to achieve meaningful insight based on reason, the intake of the senses, and our embodiment.