Naval Intelligence, MKUltra and the Hippie Movement

[David Guyatt]

http://www.mouseplanet.com/articles.php?art=mg060222eb

My Family Disney Dynasty, Part 1

After the war he worked as a freelance commercial artist in Los Angeles, and in 1951 he joined the animation section at the U.S. Air Force Lookout Mountain Laboratory, Hollywood's “secret” film studio. There he worked as a layout, background and story-sketch artist on training and informational films for the Air Force and Atomic Energy Commission, traveled to Yucca Flat in Nevada and Eniwetok in the Pacific to witness atomic and hydrogen bomb testing.

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/156913...on-Part-IV

What would become known as Lookout Mountain Laboratory was originally envisioned as an air defense center. Built in 1941 and nestled in two-and-a-half secluded acres off what is now Wonderland Park Avenue, the installation was hidden from view and surrounded by an electrified fence. By 1947, the facility featured a fully operational movie studio. In fact, it is claimed that it was perhaps the world's only completely self-contained movie studio. With 100,000 square feet of floor space, the covert studio included sound stages, screening rooms, film processing labs, editing facilities, an animation department, and seventeen climate-controlled film vaults. It also had underground parking, a helicopter pad and a bomb shelter.




©Unknown
Lookout Mountain Laboratory

Over its lifetime, the studio produced some 19,000 classified motion pictures - more than all the Hollywood studios combined (which I guess makes Laurel Canyon the real 'motion picture capital of the world'). Officially, the facility was run by the U.S. Air Force and did nothing more nefarious than process AEC footage of atomic and nuclear bomb tests. The studio, however, was clearly equipped to do far more than just process film. There are indications that Lookout Mountain Laboratory had an advanced research and development department that was on the cutting edge of new film technologies. Such technological advances as 3-D effects were apparently first developed at the Laurel Canyon site. And Hollywood luminaries like John Ford, Jimmy Stewart, Howard Hawks, Ronald Reagan, Bing Crosby, Walt Disney and Marilyn Monroe were given clearance to work at the facility on undisclosed projects. There is no indication that any of them ever spoke of their work at the clandestine studio.


©Unknown

The facility retained as many as 250 producers, directors, technicians, editors, animators, etc., both civilian and military, all with top security clearances - and all reporting to work in a secluded corner of Laurel Canyon. Accounts vary as to when the facility ceased operations. Some claim it was in 1969, while others say the installation remained in operation longer. In any event, by all accounts the secret bunker had been up and running for more than twenty years before Laurel Canyon's rebellious teen years, and it remained operational for the most turbulent of those years.

The existence of the facility remained unknown to the general public until the early 1990s, though it had long been rumored that the CIA operated a secret movie studio somewhere in or near Hollywood. Filmmaker Peter Kuran was the first to learn of its existence, through classified documents he obtained while researching his 1995 documentary, "Trinity and Beyond." And yet even today, some 15 years after its public disclosure, one would have trouble finding even a single mention of this secret military/intelligence facility anywhere in the 'conspiracy' literature.

http://www.library.yorku.ca/ccm/SMIL/sub...s/masscomm

ATOMIC FILMMAKERS: BEHIND THE SCENES
50 min. 1998 VC #5032
Peter Kuran
Story of the people who worked at Lookout Mountain Laboratory in Hollywood, Calif and who were responsible for making
over 6,500 films for the Dept. of Defense and others, many having to do with filming nuclear tests.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookout_Mou...ce_Station

Lookout Mountain Air Force Station
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Lookout Mountain Air Force Station as seen from above.
The Lookout Mountain Air Force Station (LMAFS) located on Wonderland Avenue, Los Angeles, California, provided in-service production of classified motion picture and still photographs to the U.S. Department of Defense and the Atomic Energy Commission from 1947-1969.[1]
The 100,000-square-foot (10,000 m2) facility is built on 2 acres (8,100 m2) of land and was originally built in 1941 as a World War II air defense center to coordinate radar installations. The studio was established in 1947 and its purpose kept secret. The studio consisted of a complete stage, 2 screening rooms, a helicopter landing pad, a bomb shelter and 17 climate controlled film vaults as well as, two underground parking garages. With the latest equipment the studio could process both 35 mm and 16 mm motion pictures as well as optical prints and still photographs. The nuclear tests at Nevada Test Site were filmed in various formats including CinemaScope, stereophonic sound, VistaVision and 3-D photography.[1]
Contents [hide]
1 Personnel
2 Films
3 Residence
4 See also
5 References
6 External links
[edit]Personnel

The studio contained staff from many prominent studios alongside its military staff. Civilian personnel from Warner Brothers, Metro-Goldwyn Mayer and RKO Pictures worked at the studio in functions such as producers, cameramen and directors.[1] W. Donn Hayes (1893-1973), coiner of the American Cinema Editors (ACE) title and past president of the Motion Picture Editors Guild, worked at Lookout Mountain as his last career assignment; he had been in the film and television industries since 1916.[2] Peter G. Kuran worked at Lookout Mountain[3] before going on to an award-winning career involving both directing and visual effects work. In some cases, Kuran has brought footage of atomic tests developed at Lookout Mountain directly to his later work.
Field staff included photographers who were airmen assigned to the USAF 1352d Photographic Squadron,[4] formed out of the 4881st Motion Picture Squadron in 1952.[5] In the mid-1960s, Michael R. Potochick was the group commander.[3]
[edit]Films

A New Look at the H-bomb (H-bomb and Other Smash Hits). Part 1: A New look at the H-bomb; Part 2: Operation Cue; Part 3: United States Civil Defense in action; Part 4: Let's face it (produced by United States Air Force Lookout Mountain Laboratory Air Photographic and Charting Service); Part 5: What you should know about biological warfare (produced in cooperation with the Federal Civil Defense Administration). Produced by Reid H. Ray Film Industries, Inc.
Hollywood's Top Secret Film Studio (Atomic Filmmakers) (VHS) updated and rereleased on DVD in 1999 as Hollywood's Top Secret Film Studio - The Atomic Filmmakers. Directed by Peter Kuran. DVD includes the documentary Atomic Filmakers: Behind The Scenes.
Trinity and Beyond, (1995) documentary directed by Peter Kuran.
Nukes In Space (1999). The development of the military intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM). Directed by Peter Kuran.[6]
Atomic Journeys: Welcome to Ground Zero (1999). A tour of U.S. atomic test sites in Nevada, New Mexico, Colorado, Mississippi, and Alaska. Directed by Peter Kuran.[7]
Nuclear Rescue 911: Broken Arrows & Incidents (2001). Documentary directed by Peter Kuran.[8]
[edit]Residence

Since its deactivation it has become part of the residential neighborhood which has surrounded it, and is presently the residence of a Municipal Court Commissioner and an artist.[9]
[edit]See also

First Motion Picture Unit
[edit]References

^ a b c US Department of Energy, Nevada Office. The Nevada Test Site's Secret Film Studio: Lookout Mountain (July 2006)
^ IMDb. Biography for W. Donn Hayes
^ a b International Combat Camera Association. ICCA Membership Roster
^ University of California, Berkeley. Media Resources Center, Moffett Library. Propaganda and Disinformation
^ USAF History. 1352nd Sq.
^ IMDb. Nukes In Space (1999)
^ IMDb. Atomic Journeys: Welcome to Ground Zero (1999)
^ IMDb. Nuclear Rescue 911: Broken Arrows & Incidents (2001)
^ The Center For Land Use Interpretation. Lookout Mountain
[edit]External links

The Center For Land Use Interpretation. Map coordinates of Lookout Mountain.
California Literary Review. Peter Kuran. Images from How To Photograph An Atomic Bomb; some images of Lookout Mountain photographers at work

[Magda Hassan]

The existence of the facility remained unknown to the general public until the early 1990s, though it had long been rumored that the CIA operated a secret movie studio somewhere in or near Hollywood. Filmmaker Peter Kuran was the first to learn of its existence, through classified documents he obtained while researching his 1995 documentary, "Trinity and Beyond." And yet even today, some 15 years after its public disclosure, one would have trouble finding even a single mention of this secret military/intelligence facility anywhere in the 'conspiracy' literature.

Puts paid to the theory that you can't keep a big thing secret doesn't it? 'Conspiracy Theorists' are often dismissed by others with that brush off. Here is a facility producing more films than Hollywood involving hundreds if not thousands of people over the years right in the middle of LA a huge metropolis and there is no 'evidence' until 1990's.

[Linda Minor]

The following is a good overview of quite how visible some of the "medical" programming research on "expendable" and "captive" populations had become. In Governor Reagan's California, narco-behaviourist experimentation on humans was not criminal, it was fashionable.

This is also the historical period during which Kalifornia became Serial Killer land:

The Law Enforcement Assistance Administration funded the doctors $108,000 and the National Institute of Mental Health kicked in another $500,000, under pressure from Congress. They believed that psychosurgery would inevitably be performed in connection with the program, and that, since it irreversibly impaired people's emotional and intellectual capacities, it could be used as an instrument of repression and social control.
***
It would also encourage law enforcement to keep computer files on pre-delinquent children, which would make possible the treatment of children before they became delinquents.

The purpose of the Violence Center was not just research. The staff was to include sociologists, lawyers, police officers, clergymen and probation officers. With the backing of Governor Reagan and Dr. Brian, West had secured guarantees of prisoner volunteers from several California correctional institutions, including Vacaville. Vacaville and Atascadero were chosen as the primary sources for the human guinea pigs. These institutions had established a reputation, by that time, of committing some of the worst atrocities in West Coast history. Some of the experimentations differed little from what the Nazis did in the death camps.

Dr. Earl Brian, Governor Ronald Reagan's Secretary of Health, was adamant about his support for mind control centers in California. He felt the behavior modification plan of the Violence Control Centers was important in the prevention of crime.

LEAA was the entity that funded the grant to create INSLAW and PROMIS--which involved Dr. Earl Brian.

http://www.pinknoiz.com/covert/inslaw.summary.html

On August 11, 1992, the Committee on the Judiciary approved and adopted a report entitled, '"The INSLAW Affair." The chairman was directed to transmit a copy to the Speaker of the House.

...Based on their knowledge and belief, the Hamiltons have alleged that high level officials in the Department of Justice conspired to steal the Enhanced PROMIS software system. As an element of this theft, these officials, who included former Attorney General Edwin Meese and Deputy
Attorney General Lowell Jensen, forced INSLAW into bankruptcy by intentionally creating a sham contract dispute over the terms and conditions of the contract which led to the withholding of payments due INSLAW by the Department.
The Hamiltons maintain that, after driving the company into bankruptcy, Justice officials attempted to force the conversion of INSLAW's bankruptcy status from Chapter 11:
Reorganization to Chapter 7: Liquidation. They assert that such a change in bankruptcy status would have resulted in the forced sale of INSLAW'S assets, including Enhanced PROMIS to a rival computer company called Hadron, Inc., which, at the time, was attempting
to conduct a hostile buyout of INSLAW. Hadron, Inc., was controlled by the Biotech Capital Corporation, under the control of Dr. Earl Brian, who was president and chairman of the corporation. The Hamiltons assert that even though the attempt to change the status of INSLAW's bankruptcy was unsuccessful, the Enhanced PROMIS software system was eventually provided to Dr. Brian by individuals from the Department with the knowledge and concurrence of then Attorney General Meese who had previously worked with Dr. Brian in the cabinet of California Governor Ronald Reagan and later at the Reagan White House. According to the
Hamiltons, the ultimate goal of the conspiracy was to position Hadron and the other companies owned or controlled by Dr. Brian to take advantage of the nearly 3 billion dollars, worth of automated data processing upgrade contracts planned to be awarded by the Department of Justice during the 1980's.
Information obtained by the Hamiltons through sworn affidavits of several individuals, including Ari Ben-Menashe, a former Israeli Mossad officer, and Michael Riconosciuto, an individual who claims to have ties to the intelligence community, indicated that an element of this ongoing criminal enterprise by Mr. Meese, Dr. Brian and others included the modification of the Enhanced PROMIS software by individuals associated with the world of covert intelligence operations. The Hamiltons claim the modification of Enhanced PROMIS was an essential element of the enterprise, because the software was subsequently distributed by Dr. Brian to intelligence agencies internationally with a "back door" software routine, so that U.S. intelligence agencies could covertly break into the system when needed. The Hamiltons also presented information
indicating that PROMIS had been distributed to several Federal agencies, including the FBI, CIA, and DEA....

This is what Danny Casolaro was looking into when he suicided.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.01/inslaw_pr.html

A House Judiciary Committee report released last September found evidence raising "serious concerns" that high officials at the Department of Justice executed a pre-meditated plan to destroy Inslaw and co-opt the rights to its PROMIS software. The committee's call for an independent counsel have fallen on deaf ears. One journalist, Danny Casolaro, died as he attempted to tell the story (see sidebar), and boxes of documents relating to the case have been destroyed, stolen, or conveniently "lost" by the Department of Justice.

But so far, not a single person has been held accountable....

WIRED has spent two years searching for the answers to the questions Inslaw poses: Why would Justice steal PROMIS? Did it then cover up the theft? Did it let associates of government officials sell PROMIS to foreign governments, which then used the software to track political dissidents instead of legal cases? (Israel has reportedly used PROMIS to track troublesome Palestinians.)

The implications continue: that Meese profited from the sales of the stolen property. That Brian, Meese's business associate, may have been involved in the October Surprise (the oft-debunked but persistent theory that the Reagan campaign conspired to insure that US hostages in Iran were held until after Reagan won the 1980 election, see sidebar). That some of the moneys derived from the illegal sales of PROMIS furthered covert and illegal government programs in Nicaragua. That Oliver used PROMIS as a population tracking instrument for his White House-based domestic emergency management program.

Each new set of allegations leads to a new set of possibilities, which makes the story still more difficult to comprehend. But one truth is obvious: What the Inslaw case presents, in its broadest possible implications, is a painfully clear snapshot of how the Justice Department operated during the Reagan-Bush years....

As the contract problems with DOJ emerged, Hamilton received a phone call from Dominic Laiti, chief executive of Hadron. Laiti wanted to buy Inslaw. Hamilton refused to sell. According to Hamilton's statements in court documents, Laiti then warned him that Hadron had friends in the government and if Inslaw didn't sell willingly, it would be forced to sell.

Those government connections included Peter Videnieks over at the Justice Department, according to John Schoolmeester, Videnieks' former Customs Service supervisor. Laiti and Videnieks both deny ever meeting or having any contact, but Schoolmeester has told both WIRED and the House Judiciary Committee it was "impossible" for the pair not to know each other because of the type of work and oversight involved in Hadron's relationship with the Customs Service. Schoolmeester also said that because of Brian's relationship with then-President Reagan (see sidebar), Hadron was considered an "inside" company.

The full-court press continued. In 1985 Allen & Co., a New York investment banking concern with close business ties to Earl Brian, helped finance a second company, SCT, which also attempted to purchase Inslaw. That attempt also failed, but in the process a number of Inslaw's customers were warned by SCT that Inslaw would soon go bankrupt and would not survive reorganization, Hamilton said in court documents.

Broke and with no friends in the government, on June 9, 1986, Inslaw filed a $30 million lawsuit against the DOJ in bankruptcy court. Inslaw's attorney for the case (he was later fired from his firm under extremely suspicious circumstances -- see sidebar) was Leigh Ratiner of the Washington firm Dickstein, Shapiro & Morin [Law firm for which Scooter Libby and Len Garment worked at one time]. Ratiner chose bankruptcy court for the filing based on the premise that Justice, the creditor, had control of PROMIS. He explained recently, "It was forbidden by the BankruptcyAct for the creditor to exercise control over the debtor property. And that theory -- that the Justice Department was exercising control -- was the basis that the bankruptcy court had jurisdiction. ...

The string of lawsuits and widening allegations caught the eye of House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jack Brooks, D-Texas, who in 1989 launched a three-year investigation into the Inslaw affair. In the resulting report, the Committee suggested that among others, Edwin Meese, while presidential counselor and later as attorney general, and D. Lowell Jensen, a former assistant and deputy attorney general and now a US district judge in San Francisco, conspired to steal PROMIS.

"High government officials were involved," the report states. "... (S)everal individuals testified under oath that Inslaw's PROMIS software was stolen and distributed internationally in order to provide financial gain and to further intelligence and foreign policy objectives."

...But the CIA was not the only place where illegal versions of PROMIS cropped up. Canadian documents (held by the House Judiciary Committee and obtained by WIRED) place PROMIS in the hands of various Canadian government agencies. These documents include two letters to Inslaw from Canadian agencies requesting detailed user manuals -- even though Inslaw has never sold PROMIS to Canada. Canadian officials now claim the letters were in error.

And, of course, the software was transferred to Rafael Etian's anti- terrorism unit in Israel. The DOJ claims it was the LEAA version, but former Israeli spy Ben Menashe and others claim it was the 32-bit version. According to Ben Menashe, other government departments within Israel also saw PROMIS, and this time the pitchman was Dr. Earl Brian. In a 1991 affidavit related to the bankruptcy proceedings, Ben Menashe claimed: "I attended a meeting at my Department's headquarters in Tel Aviv in 1987 during which Dr. Earl W. Brian of the United States made a presentation intended to facilitate the use of the PROMIS computer software."

"Dr. Brian stated during his presentation that all U.S. Intelligence Agencies, including the Defense Intelligence Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency, and the National Security Agency and the U.S. Department of Justice were then using the PROMIS computer software," Ben Menashe continued. While the credibility of his statements has been questioned, the Israeli government has admitted that Ben Menashe had access to extremely sensitive information during his tenure at the Mossad.

Asked why Israeli intelligence would have been so interested in Inslaw and PROMIS, Ben Menashe said, "PROMIS was a very big thing for us guys, a very, very big thing ... it was probably the most important issue of the '80s because it just changed the whole intelligence outlook. The whole form of intelligence collection changed. This whole thing changed it." PROMIS, Ben Menashe said, was perfect for tracking Palestinians and other political dissidents. ...

Apparently, Israel was not the only country interested in using PROMIS for internal security purposes. Lt. Col. Oliver North also may have been using the program. According to several intelligence community sources, PROMIS was in use at a 6,100-square-foot command center built on the sixth floor of the Justice Department. According to both a contractor who helped design the center and information disclosed during the Iran-Contra hearings, Oliver North had a similar, but smaller, White House operations room that was connected by computer link to the DOJ's command center. ...

Dr. Earl W. Brian has made quite a career of riding Reagan and Meese's coattails. After a stint in Vietnam, where he worked as a combat physician in the unit that supplied air support for Operation Phoenix, Brian returned to California with a chest full of ribbons and a waiting job - as Secretary of Health - with then-Governor Reagan's administration. (Operation Phoenix, a well-documented CIA political assassination program, used computers to track "enemies" in Vietnam.) ...

Michael Riconosciuto, a computer programmer and chemist who surfs the spooky fringe of the guns-'n'-money crowd, is currently serving a federal prison sentence for drug crimes.... "I engaged in some software development and modification work in 1983 and 1984 on proprietary PROMIS computer software product," he stated. "The copy of PROMIS on which I worked came from the US Department of Justice. Earl W. Brian made it available to me through Wackenhut (a security company with close FBI and CIA connections) after acquiring it from Peter Videnieks, who was then a Department of Justice contracting official with the responsibility for PROMIS software. I performed the modifications to PROMIS in Indio, Calif.; Silver Springs, Md.; and Miami, Fla."

Riconosciuto, of course, was the child prodigy, son of Marshall Riconosciuto who was an associate of none other than Fred Crisman:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/lofive...12951.html

Jan Klimkowski;Jun 12 2008, 05:12 PM
There are some Wackenhut clues in a book called "The Octopus: Secret Government and the Death of Danny Casolaro" by Kenn Thomas & Jim Keith.
Appendix Three is the transcript of a prison interview with Michael Riconosciuto (MR), mainly revolving around Fred Crisman (FC) whom MR claims to have known since he was a child. The first part of the interview concerns claims that the "Maury Island Incident" was effectively a cover story put together by Crisman to disguise the crash of an experimental plane designed by Nazi Paperclip scientists and carrying some sort of radioactive device. Guy Banister was also involved in the propagation of the general flying saucers cover story. (Levenda separately documents this.)
[Wackenhut/JFK excerpts from the transcript at above url]

http://n6rpf.com-us.net/mauryisl.html

Fred Lee Crisman went on to lead a peculiar and interesting demi-monde life. In 1968, less than two weeks before he was subpoenaed by New Orleans' D.A. Jim Garrison in regard to the Kennedy assassination his car was riddled with bullets as he drove home late at night. 34
In the 95th Congress at the hearings before the select committee onassassinations, it was suggested that Crisman was one of the three tramps at Dealy Plaza. 35

In his autobiographical memoir, Murder of a city, (written under the pseudonym Jon Gold), Crisman details his relationship with Marshall Riconoscuito, the father of Michael Riconoscuito, the infamous informer to conspiracy researcher Danny Casolaro.
But before Danny Casolaro,
before Dealy Plaza,
before Roswell,
there was...
... Maury Island.

[Myra Bronstein]

Puts paid to the theory that you can't keep a big thing secret doesn't it? 'Conspiracy Theorists' are often dismissed by others with that brush off. Here is a facility producing more films than Hollywood involving hundreds if not thousands of people over the years right in the middle of LA a huge metropolis and there is no 'evidence' until 1990's.

That's an excellent point Maggie. In fact the info about the movie studio can be useful as an example when skeptics trot out that tired old line that big secrets can't be kept.

[Jan Klimkowski]

Linda - some excellent Namebase-style dot joining in your post #36 above.

What we seem to have, at its most fundamental, is not only a desire to control human beings, but a fervent belief that human beings could be controlled. Like Pavlov's dogs.

The means of controlling people is an extreme, renegade, form of Behaviourism, based on pleasure and pain, reward and punishment. Combined with manipulation of the subconscious mind.

Hence all the Bluebird/Artichoke/MK-ULTRA work on dissociative states. And all the testing of hallucinogenic and psychosis-inducing drugs.

Promis was a spooky wet dream of tracking human behaviour, and using it to predict future behaviour. Again in a very crude form (although not that different from the many silly attempts used by the spooks today to "predict" future behaviour). However, it's fascinating and frightening that Earl Brian was yet another Phoenix Program veteran.

Between the "expendable" captive population in American prisons, and the "expendable" "gook" population of SE Asia in the Phoenix Program, a vast human laboratory was available to the "doctors" of MK-ULTRA (in its broad, umbrella, sense).

One little footnote. A recent biographer claimed that the spook and novelist, Anthony Burgess, based A Clockwork Orange on real behaviour modification programmes carried out in secret American military experiments, that Burgess had learned of through his intelligence connections.

So far, not so surprizing.

However the alleged location of these military experiments is a surprize. And a very suggestive one.

These experiments were said to have taken place in Fort Bliss. And Fort Bliss was where a large number of the Nazi "scientists" spirited out of Europe under Paperclip were taken.

A Nazi Blue Bird... reborn from the ashes of World World Two... in Vietnam and California... as a Phoenix???

A Phoenix Program?

Seeking to control the extremes of human behaviour through Programming.

Seeking to track and predict human behaviour through Promis.

However, as Clockwork Orange director, Stanley Kubrick, chronicled, HAL and his programmes don't always work as planned....

[Jan Klimkowski]

I've just started a thread at the url below about Douglas Valentine's work suggesting My Lai was an example of planned Phoenix Program terror. Terror and trauma on the mass and the individual level.

http://www.deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/...0#post3540

[Jan Klimkowski]

Linda - it is not without interest that John DeCamp worked for (DCIA) Colby in the Phoenix Program:

http://www.counterpunch.org/valentine.html

Also posted here:

http://www.deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/...1#post3542

[Magda Hassan]

What we seem to have, at its most fundamental, is not only a desire to control human beings, but a fervent belief that human beings could be controlled. Like Pavlov's dogs.

And they also believe that they have the divine right to control other people. Just like dogs.

[Magda Hassan]

A Nazi Blue Bird... reborn from the ashes of World World Two... in Vietnam and California... as a Phoenix???

A Phoenix Program?

That is an interesting observation isn't it. They are not beyond having their little in jokes.

[Peter Lemkin]

A Nazi Blue Bird... reborn from the ashes of World World Two... in Vietnam and California... as a Phoenix???

A Phoenix Program?

That is an interesting observation isn't it. They are not beyond having their little in jokes.

No, they are not adverse to a joke here and there. The CIA cryptonym for the FBI was ODENVEY. Hoover was gay and they were likely joking about his 'penis envy'. Etc. I find other similar throughout the otherwise morbid field, usually nothing to laugh about. I wonder what Hoover thought of this, if he knew - likely.

...sorry for the digression ...back to the thread...