Drew Phipps Wrote:I read Bob's question to ask, "How did the FBI claim to have determined it was a mail order rifle, and precipitating all these searches?"
Thanks, Drew. What I meant was, not all Carcano rifles arrived in North America via importers. Many were brought back by GI's and Canadian soldiers returning after WWII.
However, I guess going through the shipping manifests of the companies importing these rifles for the serial no. C2766 would be a first logical step.
What has always bothered me about these rifles is that the contract with the Italian government clearly stated all identifying marks, including serial numbers, were to be removed prior to these rifles leaving Italy, yet every Carcano in North America seems to have a serial number.
(no, I am not trying to point out a conspiracy LOL)
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.
Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
Drew Phipps Wrote:I read Bob's question to ask, "How did the FBI claim to have determined it was a mail order rifle, and precipitating all these searches?"
First off, Bob... can you show us that contract excerpt saying all those marks were to be removed - I ask since there are packing slips with carton and serial numbers which arrive from Italy and arrive from Crescent to Kleins. When Scibor and his team opens the boxes they write the SERIAL NUMBERS down on a ledger and then give each a VC# - in our case VC836. IF there are no serial numbers on the rifles and RUPP is expected by law to record the Serial #'s of the rifles he ships - we have a problem.
What gets me is that we see no other shipment of data from Kleins related to any other order or VC#'s assigned to rifles. According to the Evidence there's no record of a single one of the other 99 rifles sold. Waldman says they removed all the remaining similar rifles since they did not want to capitalize on the rifle type which many people would now want to buy. (Can you say BS?)
There was over 900 orders on that microfilm with more film at Kleins yet we do not have a single other example of a single rifle from that lot of 100 ever sold to anyone but HIDELL/OSWALD.
Not a single person has EVER come forward to say they have one of those other 99 rifles yet Kleins started to advertise this 40" FC rifle in April 1964 all the way thru Nov.
And didn't sell one?
I hope you see my problem here Bob. The evidence against Oswald the Lone Nut was mostly not available as of the shooting - evidence of a Castro-backed plan to kill JFK was. When that wasn't going to happen, the FBI went into high gear. The same exact thing happens regarding Mexico City - only even worse. Alvarado's WAS the story. $6500 to Ozzie, red-haired negro, etc.... a story I almost 100% positive was provided by Phillips as Alvarado was a CIA asset.
When that WASN'T the story, the Hoover went to his Mexico asset - Rafael Ochoa - who single-handedly created the majority of the fraudulent evidence trying to Oswald in and out of Mexico.
So Drew, the REAL question is "What did the FBI do to investigate that rifle so it could be connected to Oswald ?" Since everything was designed to find evidence against Oswald.
This was not a process of discovery but a process of a framing which changed from a Cuban conspiracy to a lone nut killer literally during the planeride back from Dallas when Bundy proclaims no conspiracy and a single shooter less than 2 hours after the fact. Thank you McGeorge.
There was no evidence at the time of the assassination which connected Oswald to the Rifle. The PMO is a fake and proveably so. The order blank is for a different rifle than ordered (just like the pistol ordered and shipped were not the same) The delivery and pickup which did not include Oswald if it even happened.
The base understanding we ALL must take from this case is that the FBI created the majority of the evidence which attempts to convict Oswald. the CIA and SS, I&NS, and ONI also helped in certain areas yet the lion share of the work was done by the FBI.
The standing challenge to LNers and CTers remains the same - can any item of evidence for Oswald's guilt be pointed to which can be authenticated as REAL EVIDENCE? I have yet to find any.
===========
Go back up to my posting of the documents. The 11/22 doc on the right claims they first checked with HL GREEN in Dallas (which of course means that if it was bought elsewhere in TX they did not check)
GREEN (whose evidence that he didn't sell a C2766 is simply the word of the FBI) gets his rifles from Crescent.
More importantly - the rifle found, C2766, was never at Kleins. Oswald never ordered the rifle (or that pistol for that matter and I prove why in my ctka work)
Kleins never shipped said rifle and the USPS never received or delivered said rifle. Unless you believe the uncorroborated reports of the FBI.
Dodd was already investigating Kleins and even Waldman claims the Dodd committee reps were driving him nuts the week after the assassination.
Start please with the premise that Oswald's ownership of said rifle must be proven - not accepted. Once you try and prove it with what the FBI offers as evidence you find that only 3 itemsr were used to authenticate the weapon as having been delivered to Kleins. One of them the 10 packing slips which are entered as evidence the first time according to the FBI by Feldsott related to a June 1962 shipment, and again in March 1964 as a Waldman exhibit.
He must claim then that 100 rifles as listed on packing slips FROM ITALY, are somehow all at Kleins along with the Italy to Crescent Packing slips... it FUBAR boys. I wrote over 70 pages on the Rifle acquisition and spent months researching it... With the evidence available - THAT rifle's journey ends at Harborside in NJ in Oct 1960. the first removal of rifles is August 1962 and did NOT remove the carton with C2766 - yet is supposedly received at Kleins in June, almost 3 months prior to this first removal.
Sorry - not possible.
[size=12]SIMILAR RIFLES SOLD IN DALLAS BY H. L. GREEN COMPANY
BUT THEIR RECORDS DO NOT REFLECT SALE OF THIS RIFLE.
CRESCENT FIREARMS COMPANY, NYC, IS SUPPLIER FOR H. L. GREEN
COMPANY, AND CURRENTLY REVIEWING RECORDS.
CRESCENT FIREARMS COMPANY, ALSO DBA FOLSOM FIREARMS
COMPANY, YONKERS, NEW YORK, SHIPPED RIFLE SN N TWO SEVEN
SIX SIX TO KLEINS SPORTING GOODS, CHICAGO, ILLINOIS, ON
'_ -^
SI £ EIGHTEEN SIXTY. TWO. ALSO SHIPPED TO KLEINS ON THREE
TWENTY SEVEN SIXTY THREE RIFLE WITH SN C TWO SEVEN FOUR SIX [/SIZE]
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
Just because Crescent Firearms wanted the serial numbers removed doesn't mean every importer had similar contractual requirements.
"All that is necessary for tyranny to succeed is for good men to do nothing." (unknown)
James Tracy: "There is sometimes an undue amount of paranoia among some conspiracy researchers that can contribute to flawed observations and analysis."
Gary Cornwell (Dept. Chief Counsel HSCA): "A fact merely marks the point at which we have agreed to let investigation cease."
Alan Ford: "Just because you believe it, that doesn't make it so."
I'm going to have to search for the article that spoke about the rifles being sold off by the Italian government. From what I recall, it was only one company involved in the sale, and they sold the rifles to the importers. I distinctly recall the terms of the agreement this company made required all identifying marks, including serial nos., to be removed prior to the rifles leaving Italy. Obviously, this never occurred.
Give me a while, and I will produce the article. I wish I could recall the name of the gunsmith in Italy hired to re-condition the rifles into working order. Riga? Riba? Something like that.
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.
Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
Bob Prudhomme Wrote:I'm going to have to search for the article that spoke about the rifles being sold off by the Italian government. From what I recall, it was only one company involved in the sale, and they sold the rifles to the importers. I distinctly recall the terms of the agreement this company made required all identifying marks, including serial nos., to be removed prior to the rifles leaving Italy. Obviously, this never occurred.
Give me a while, and I will produce the article. I wish I could recall the name of the gunsmith in Italy hired to re-condition the rifles into working order. Riga? Riba? Something like that.
Riva.
You see Bob... Feldsott describes the packing of surplus rifles in Italy assisted by the Italian military. Serial numbers are checked as they are packed.(this is all thanks to John Armstrong's work btw - these images are contained in the CD which accompanies the book) Many come from the Archives and are the only copies of the documents...
Here is a composite of all the info. I fail to see why they would remove the one unique identifier for each rifle - if this was done there'd be no way to follow any rifle unless it was restamped with a new unique # and start all over.
I too have heard this Bob - It makes little sense unless the rifles were destined for places where tracing the serial #'s was not a good idea.
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
Doesn't that price jive with the scope mounting evidence thrown into the mix?
I know Ryder recants and is not sure after his statement - which was par for the course - especially since it was 3 holes he says he drilled and the MC only has the 2.
An undated receipt with Ozzie's name on it.
Here is what Holmes offered for the price of the rifle and why it was repeated and published.... (Moyer's piece on the rifle)
The Holmes discovery is a complete fabrication, so like any other fabricated evidence which was found out - it was replaced by better and deeper evidence.
Holmes offers nothing to support his story other than the F&S ad. No PMO stub, no names of those who did the search. Nothing
Whereas the SS and USPS have Harold Marks and Robert Jackson (both ficticious names of men supposedly employees of the Fed Records Center) turn the PMO over to the SS at 10:10pm on the 23rd - Saturday.
Holmes claims it was found that morning.
This shows the SS finding it in Kansas City while the USPS recap directly conflicts.
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
Yeah, it might have saved the Bureau some embarrassment by just going with the original $12.78 and propping up the Ryder tale. It would have been easy enough to do... there was all sorts of info about it at DPD and Channel 8 over the weekend, but the actual FBI encounter with Ryder didn't take place until Monday... and so his story could have been tidied up then. But for some reason they didn't do it. Maybe they didn't trust him.
I keep thinking, though, that someone at the Bureau just misread one of the little Kleins ads and thought that the $12.78 price included rifle AND scope. You could easily make that mistake looking at the ad.
IMO, other than Marina, no one helped the cover-up artists more than Harry Holmes. Why one earth would a postal inspector be included in an Oswald interrogation at DP headquarters, and why did he alone hear Oswald say he went to Mexico City?
That the magic money order was found at two different locations, without ever going through the system, is a remarkable discovery--yours, no? Great work!! And it's so fitting for this case, in which we have a nearly endless supply of people anxious to point the finger of guilt at our boy. Curtain rod sagas from not one but two different drivers! Pissed off Cubans coming out of the woodwork right after the assassination to say how Oswald just loved Fidel. And Dallas assistant DA Jim Bowie told Joesten that not only did Julia Postal call police to the theater, but that there were really six different calls or so. Someone should make a list of all the duplicate efforts.
Bob Prudhomme Wrote:I'm going to have to search for the article that spoke about the rifles being sold off by the Italian government. From what I recall, it was only one company involved in the sale, and they sold the rifles to the importers. I distinctly recall the terms of the agreement this company made required all identifying marks, including serial nos., to be removed prior to the rifles leaving Italy. Obviously, this never occurred.
Give me a while, and I will produce the article. I wish I could recall the name of the gunsmith in Italy hired to re-condition the rifles into working order. Riga? Riba? Something like that.
Riva.
You see Bob... Feldsott describes the packing of surplus rifles in Italy assisted by the Italian military. Serial numbers are checked as they are packed.(this is all thanks to John Armstrong's work btw - these images are contained in the CD which accompanies the book) Many come from the Archives and are the only copies of the documents...
Here is a composite of all the info. I fail to see why they would remove the one unique identifier for each rifle - if this was done there'd be no way to follow any rifle unless it was restamped with a new unique # and start all over.
I too have heard this Bob - It makes little sense unless the rifles were destined for places where tracing the serial #'s was not a good idea.
Here is the article about the Italian government's sale of 500,000 Carcanos. They were reconditioned by Luciano Riva, a 5th generation Italian gunsmith and executive with the Brescia-based Breda arms company.
According to the article, Riva was to remove all identifying marks on the rifles, including serial numbers, and to stamp each rifle with Made in Italy. It seems that, by the time C2766 was shipped, Riva had stopped removing markings, and this, plus other factors, led to friction with the importers.
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.
Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
20-12-2015, 06:51 AM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2015, 07:26 AM by Tom Scully.)
David Josephs Wrote:Hey there Jim....
Doesn't that price jive with the scope mounting evidence thrown into the mix?
I know Ryder recants and is not sure after his statement - which was par for the course - especially since it was 3 holes he says he drilled and the MC only has the 2.
An undated receipt with Ozzie's name on it.
Here is what Holmes offered for the price of the rifle and why it was repeated and published.... (Moyer's piece on the rifle)
......
The Holmes discovery is a complete fabrication, so like any other fabricated evidence which was found out - it was replaced by better and deeper evidence.
Holmes offers nothing to support his story other than the F&S ad. No PMO stub, no names of those who did the search. Nothing
Whereas the SS and USPS have Harold Marks and Robert Jackson (both ficticious names of men supposedly employees of the Fed Records Center) turn the PMO over to the SS at 10:10pm on the 23rd - Saturday.
Holmes claims it was found that morning.
This shows the SS finding it in Kansas City while the USPS recap directly conflicts.
...........
I apologize for the long post. But it seems reasonable proof is treated as an annoyance, or ignored.
So this may seem overwhelming, compared to some of the specific claims.
(Yeah, but we are accurate about every one of our other claims and conclusions. Really? How deep
and thoroughly have you looked?)
Quote:Publication: http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/52423260/ The Austin American iLocation:Austin, Texas
Issue Date:Saturday, January 15, 1949Pageage 2
....Mail Pouch With $75,000 Disappears CHICAGO. Jan. 14 (INS> Post i Office Department inspectors said ; Friday that a mail pouch contain- I ing between $75.000 and $80.000 dis- ! appeared Thursday night while en i route from a Waukesha. Wis bank to Chicago. J. Harold Marks, chief postal inâ– spector in Chicago, declared that the pouch was supposed to have been placed aboard a through Soo Line tram which left Waukesha at ; 6:30 p. m. Thursday. It was due at the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago at 9 30 p. m. Marks said the pouch contained, in part, bills that had been damaged in handling and which were to be replaced with new money. He said the mutilated bills...
This is from 1959, I cannot locate a newer one. I am not wealthy and I have no money to devote to research, and some of you will count your blessings for that. Look at the bottom name and compare it to
David Josephs' claim about J. Harold Marks.:
John Harold Marks in the Virginia, Death Records, 1912-2014
[TABLE="class: table tableHorizontal tableHorizontalRuled"]
[TR]
[TH]Name:[/TH]
[TD]John Harold Marks[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Death Date:[/TH]
[TD]29 Nov 1998[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Death Place:[/TH]
[TD]Spotsylvania, Virginia, USA
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Quote:https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J24V-7Q7
Social Security Death Index
John H Marks
[TABLE="class: detail-data table-three"]
[TR="class: detail-item ng-scope"]
[TD="class: ng-binding"]Birth Date[/TD]
[TD="class: result-value, colspan: 4"] 03 Jan 1908 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: detail-item ng-scope"]
[TD="class: ng-binding"]State[/TD]
[TD="class: result-value, colspan: 4"] Virginia [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: detail-item ng-scope"]
[TD="class: ng-binding"]Event Date[/TD]
[TD="class: result-value, colspan: 4"] 29 Nov 1998[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
John Harold Marks in the U.S., Social Security Applications and Claims Index, 1936-2007
[TABLE="class: table tableHorizontal tableHorizontalRuled"]
[TR]
[TH]Name:[/TH]
[TD]John Harold Marks
[John H Marks][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]SSN:[/TH]
[TD]223606382[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Gender:[/TH]
[TD]Male[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Birth Date:[/TH]
[TD]3 Jan 1908[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Birth Place:[/TH]
[TD]Indianapolis, Indiana[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Father Name:[/TH]
[TD]Paul S Marks[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Mother Name:[/TH]
[TD]Mary Shea[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Death Date:[/TH]
[TD]29 Nov 1998[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Type of Claim:[/TH]
[TD]Original SSN.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Notes:[/TH]
[TD]Dec 1961: Name listed as JOHN HAROLD MARKS; 03 Dec 1998: Name listed as JOHN H MARKS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Ancestry.com city directory search result : (After 1980)
[TABLE="class: table tableHorizontal tableHorizontalRuled"]
[TR]
[TH]Name:[/TH]
[TD]J H Marks[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Birth Date:[/TH]
[TD]3 Jan 1908[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Address:[/TH]
[TD]1708 Oakcrest Dr, Alexandria, VA, 22302-2336
Doyle, Associate General. Counsel, and on my left is Mr. J. Harold Marks, Finance Officer, ..... the Federal Reserve bank had punched it for $<><). Mr I/CI.SKI.
Page from Hill's 1959 Alexandria, VA, City Directory :
1964 - ‎Snippet view
DOROTHY HILL GERSACK, Editor Office of Federal Records Centers National Archives and Records Service Society of ... Norman, Okla. ; Anita Jackson, Baltimore, Md.; Robert H. Jackson, Alexandria, Va. ; Mary M. Johnson, Washington, ...
Quote:http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/...2&id=I4100
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Name: Herschell Dodsworth Jackson
Given Name: Herschell Dodsworth
Surname: Jackson
Sex: M
Birth: 4 Jan 1882 in Halifax, Yorkshire, England
Death: 2 Oct 1961 in Hudson, MA [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Marriage 1 Lizzie Ramsden b: 15 Oct 1888 in West Riding, Yorkshire, England
I'll be happy to ask you a question, Tom, IF you can promise to answer it in one paragraph without attaching umpteen images and/or entirely tangential genealogical or obituary records.
Dawn Meredith
11-22-2015, 01:14 AM
I have come to the conclusion that the sole reason Tom Scully is here with all his data dumps is to attack John Armstrong.
So sick of his endless posts of old news articles that you cannot even read. At least Tommy Graves over at Ef keeps his criticism short and sweet.
Dawn
I'm a resource. If you want to read posts that reinforce what you already think and that make you smile
and nod your head, I'm probably not your kind of poster.
Tommy Graves is a disruptive presence who had contributed (remind me again) exactly what facts to the
knowledge base? Oh yeah, he got the attention of his audience by asking them if an unidentified man in a
short video clip was handing off an unidentified object to another individual.: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index....opic=18446
Graves harassed me out of my own thread, tag teaming with the Trejo spud.: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index....103&page=5
David Josephs and Jim Hargrove are the members of this forum. If either (or any other member) posts something conflicting information I have verified to be reliable, I'd want to share it with readers of this forum. I thought participating here had to do with pursuit of accurate information. I thought that onceab
out the Ed Forum until Mr. Simkin informed the world it was about protecting authors he favored. He said
he regretted not protecting Janney from my research, sooner.
I do not expect to be thanked. Peter Janney and John Simkin did not like the facts and
they attacked the messenger. When I read claims I know to be reliable, I do not linger over them.
I am a genealogical researcher. The facts in that research either mesh or conflict. This research to the
extent facts are available and checkable, is similarly performed. Verify every claim, yourself. Own what
you present or have the grace and sense to admit (and correct) when mistaken. The FBI, WC, and CIA did not do that, but the CIA does not claim to provide reliable info to anyone but the POTUS. How can I criticize official claims if I am not completely committed to present verifiable details? How can anyone?
Peter Janney's uncle was Frank Pace, chairman of General Dynamics who enlisted law partners Roswell Gilpatric and Luce's brother-in-law, Maurice "Tex" Moore, in a trade of 16 percent of Gen. Dyn. stock in exchange for Henry Crown and his Material Service Corp. of Chicago, headed by Byfield's Sherman Hotel group's Pat Hoy. The Crown family and partner Conrad Hilton next benefitted from TFX, at the time, the most costly military contract award in the history of the world. Obama was sponsored by the Crowns and Pritzkers. So was Albert Jenner Peter Janney has preferred to write of an imaginary CIA assassination of his surrogate mother, Mary Meyer, but not a word about his Uncle Frank.
age 2![[Image: child_blank.gif]](http://img.rootsweb.com/wc/child_blank.gif)
![[Image: child_is.gif]](http://img.rootsweb.com/wc/child_is.gif)