Advancing Armstrong - Putting The Puzzle Pieces Together In The Lobby

[Brian Doyle]

Richard:   We're not really that far apart...If Lee was up on the 6th Floor overseeing whatever shots or setting-up occurred then he had to come downstairs by some means...If it was the Freight or Passenger Elevator doesn't really matter technically speaking...


Ironically, it was actually Bart Kamp who brought my attention to Gil Toff's interview with Jack Dougherty in 1971 I believe...Only Kamp dealt with it by a hand-wave saying "We know that can't be right"...Kamp was simply pronouncing that since Oswald was (allegedly) Prayer Man Dougherty had to be wrong...Why otherwise intelligent people ever allowed Bart Kamp to ever reach the influential position he did in the research community I will never understand, in any case, this hand-waving avoidance of some of the most important evidence in Conspiracy research by Kamp just shows how dangerous Greg Parker and his disinformation site is to credible Conspiracy research...They led the entire research community on a wild goose chase and tied up 10 years of effort and resources for a crazy theory that originated from the fanciful imagination of evidence gremlin Parker...And equally damaging is Kamp's dismissal of Jack Dougherty's interview with Toff..

Toff's interview has to be seen in the context of Dougherty finally getting out from under the oppressive control of Truly and the other minders who literally controlled him in every interview...Once out from under the information restraint previously imposed on him Dougherty sung like a bird and told Toff outright that Oswald was up eating his Lunch in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room while Dougherty himself ate his lunch down below in the Domino Room...What Dougherty did there was confirm both Sarah Stanton's and Carolyn Arnold's witnessings...Once you understand this then you understand the true context of Truly defaming Dougherty by telling the Commission he was retarded...Truly was doing the authority's dirty work there in order to devalue any information originating from Dougherty because Truly and those authorities knew exactly what he had witnessed and knew they had to discredit it...



Another key to Dougherty is his Commission interview that is full of hints of a coached script...



    Mr. BALL. Where did you eat your lunch?

 Mr. DOUGHERTY. In the domino room.

 Mr. BALL. Now, what time did you go back to work?

 Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, at 12:30.

 Mr. BALL.. Did you know that the President was going to pass in a motorcade that noon?

 Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, they said something about it.

 Mr. BALL.. Did you intend to go out and watch him?

 Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I would have loved to have went out and watched him but the steps were so crowded-there was no way in the world I could get out there. 

Mr. BALL. Did you take a look at it-did you go out and take a look at it, or didn’t you?

 Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well-no, sir.

 Mr. BALL. Now, you were on the first floor in the domino room when you finished your lunch, didn’t you?

 Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

 Mr. BALL. And did you stay there any length of time after you finished your lunch?

 Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir-just a short length of time. 

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

 Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, then, I went back to work.

 Mr. BALL. And where did you go to work? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Let me see-oh, up to the sixth floor. 

Mr. BALL. Did you go to the sixth floor? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.  

Mr. BALL. About what time? 

Mr. DOUQHERTY. Oh, it was about 12 :4O-it was about 12 :40. 

Mr. BALL. Had you heard any shots before that? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes I heard one--it sounded like a backfire.

 Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard that shot? 

Mr. DOUQHERTY. I was on the fifth floor. 

Mr. BALL. You were on the fifth floor? 

Mr. DOUQHERTY. Yes, sir.

 Mr. BALL. Now, when you left your lunch, did you go to the fifth floor or the sixth floor to go back to work? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I went on the fifth floor when I was getting ready to go down to eat lunch.

 Mr. BALL. Yes ; and then what happened? 

Mr. DOURHERTY. Well, at that time-1 was about 10 feet away

Mr. BALL. Wait a minute-did you hear the shots before or after you had your lunch? 

Mr. DOUQHERTY. Before-before I ate my lunch. 

Mr. BALL. You heard shots before you ate your lunch? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Let’s see-yes, I believe I did. 

Mr. BALL. Well, now, you remember having your lunch, do you? 

Mr. DOUQHERTY. Yes. 

Mr. BALL. Do you remember after you had your lunch, you went back to work that day? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. 

Mr. BALL. When you talked on the day this accident happened, on the 22d of November 1963, in a statement made to the Federal Bureau of Investigation and, Mr. Dougherty, you told them you went down to the first floor to eat your lunch? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That’s right. 

Mr. BALL, And that you went back to work? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BALL. And you told him on the 19th day of December, Mr. Johnson, that you went back to work on the sixth floor, and as soon as you arrived on the sixth floor, you went down to the fifth floor to get some stock? 

Mr. DOUQHERTY. Yes, sir; that’s right. 

Mr. BALL. And while you were on the fifth door, you heard a loud noise? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That’s right-it sounded like a car backfiring. 

Mr. BALL. And did you hear more than one loud explosion or noise? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No; that was the only one I heard. 

Mr. BALL. You only heard one? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. 

Mr. BALL. And where did it sound like it came from? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. It sounded like it came from overhead somewhere. 

Mr. BALL. From overhead? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. 

Mr. BALL. How did you get to the fifth floor? 

Mr. DOUQHERTY. Elevator. 

Mr. BALL. You were on the fifth floor when you heard this, were you? 

Mr. DOUQHERTY. Yes. 

Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you take? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, you see, there’s one on this side and one on this side the one on this side is the one I took. 

Mr. BALL. Well, now, “The one on this side and the one on this side,” doesn’t mean much when it’s written down. 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I know it. 

 BALL. Can you tell me whether it was the east side or the west side elevator? 

Mr. DOUQHERTY. East side. 

Mr. BALL. Is it the one that you punch a button on? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BALL. Or the one that you use a control on? 

Mr. DOUQHERTY. It’s the one you push a button on.  

Mr. BALL. The one you push a button on? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BALL. I believe that is the west side, isn’t it? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, I believe it is. 

Mr. BALL. So, that’s the one you took up? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. 

Mr. BALL. Where did you take that-to what door? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I took it up to the sixth floor. 

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, when I got through getting stock off of the sixth floor, I came back down to the fifth floor. 

Mr. BALL. What did you do on the fifth floor? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I got some stock. 

Mr. BALL: Then what happened then? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, then immediately I heard a loud noise-it sounded like a car backfiring, and I came back down to the first floor, and I asked Eddie Piper, I said, “Piper, what was that?” I says, “Has the President been shot?” He said, “Yes.” Mr. BALL. You didn’t say-did you say, “Has the President been shot?“-you told the FBI agent that you went down to the first floor and you saw a man named Eddie Piper and asked him if he heard a loud noise. 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I asked him that too. 

Mr. BALL. And Piper said he had heard three loud noises and told you that somebody had just shot the President ; is that right? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That’s right. 

Mr. BALL. Who mentioned the fact that the President had been shot first you or Eddie Piper? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Eddie Piper. 

Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to Piper about the President being shot? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir. 

Mr. BALL. When you talked to Eddie Piper, did you know that the President had been shot? 

Mr. DOUQHERTY. No, sir ; I didn’t know that at the time. 

Mr. BALL. When is the first time you heard that the President had been shot? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. When Eddie told me that. 

Mr. BALL. Eddie told you that? 

Mr. DOUOHERTY. Yes. 

Mr. BALL. You told Mr. Johnson of the Federal Bureau of Investigation that when you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise and it appeared to have come from within the building, but you couldn’t tell where-you told him that on the 19th ; did you tell him that? 

Mr. DOUQHERTY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BALL. On the day that this happened, on the 22d of November, you told the FBI agents Ellington and Anderson that you heard “a loud explosion which sounded like a rifle shot coming from the next floor above me.” Now, did you tell them that it sounded like a rifle shot, coming from the next floor above you, or didn’t you? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well; I believe I told them it sounded like a car backfiring. 

Mr. BALL. Well, did you tell them it sounded like it was from the floor above you, or didn’t you tell them that? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. 

Mr. BALL. You did not tell them that? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No. 

Mr. BALL. Did it sound like it came from the floor above you? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, at the time it did-yes. 

Mr. BALL. Tell me this--when you heard that explosion or whatever it was that loud noise, where were you on the fifth floor-tell me exactly where you were? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I was about 10 feet from the west elevator-the west side of the elevator. 

Mr. BALL. That’s the elevator that uses the push button; is that right? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. 

Mr. BALL. And what were you doing? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I was getting some stock. 

Mr. BALL. And what did you do then? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I came on back downstairs. 

Mr. BALL. How did you come downstairs? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I used that push button elevator on the west side. 

Mr. BALL. Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I didn’t hear anybody yell. 

Mr. BALL. Or, did you see Mr. Truly? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, when the FBI men I imagine it was who it was-he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, “Mr. Truly.” He told me to go find him. Well, I didn’t know where he was so I started from the first floor and just started looking for him, and by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a g’nn and shells. 

Mr. BALL. When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found the shotgun and shells? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir; and I found out later he was on the fourth floor, which I didn’t find. 

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a gun around there? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir ; I sure didn’t. 

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see anybody with a gun in the place? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir. 

Mr. BALL. Did you see any strangers in the building that day? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir. 

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I didn’t, but some of the fellows said they did. 

Mr. BALL. Who said that? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairly good-sized package. 

Mr. BALL. When did Shelley tell you that? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, it was-the day after it happened. 

Mr. BALL Are you sure you were on the fifth floor when you heard the shots? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, I’m positive. 

Mr. BALL. Did you see any other employee on the fifth floor? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir; I didn’t see nobody-there wasn’t nobody on the fifth floor at all-it was just myself. 

Mr. BALL. You told me that just before you heard the shots, you had been on the sixth floor? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. 

Mr. BALL. And then you went down to the fifth floor? 

Mr. DOUQHERTY. That’s right. 

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody on the sixth floor when you were there, before you went to the fifth floor? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, yes; I did. 

Mr. BALL. Who? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, there was Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady. 

Mr. BALL That was in the morning, wasn’t it? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. 

Mr. BALL. That wasn’t after lunch, was it? 

Mr. DOUQEERTY. No, sir. 

Mr. BALL. After lunch, did you ever see them on the sixth floor? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir ; I didn’t. 

Mr. BALL. Now, did you hear this shot either before or after lunch? 

Mr. DOUQHERTY. It was before lunch-it was before lunch. 

Mr. BALL. You think it was before lunch you heard the shot? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I believe it was-yes, sir. 

Mr. BALL. And you were alone, were you? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes. 

Mr. BALL. That’s all I have to ask you. and this will be written up and if you would like to come down and read it and sign it, you can, or you can waive your signature. What do you want to do?  

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, whatever you want to do-it doesn’t make any difference. 

Mr. BALL. Would you like to come down and read it over and sign it? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, if you’ve got time I’ll sign it now. 

Mr. BALL. Well, we have to write it up---this has to be written up and it will be so that you can read it. This young lady will notify you and you can come down and read it over and sign it. Will you do that? 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. All right. 

Mr. BALL. And we will mark these statements as Dougherty Exhibits Nos. A, B, and C, and attach them to your deposition. Thank you very much, and goodby. 

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That’s quite all right-thank you. (Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as D




      The main clues in this forced testimony are Dougherty saying he went back upstairs at 12:30 and 12:40 respectively...Two completely different times...Neither of which give Dougherty enough time to allegedly do his work and be in front of the 5th Floor elevator when the shots rang out...


If you pay close attention to Dougherty's story he slips-up and says he heard the shot when he was 10 feet in front of the 5th Floor elevator BEFORE he went down for lunch...Ball doesn't nail Dougherty on this because Ball is aware Dougherty is reciting a coached script so he doesn't want to further confuse Dougherty but he knows he is blowing his lines...Just like Ball coached Fritz back to the official script when Fritz slipped-up and told him Oswald was in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room during the assassination, Ball does the same thing here and coaches Dougherty back to the account he told FBI on the 22nd...Dougherty could not remember the coached story he was supposed to tell so he screwed-up and told Ball he heard the shot before he went down to lunch at 12 noon...


Towards the end Dougherty screws-up again and tells Ball that he heard the shot before lunch...Instead of sorting all this out Ball decides to end the interview and adds in the convenient detail that Dougherty is going to waive his right to proofread it...Dougherty agrees...Obviously the reason Truly accuses Dougherty of mental retardation is because he couldn't remember his lines and almost gave the game away in his Commission testimony...


So knowing all this the key then becomes Dougherty's interview with Gil Toff where he assures Toff that he was aware Oswald was up eating his lunch in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room while he himself ate his lunch down below in the Domino Room...Of course, the first question that has to be asked is why Dougherty didn't tell all this to the Warren Commission?...The obvious answer is because the Commission was well aware of it and their posture towards Dougherty was one of containment and damage control...It becomes obvious that the reason Dougherty kept tripping-up and making such a glaring mistake was because he was having trouble remembering his lines...Here is Dougherty's interview with Toff:



Q:         Did anybody tell you, for instance, you like Oswald probably if he was up on the sixth floor headed truly downstairs too, cause someone saw him down there on second floor, pretty fast
JD:       Yes, they had to, but I don’t know who it was.
Q:         You don’t know what?
JD:       I don’t know who it was, who saw him come down.
Q:         Did you see him at all that day do you remember?
JD:       Well, just downstairs in the lunch room, was about all.
Q:         But that was when you were having lunch right?
JD:       Yes, uh huh.
Q:         And he was having lunch in there too?
JD:       No, I was downstairs having lunch and he was having lunch upstairs on two.
Q:         Oh he had lunch on two? And you had lunch on one?
JD:       Yes.
Q:         And did you see him have lunch before you had it or after?
JD:       That was after.
Q:         You had your lunch first and then you saw him at lunch?
JD:       Well, I come down and I saw him on two see and then I went downstairs and had mine.
Q:         And he was already in eating?
JD:       Yes uh huh.




    
      What Dougherty is saying here is that he saw Oswald in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room after he himself ate lunch...So if we analyze this we can assume that Dougherty finished eating lunch before the assassination and possibly headed back upstairs and somehow witnessed Oswald in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room on the way...Because of the information suppression and Dougherty's loose ability to describe things we will probably never know how this happened in precise detail but the strong possibility arises that Dougherty had a firm witnessing just like Stanton and Arnold of Oswald being the in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room...Linguistic Forensics show that although Dougherty was very loose in his descriptions in other cases, with this witnessing he was very short and precise saying in no uncertain terms that he saw Oswald eating in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room...He is also very precise in the fact this was after he had eaten his lunch... Dougherty knew he said too much to Toff so when Toff tried to get more detail Dougherty reverted to this all being when he went downstairs for lunch...However we know that can't be true because the 2nd Floor Lunch Room was full of secretaries when Dougherty went down to lunch at noon...


We then go back to my discovery of Sarah Stanton hearing Oswald say he intended to go back in to the 2nd Floor "Break Room", as well as Carolyn Arnold's witnessing of Oswald having carried-out that intention when she saw him in there at 12:25...We now know that Oswald was not in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room until just before Carolyn Arnold saw him at 12:25...When Mrs Reid induced the ladies to leave with the announcement of the arriving motorcade, Oswald went from the 2nd Floor staircase landing in to the 2nd Floor Lunch Room where Arnold would see him shortly after...This was the only time that Dougherty could witness Oswald eating lunch in there alone...Toff asked Dougherty "did you see him" and Dougherty responded in the affirmative...In any case, we now know for certain from all this that the Commission failed to follow-through and force Dougherty to admit he had to have gone back upstairs prior to 12:30 for him to be on the 5th Floor when he heard the shot...A prime time when it was possible to observe Oswald being alone in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room eating his lunch...


This is probably the best assembly of conspiracy evidence regarding Oswald's location during the assassination in 60 years yet those who call themselves the main researchers show no interest in it and act like it doesn't exist...To this day my incredibly important discovery of Sarah Stanton hearing Oswald say he did not intend to go out and watch the motorcade but intended to go back in to the "Break Room" instead gets no mention what so ever...And the pathetic reason is probably because of childish resentment over my refuting the popular but credulous Prayer Man theory...It is incredible that some people would put their egos before the most important evidence discovery since the HSCA...

[Brian Doyle]

As to the power being turned off for the Passenger Elevator, I'm sorry Richard but I have to go with the memory of a person for whom the event is firmly burned in to their mind by the trauma...The JFK research community is a squirrely creature because even though I might have been the only researcher to ever contact Carol Reed, and managed to get some very important information from her, no one else seems to even be interested in following-through and getting her to comment...It might even be too late now...The current community is like a primitive mob that is more interested in shunning someone to death rather than finally solving the case...Anyhow, Carol told me that when she rushed in and got to the Passenger Elevator on the 1st Floor it was dead and the call lights were out...That sounds like the power being cut to me...Whether Sawyer rode in that elevator 6 minutes later makes no difference...Actually the elevator being turned on for Sawyer makes sense because the escaping 6th Floor conspirators would have powered the elevator back up by then to make their escape...By 12:36 the Passenger Elevator would be available for Sawyer...Armstrong is a near genius but he is also somewhat of a stubborn jackass because my information could be very helpful to his theory...He cut it and myself off when I tried to tell him it was already proven that Lovelady & Shelley were seen going up the Elm St extension in Darnell at plus 30 seconds...I have to add that it is possible that the Passenger Elevator had an internal main power switch in the 5th Floor mechanical room where only the elevator could be turned off...All said and done Dougherty could have been coming down in the Freight Elevator by himself...By the time of the shots it could have just been Lee and one other conspirator on the 6th Floor...   


Page 395:

For some reason Shelley mixed up Karen Hicks with Gloria Calvery because you can see Calvery and Reed climbing the steps in Darnell...You can also see that Lovelady & Shelley ran in to Hicks at the concrete island...It is 100% proven that Lovelady & Shelley ran in to Calvery at the base of the steps near to 20 seconds after the shots where Calvery quickly told them the president had been shot...This was witnessed by Frazier who mentioned it in his statements...That information is what made Lovelady & Shelley run up to the Knoll to see for themselves...If you extrapolate the time and distance Calvery & Reed ran to Adams & Styles it shows it is possible they got down to the 1st Floor before Truly & Baker ran in...

I submit that part of the reason Lovelady & Shelley omitted their trip around the west side of the Depository in their 1st Affidavits is because they were eliminating their entire experience that included clearing Oswald as his "superintendent"...Shelley is indirectly admitting he went back in the west entrance in the rear because he says he stayed at the elevator...By placing himself at the elevator he is removing his OK-ing of Oswald in the Lobby that he really doesn't want to give the details of...


Page 396:

You make a mistake here, Richard, and call Running Woman Gloria Calvery...Running Woman, in her black skirt and white blouse, is Karen Hicks...Calvery & Reed are on the front steps already in your illustration...


Page 398:


The man all the way to the right in Altgens 6 is indeed Joe Molina...Sandy Larsen doesn't help matters by insisting the man facing Gloria Calvery on the steps in Darnell is Lovelady...That man is actually Molina as he was headed towards the Knoll...Molina made this clear in testimony when he said after the shots he drifted over to the Knoll side of the top platform...Well, there he is...You can see his bald pate in the best images...It can't be Lovelady because Larsen himself identified Lovelady going up the extension with Shelley in Darnell...Larsen then dishonorably deleted that post when he realized the timing of Lovelady being in that position meant that Frazier was facing and talking to Sarah Stanton (Prayer Man) at that moment...The Education Forum pretends to practice strict rules but apparently deleting correct evidence in order to promote knowingly-wrong evidence isn't one of them...Molina is seen encountering Calvery on the steps at plus 30 seconds...So why he said it was in the Lobby is unknown to me...


Page 402:

Shelley tells FBI that he and Lovelady went back inside after 10 minutes because he is trying to erase his OK-ing Oswald in the Lobby as his "superintendent"...Lovelady is being more truthful when he says 5 minutes, however there is a method to Lovelady's madness here...The authorities got Lovelady & Shelley to lie and say they left the steps 3 minutes after the shots because they were trying to screw-up Victoria Adams' timing of not encountering Oswald on the stairs...So the reason why Lovelady says both 5 minutes and a minute and a half is because he needs to make his false encounter with Adams both longer and then shorter in order to be on the 1st Floor when she arrives...


Page 403-404:

Lovelady & Shelley arrive back at the Lobby anywhere from 3 1/2 to 5 minutes after the shots...I am glad to see you, Richard, getting the part about Shelley being the "superintendent" correct...As you wrote, at 4 minutes after the shots Truly was still upstairs and could not possibly be the "superintendent" who cleared Oswald with the cop who stopped him in the Lobby...We are 60 years on now and all the main conspiracy sources do not seem to have latched on to this - which is why your book is important...However, I still assert that Harvey was at the west end of the Lobby when Lee stumbled down in to the Lobby on the SE staircase causing Harvey to panic and try to get out the front door...The cop saw that panic and stopped Harvey...Shelley witnessed the whole thing and knew the plot was in trouble so he stepped forward and assured the cop that Oswald was OK and not to worry about him...The cop then told Harvey to step aside...Lovelady omitted the "step aside" part to Jarman because it would have exposed his lie that Oswald then walked right out anyway after being ordered not to by a cop...Lee also realized his bungle and swung an immediate left hook turn off the stairs (see diagram) and hid in the Utility Closet where Campbell would see him...Lovelady did exactly what Harry Holmes did when he conflated the 2nd Floor Lunch Room Encounter with the Lobby Stop...Lovelady said Oswald walked right down the stairs after Truly OK-ed him...The purpose being to cover-up Shelley's bailing Harvey out and getting him around the police cordon...This scenario explains why the Commission never identified or interviewed the cop at the front door...Or why Truly never mentioned OK-ing Oswald in the Lobby...There's no excuse for that unless of course they were trying to cover-up really dangerous evidence...

[Brian Doyle]

Richard -


I think you yourself would readily admit that anything that originated from Sean Murphy should be sent back to the mill for reprocessing...

The problem with your timing for Couch/Darnell being only 22 seconds after the shots, according to Murphy and Jeff Daniels, is the fact that Calvery & Reed are already climbing the steps in Couch/Darnell...That's a problem because before that Calvery & Reed had already stopped to talk to Lovelady & Shelley at the base of the steps...

Murphy is a squirrely character and being from the Greg Parker school of research he cherry-picks and selects some evidence and ignores other...Murphy's pseudo-analysis on Lancer is designed to gain credibility by means of cross-reference between Couch and Wiegman...It gives Murphy's research the superficial appearance of rigor and, with the right sales pitch, people will never notice, like with my height analysis, that Murphy never bothered to synchronize  Calvery & Reed's run from their position in the motorcade spectators with his alleged timing for Couch...Murphy is AWOL and is officially notorious...

Since Lovelady & Shelley are well on their way up the Elm St extension by the time of Couch/Darnell that means that they are many seconds past their being informed by Calvery that the president has been shot...If indeed Lovelady & Shelley are 4 seconds past leaving Calvery at the base of the steps in Couch/Darnell then you have to subtract that from Jeff Daniel's 22 seconds - making 18 seconds...If we then apply that 18 seconds to Calvery & Reed's sprint (with Karen Hicks following-up) from their position in the spectators we can extrapolate it with Adams & Styles' run...If Calvery & Reed bolted 1 or 2 seconds after seeing Kennedy's brains blown out at close distance, and Adams & Styles left 5 seconds after the head shot, we can directly compare the distance and speed between those two adrenaline-fueled sprints...Page 402 of your book shows a good comparison of the distances covered by both sets of women...Adams & Styles covered a little more than 2/3rd's the distance and had the aid of gravity going downstairs...If indeed Calvery & Reed got to the steps in 17 seconds then 2/3rd's + of that is about 13 seconds...It is my opinion that you are underestimating how far Adams & Styles got in those 13 seconds...I think we are fairly safe assuming Adams & Styles bolted at plus 5 when Clint Hill jumped on the trunk and Mrs Garner looked over and saw the girls were already gone when the limousine went under the triple underpass...

The position of the Press Cars in Couch/Darnell should be analyzed to see if Jeff Daniels and Murphy have merit with their 22 second time...I have commonly seen Couch/Darnell referenced as being "25 to 30" seconds after the shots...The Couch/Darnell clip itself is 4 seconds in length...Murphy gives zero attention to the fact that the shorter he makes Couch/Darnell the quicker Calvery & Reed, and therefore Adams & Styles, become by inference...Calvery & Reed then become the standard measure for adrenaline-fueled fleeing women...     

I'm sorry Richard but I went to the beginning of the Couch Film, as you referenced per Murphy/Daniels, and I would like to be shown where Charles Hester can be seen ducking down...Anything sourced from Sean Murphy is now officially dubious and I cannot for the life of me see anything that shows a synchronizing of Hester between Wiegman and Couch...If you'll allow me I am going to stick with 25 to 30 seconds being the timing for Couch/Darnell...Murphy avoids synchronizing Baker himself who was well up Houston Street still at the 313 shot...He had to drive his motorcycle to the concrete island, get off it, set the kick stand, get his keys etc...So, yeah, I guess 22 seconds is possible but I would have to see it proven better than Murphy's word that he sees Hester in Couch seeing how I can't see a bloody thing...And I would also have to see it honestly considered in relation to Adams & Styles's times...There's a reason why the Commission did not do a time trial for the girls...Obviously the glaring hole in all this is Oswald's time down from the 6th Floor...The girls and Mrs Garner can only be dangerous to the official story if the girls follow my scenario and get to the steps quickly and therefore AHEAD of Oswald since Oswald did not have enough time to get there before the girls if they bolted at plus 5...I have yet to see anything from either Murphy, yourself, or Ernest that recognizes it wasn't the girls who would have seen Oswald but Mrs Garner... 

I don't have time to go get all of Styles' quotes from Ernest's website, but suffice to say I think she was gotten to, like many others, and helped scuttle her own witnessing...I believe Adams and Garner and think the girls bolted from the windows at plus 5 seconds...It makes the most sense according to the other evidence...I also think Styles is lying for the government when she says they went to the Passenger Elevator first...If they had then it is unlikely Garner would be so far behind...Garner said she followed the girls and never said anything about following them to the Passenger Elevator...It makes sense that if Garner said she heard the girls on the NW steps that they went right to them...It also makes sense that if the girls went to the Passenger Elevator that they probably would have used the SE stairs...Geneva Hine never saw the girls in that area even though they would have to be there around the same time...If you compare Calvery & Reed's run with Adams & Styles', the window to 4th Floor landing part is only a segment of the former's distance...If Calvery & Reed covered their distance in 17 seconds then Adams & Styles covered the window to 4th Floor landing in 11 seconds...That means Adams & Styles would be at the 4th Floor landing at around plus 16...That puts them at the 1st Floor at plus 40 and squeaks them out the rear Loading Dock door just ahead of Truly & Baker...But they may have shaved seconds off that 40 second estimate in a time trial...Your own admission that the girls bolted from the window at plus 5 puts them at the 2nd Floor landing at 32 seconds after the shots and 42 seconds before Baker's fastest time...You see now why I insist the girls got out before Truly & Baker...Otherwise your scenario requires the girls to take 74 seconds to reach the 2nd Floor landing when all measurements get them there 40 seconds earlier...

Even if Couch/Darnell is plus 22 Baker is still several seconds from reaching the stairs...He then runs right in to the crowded steps full of employees jamming to get back inside...Once inside he's disoriented and asking people where the stairs are...Truly is standing still in Couch/Darnell...He's got to run after Baker and also push through the employees on the stairs...He still has to catch up to Baker in the Lobby and guide him inside...

All said, I wasn't aware that Baker said he was in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room with Oswald for 30 seconds...That would make your 2nd Floor Lunch Room ships in the night theory possible, as would a plus 22 second time for Couch/Darnell - though I still prefer the out before Truly & Baker scenario...From studying the references you cited in your book I have learned that the West Elevator had some dubious business going on but I have to say that its being covered-up does not necessarily mean it was covered-up because it contained Dougherty and the Hit Team...There are many cases in the record where the conspirators covered-up everything involved with a person (for example the Lobby Stop), so the West Elevator being covered-up could have been done because of Dougherty's witnessing of Oswald in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room and not because he was the elevator man for the Hit Crew...

I'm still stunned that 13 years ago the JFK internet was a place for discussion and hammering out of ideas...It seems in the post-Fetzer/Cinque internet world evidence discussion has been discouraged and replaced with sulking resentment, grudges, and ignoring at the expense of good research...Greg Parker and Sean Murphy are probably very satisfied at the achievement they have made for COINTELPRO-like damaging of the research world...Their bogus Prayer Man theory, and the damage it has done to the previous level of evidence discussion, has succeeded in nearly totally shutting down any productive discussion of the final evidence and solving of the conspiracy...It has made the JFK internet a counter-productive morass of crony-ism, favoritism, self-entitled egos, self-promoting syndication, featuring of low skill researchers by podcast, fantasy theorizing, hostile websites, and, more importantly - zero discussion of the best evidence...

We're not far off here Richard and, if you read this thread, your theories do not necessarily conflict with mine...Even if your West Elevator theory is true it could still allow Lee in a White T-Shirt to stumble down the SE stairs in to the Lobby with Harvey at the other end of the Lobby waiting for Shelley to give him permission to leave...Harvey goes down to the Lobby from there and gets stopped by a cop and then gets bailed-out by Shelley (which you now seem to admit)...The bailed-out by Shelley part is very important because it explains a whole sector of cover-up designed to conceal the conspiracy...I respect Armstrong but he's got to come around on this...The Passenger Elevator could have been turned off by a main power switch in the 5th Floor mechanical room...

[Richard Gilbride]

Brian,

I found an enhanced version of the Couch film that clearly shows Charles Hester ducking down in front of the pergola, at approximately 7 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4GGU6-n1BM

This work by Sean Murphy and Jeff Daniels, at the Lancer forum in 2007, is rock-solid and forms a critical timing foundation for Baker & Truly's movements, Adams' & Styles movements, and the descent of the west freight elevator.

I have been over this time and time again and am equally firm in my conviction that Baker & Truly arrived at the will-call counter long before Adams & Styles arrived on the 1st floor. The men therefore arrived at the 2nd-floor lunchroom before the girls. The girls' 1st-floor arrival "seemed like a minute at the most" to Adams, but only had to be 75 seconds for the two pairs to miss each other entirely.

The men were in the lunchroom when the girls passed by. And, importantly, the men arrived at the elevator shaft well before the west elevator could have been in its ascendant phase. They didn't notice it moving and instead saw that the elevators were "both even" up on the 5th. Meaning that Dougherty's police alibi obfuscated his post-assassination reaction to hearing shots. He didn't actually bring the west elevator down until after Truly & Baker had started up the stairs.

[Brian Doyle]

The girls' 1st-floor arrival "seemed like a minute at the most" to Adams, but only had to be 75 seconds for the two pairs to miss each other entirely.

This is the problem because if we were to do a re-enactment we would find that 75 seconds was way too long for the girls to take to go from the 4th Floor window to 2nd Floor Landing...


Mrs Garner was quite clear that by the time she turned to look at the girls "They were already gone"...I assume Mrs Garner watched the limousine disappear under the overpass and then turned to comment to the girls...That was only a few seconds...


Mrs Garner heard the girls descending so we have to assume they were moving fast in order for them to be making noise...So the question here is how long the girls would have taken to bolt to the stairs after leaving the windows...I would have to imagine that a timing test would reveal a time that would be much less than 75 seconds for the girls to go from the windows to the 2nd Floor...


We already know Sean Murphy was not reliable to test other evidence that affected his claims...If we look at the Couch Film you linked the source estimates that it starts at 25 seconds after the last shot...You can see all the Elm St spectators are gone by the Stemmons sign...Gloria Calvery is already ascending the front steps...I assume that Calvery's sprint can be directly compared to Adams & Styles' so the girls are already running down the stairs at the time of Couch...Both Adams & Styles were reacting to the same event as Calvery & Reed...You can measure the distance from the 4th Floor windows to the stairs and compare it to the distance Calvery ran plus the time she took to talk to Lovelady & Shelley at the base of the steps...Baker still has to climb the crowded steps and has to stop in the Lobby...


As for Hester ducking down by the Pergola - I can't see it in the clip you provided and I would need it pointed-out to me...As we already know Murphy can be tenuous at best when it comes to evidence interpretations...


If I'm not mistaken, according to Mrs Garner's witnessing the girls are past the 2nd Floor Lunch Room at 35 seconds after the shots...For the girls to match your scenario would require them to leave 40 seconds after the shots, which would make it impossible for Mrs Garner to say by the time she looked up they were already gone...

[Richard Gilbride]

Brian, the Couch film that I linked is a fairly clear copy. The pergola area is easy to recognize. At :07 seconds, to the right of the R L Thornton sign-  a little more than half a sign-width-  in front of a light grey pergola column, the dark figure of Charles Hester distinctly crouches down in reaction to the shots. Nobody else is even near Hester at the front of the pergola.

The youtube source estimate that Couch started filming "25 seconds after the last shot" is typical junk JFK information. Mal Couch was in Camera Car 3, "15 or 20 feet" from the Main/Houston turn (headed towards the Depository), when he heard the 1st shot. (VI p. 156). He was about 50 feet from the Houston/Elm hairpin turn when the 3rd shot rang out and started filming as he rounded that turn. This was about 10 seconds after Z-313.

Because Hester's reaction links the Wiegman and Couch films, we get a fairly accurate timing estimate for when Baker reached the Depository steps-  at approximately Z-313 plus 23.5 seconds.

According to the information Barry Ernest uncovered, Adams & Styles left their 4th-floor window at approximately Z-313 plus 8 seconds, once they reacted to seeing Clint Hill jump on the limousine and saw it speed toward the Triple Underpass. 

They were in 3-inch high heels. They had to run around a group of 3 banquet-sized tables to get to the door to the warehouse (Ernest, p. 343). Adams estimated it was "50 to 70 feet" from their viewing spot to the rear office door.

Since the warehouse was loaded with books, they couldn't make a beeline, but had to hug the perimeter to get to the staircase. 

Each half-flight had 8 steps, meaning they had to descend 48 steps to get to the 1st floor, plus 3 midpoint platforms, plus 2 12-foot landings. That's a lot of ground to cover in 3-inch high heels, and they reached the 1st floor-  by my estimation-  at Z-313 plus 75 seconds.

For them to escape the 1st floor unnoticed by Truly & Baker, Adams & Styles would have had to arrive at the 1st floor by Z-313 plus 35-40 seconds, max-  which was when Truly & Baker reached the will-call counter. It was not humanly possible for the office girls to arrive in the 1st floor that fast.

Garner's information doesn't affect the Adams/Styles timeline. All she did was notice they were gone, follow after them, and hear them on the noisy wooden stairs.

Nor does Calvery's sprint affect Baker's timeline, which is supported by film evidence.

****

Brian, you are being obstinate, climbing way out on the flimsiest of tree limbs-  with your Adams/Styles reconstruction, mapped onto your Lee/Utility Closet reconstruction-  in order to support your belief that Wesley Frazier saw Harvey Oswald leave by the rear door. Which time and again throughout this thread, I have shown you is easily rebutted by the available evidence.

Frazier's allegation leads nowhere, and is not capable of being corroborated. I have maintained for several years that he made this statement so as to get in the good graces of conspiracy researchers, to deflect attention from his participation in the plot.

My friend, this can be a valuable lesson for you. Obstinacy is just what your PrayerMan adversaries do-  they are madly in love with their idea and can't process arguments that show how woeful it is. They won't listen to reason.

In order to arrive at a sustainable answer, you yourself must attempt to destroy the idea you are in love with. If it can survive your own onslaught, it should be able to survive an onslaught by others, and it is probably viable.

[Brian Doyle]

This needs to go to research community arbitration...I honestly do not see anyone ducking down at the position 1/2 a sign's length from the Thornton sign...I would please like for some skilled expert to make a clear enlargement of that segment and insert an arrow pointing to Hester ducking down because, honestly, I looked at that closely and I do not see anyone who even closely resembles someone ducking down in reaction to shots...

The time period seen in Couch/Darnell is the time it took Calvery & Reed to run to the steps, talk to Lovelady & Shelley, and allow Calvery time to climb the steps to where she is at the end of Darnell...Calvery & Reed had to jump over people (as Reed told me) and run through a crowd in the same shoes as Adams & Styles...Yet they were still well in to their known route by the time of Couch/Darnell...

But this is not the only evidence...We are at a point where Adams & Styles either passed the Lunch Room when Truly & Baker were inside or they got out just ahead of Truly & Baker on the 1st Floor...If they got out just ahead of Truly & Baker that right there tells you just how fast they were and how long it took and sets the timing for everything before it...

The 25 to 30 second time for Couch/Darnell matches the timing for Baker's trip to the 2nd Floor...Indeed, Darnell being 30 seconds matches the timing for Baker getting to the 2nd Floor Lunch Room in 75 to 90 seconds much better than Darnell being 10 to 15 seconds...

Lovelady said he turned around and saw Truly and Baker at the bottom of the front steps figuring out how they were going to go in...

The problem here is the internet has caused JFK research to be dominated by certain individuals who have retarded objective research and cooperation with their stranglehold of personal biases...It has become impossible to call out to the talent pool on the JFK internet because they are operating in a dysfunctional way where they only cooperate with subjects of their own choosing and get backed up by biased mods...This is a perfect example of a subject that needs to go to arbitration on the Education Forum and be figured out...Only the credibility-destroying domination of James Gordon and his dictatorial control of the JFK internet directly prevents this positive path forward with Gordon blaming the victims and banning anyone who challenges it...Gordon lies and says he gave those victims "chance after chance to stop their antics" when the truth is he and his stupidity and censorship are the main problem...There is no valid reason why this perfectly valid subject can't be openly discussed on the Education Forum except for Gordon corrupting the forum in favor of the Prayer Man clique...Gordon has made it impossible to settle a simple issue without him coming in with his head-chopping axe in bombastic hysterics...

[Richard Gilbride]

Brian, please give some more effort into recognizing the figure of Charles Hester. Maybe start by looking at a copy of the Wiegman film. It is jiggly, because he filmed as he was running.... but there is a clear frame of when Charles Hester stood back up...... So you can easily see him in a dark suit coat.

In the Couch film, about 70% of the width of the R L Thornton sign, to its right, in front of a light grey column in the peristyle..... The dark-suited figure of Hester is distinctly captured as he ducks down.....

The photographic work of Jeff Daniels in 2007, finding just when ..... in the jiggly Wiegman film..... just when Hester ducked down.... was the key breakthrough in linking the Wiegman & Couch films and getting a timing perspective for Baker's sprint.

This does not need arbitration. You have not done the footwork on this issue, Brian. Many other people have. Personally, I traced this through in 2009..... It is correct research, probably Sean Murphy's finest contribution....

Please slow your mind down, give it another go, and I'm sure you can find the figure of Charles Hester.

[Brian Doyle]

If you go near to the 1 minute mark in that video and slow it down to .25 speed you can just make out the man who you say is standing up in Couch...He does appear to get taller, but I still don't know how that constitutes proof...

   If you time Zapruder I believe the limousine disappears under the railroad overpass at around Z frame count 470...At 18 frames per second I believe that is around 8-9 seconds after the head shot at 313...So for your theory to be correct means that the limousine just disappeared under the overpass as Couch begins...To me that is too early according to the other cars in the motorcade and where they would be in Couch...Also Baker is off his motorcycle and running...Calvery has already spoken to Lovelady & Shelley at the base of the steps and is several steps up the front steps...Sorry - but 10 to 15 seconds is way too early for everything else to be that far along...If anything you have only reinforced my belief that Couch/Darnell is 25 to 30 seconds after the shots...And how do you know exactly when Hester got up?...Again, you present nothing to show me that 25 to 30 seconds doesn't match where Baker is in his run according to the rest of his timing that arrives at the 2nd Floor Lunch Room at 75 to 90 seconds after the shots...I am forced to say that ROKC and Sean Murphy are such dubious sources that I would insist any and everything that originates from them go to strict lengthily reviewed Peer Review and arbitration...You just can't trust anything from that nuthouse and if Murphy were credible he'd still be around...The Prayer Man people have their finger on the scale when it comes to matters like this...

I believe Couch is filming Wiegman's Press Pool two door convertible at the beginning of his film...All the motorcade cars in front of Wiegman's Press Car are already out of view beyond the overpass and I think that forces it to be well past 10 to 15 seconds...

[Richard Gilbride]

Brian, Hester crouches down in Wiegman at approximately :20, and in Couch at approximately :07. Baker arrives at the Depository steps at about 13.5 seconds in Couch. Since Wiegman started filming approximately 3 seconds before the head shot..... Baker arrives at the Depository steps at (20 - 3) = 17 plus (13.5 - 7) seconds =  17 + 6.5 = 23.5 seconds after Z-313.

You have never invested in the photographic analysis Pictures of the Pain by Richard Trask of Danvers, MA..... A virtually flawless and encyclopedic reference work on the films of the JFK assassination.

On p. 424 he informs us that "In the initial frames [of Couch] one can see the overhead traffic light hanging from a pole at the northeast tip of the sidewalk at the end of the north pergola area."  That puts Camera Car 3 just into the hairpin turn. It was not all that far behind the presidential limousine, just back about 20 feet onto Houston Street when the 1st shot rang out. At the 3rd shot they were only 50 feet away from the hairpin turn. We know the speed of all the vehicles in the motorcade, about 11 miles per hour. 

Couch started filming about 10 seconds after Z-313. Not only can we tie in Hester's action, to help confirm it was only 10 seconds. Officer Joe Smith has been extracted from the film as he ran down the Elm Street Extension.

Brian, for crying out loud.... It is your problem if you cannot process this information. People far more qualified than I, such as Jack White, have analysed the Couch timing on the Education forum..... I have to work for a living and do not have time to search for that analysis..... 

I cannot help you with this, you are as obstinate as your PrayerMan adversaries.... you dig into a position and are not capable of processing information that rebuts it.....

I will not be posting in this thread any further.