Charlotte Iserbyt: Societies Secrets

[Gary Severson]

Charles, as I said in the post he wrote the "secret society" speech and that was the subject of my discussion with him. I agree the June 10 /63 speech was more courageous and more dangerous but since I said Sorensen knew his speech of April 27/61 wasn't about "secret societies" he knew it didn't get JFK killed. He was telling me he was upset that it came to be framed that way by too many people. I see what you're saying and it may seem I suggested that a "secret society" did the deed but that isn't the case. At the same time I'm not suggesting these secret groups aren't real & effect policy since we live in an oligarchy.

[Charles Drago]

After reading through this whole thread I notice there was no discussion of the fact that a Quaker, Ted Sorensen, wrote JFK's April 27,61 speech. Sorensen was haunted until his recent death that the internet "secret society" crowd was going to result in his being remembered for JFK getting assassinated by a "secret society".

P.S.

The "secret society" interpretation of that speech as it is being argued here -- to wit, JFK was referencing Illuminati-like entities -- is recent enough a phenomenon as to invalidate a claim that Sorenson had been "haunted" -- inferentially for a very long time -- as you describe him to be.

Forgive me if I've missed a previously offered answer to this question, but when did you have the conversation with Sorensen?

[Gary Severson]

Thanks Jan, I basically agree with what you suggest Sutton is saying. I ask the question of Ed & others to see what the frames of ref. are in the discussions here. As far as your comment about not seeing withered states that is correct since Marx posited that end as a future outcome since there are no fully communist societies now.

Sorensen didn't didn't suggest there was anything deeper to the "secret society" speech. I think that the way the ref. to secret societies is said in the speech it indicates that there is no thought that the speech is about them. The ref. is used to bolster the notion that we don't like secrecy in a democracy. Of course JFK knew of the existence of these groups i.e. S&B etc. but his concern was govt. secrecy I believe IMHO.

Magda, I wasn't asking for a definition of Marxian state theory since I know what Marxism says about "the state" which is why I asked the question of Ed. If you read my post closer you will see I didn't suggest Ed made the comment about "the state" but that it was incld. in his post implying it was said in Sutton's material that Ed posted. I was asking Ed what he thought about Sutton's understanding of the significance of "the state".

Gary - I'm citing only your quote above, but considering your several posts on Anthony Sutton's comments about the influence of Hegelian Statism.

It's hard to think of a state that has withered away, according to classic Marxist theory as articulated by Magda in her post.

My own take is that Sutton was attemping to draw a direct link behind the philosophies that spawned totalitarian states and the Skull & Boners' "suppression of individualist tendencies and a careful spoon-feeding of of approved knowledge" in the US education system. And onwards into the control of adult Americans, through the dumbing down of public discourse in America, and its enclosure within carefully defined borders guarded by Mockingbirds.

I don't think the Boners would be terribly keen on the type of state control of thought that they promote "withering away".... :loco:

Thanks for the information about Ted Sorensen.

What else did he tell you about the speech, and its, ahem, deeper meanings?

[Ed Jewett]

[B] After reading through this whole thread I notice there was no discussion of the fact that a Quaker, Ted Sorensen...

Quaker? Where do you get Quaker? I have several references that suggest he was a UU...His Wikipedia entry, the first chapter of "Counselor", his obituary at The Jewiish Chronicle online ["... Mr Sorenson once commented: "As a Danish Russian Jewish Unitarian, I am surely a member of the smallest minority among the many small minorities that made this country great."], and a list by the Unitarians of great Unitarians.

[Gary Severson]

You're right Ed, I misspoke. I was thinking simultaneously about the Quakers that James Douglas described meeting with JFK and influencing his attitudes about peace before his death. Sorensen's UU attitudes also had a big influence on JFK's peace perspectives in spite of their involvement in some CIA front ops as I believe GME describes.

[Gary Severson]

Charles, the conversation with Sorensen took place Sept.25/09 at a JFK memorial conference in Grand Forks. N.D. on the occasion of the 46th aniversary, 9/25/63, of JFK's visit to UND to recieve an honorary doctorate. Sorensen, Richard Reeves et al were invited. Sorensen & Reeves gave keynotes. The conference was about the JFK Presidency & not just the assassination. It lasted 3 days with about 60 papers presented. Myself, Jim Fetzer, John Tunnheim & John Delane Williams were on a panel together to discuss the conspiracy. My part was to deal with my N.D. research which was an extension of John Armstrong's Harvey/Lee thesis.

After reading through this whole thread I notice there was no discussion of the fact that a Quaker, Ted Sorensen, wrote JFK's April 27,61 speech. Sorensen was haunted until his recent death that the internet "secret society" crowd was going to result in his being remembered for JFK getting assassinated by a "secret society".

P.S.

The "secret society" interpretation of that speech as it is being argued here -- to wit, JFK was referencing Illuminati-like entities -- is recent enough a phenomenon as to invalidate a claim that Sorenson had been "haunted" -- inferentially for a very long time -- as you describe him to be.

Forgive me if I've missed a previously offered answer to this question, but when did you have the conversation with Sorensen?

[Ed Jewett]

Thanks for the complete response Ed. I can't type fast so the post amazes me. I'm sure you have a few tricks to accomplish that though. At any rate I am not going to go into an explication of Marxism but will say that its reality caused Marx to see into its inner workings resulting in his class analysis of state capitalism as a system that needed to go away with the help of the proletariat. When classes cease to exist as Magda says we have no further need for the state as we experience it. My point is that big govt. is ultimately a problem the right and left have more agreement about than they think. I agree education, as you describe with your bibliography, will create humans that would make a stateless society possible, i.e. a "socialist man".
I would disagree with you though by saying MORE money does need to be spent on education. Not to pay teachers more necessarily but to hire more of them to cut class sizes drastically. As long as we have a class based state that generates tremendous poverty we can only compensate by having more teachers "hand making" student outcomes instead of "mass producing" them assembly line style.

You're welcome. The tricks up my sleeve are having had the bibliography digitized for some time, and having a voice recognition software package that allows me to dictate text from books rather than painstakingly type it, and the occasional use of actually drafting and polishing my posts on the side.

The intent of my "Summon The Magic" project is certainly not to create a socialist man (or woman); it is to create a self-driven individual who is capable of summoning from within themselves the knowledge, application, insight, intuition and motivation that is inherent within them as bipeds with a brain that is often poorly used or mis-used and for which few if any school systems are prepared to to teach them to harness to their own ends. Starting as eaerly as the first grade, kids can be led to discover for themselves what it is they they know, want to know, or need to know. Then they simply need coaches, tools, and resources through which they can acquire that knowledge or skill, take it back into the world of play to see how it works and performs, and re-emerge to acquire new skills and knowledge when they find a barrier, or obstruction, or performance plateau.

The two people who have benefitted most from the "Summon The Magic" material, starting at about the tenth grade with the regular "feeding" of three pages every other day of excerpts, were my two kids (now adult parents), the first of whom has retired two national sales awards [if he wins another one, he will be the first person in the history of a global leader in sports retailing to have won three of them] after having been scouted as a major league pitcher, and his kid sister whose athletic career ranked her at the top of her game as a collegian, an amateur and a professional and who has two master's degrees as of next month and who is an elementary math teacher in an inner city. [Their friends and teammates, too, but I won't bore you and everyone else with the details.]

And I disagree about the money/teaching equation... The book cited ["One Kid at a Time"] works with a system in which teachers are replaced to a great extent with learning coaches. The late George Leonard also has a book in which he postulated the role and value of a sophisticated approach using learning systems -- i.e., computers, DVD's, audio systems, simulation systems, and games. Games as a prime source of learning are well-described in lots of places... just Google "game theory of learning", or see the following,among others:

Architect for Learning: Utilizing The Internet as an Effective Educational Environment, Philip J. Palin and Kari Sandhaas, Saint Thomas Didymus Corporation, Ruckersville, VA (Telelogic Learning Company, http://www.teleologic.net).

"Video Games and the future of learning", David Williamson Shaffer, Kurt P. Squire, Richard Halverson, James P. Gee, Academic Advanced Distributed Learning Co-Laboratory, University of Wisconsin-Madison, December 2004 (http://www.academiccolab.org/resources/gappspaper1.pdf).

[Gary Severson]

You just provided a description what I would call "socialist man".

The problem with computer gaming systems relates to the original post here describing her whistleblowing experience in the US Dept. of Ed where she discovered the plan to replace teachers with computers and have coaches, i.e. minimum wage paras, coach in computerized classrooms. That enables the oligarchy to spend more on preemtive wars to export more "inverted totalitarianism". See Princeton's Sheldon Wallin's work & his description of the destruction of not just democracy but politics by the national security state.

[Gary Severson]

Charles, I don't think I inferred Sorensen was haunted for a "very long" time before his death. I think though, he may have been upset for at least 10 yrs. by the speech distorters.


Charles said,

The "secret society" interpretation of that speech as it is being argued here -- to wit, JFK was referencing Illuminati-like entities -- is recent enough a phenomenon as to invalidate a claim that Sorenson had been "haunted" -- inferentially for a very long time -- as you describe him to be.

[Charles Drago]

Gary,

I'm doubtful that the speech in question was being "distorted" for ten years prior to Sorensen's death. But surely I can be wrong on this.

Can you or anyone else reading this thread document the earliest known distortion?