It's All Been a Tremendous Lark

[Jan Klimkowski]

I too am glad Dawn just said what she said.

I am all for getting as many new people who are trying to get up to speed on the case involved.

As per Don:

I think that what happened is that the other owners warned CD about his abrasive style. And how this was turning off new people and resulting in a declining membership. Apparently, CD is CD and that is part of him. So he decided to leave. If I am wrong, please correct me.

IMO, DPF is the one forum that can rival Spartacus. It has that wide of a range plus it has some interesting posters. And most of all, there are no Von Peins, Gary Macks, and Ray Carrolls here. And I think that is what the owners designed it as.

One of the problems we have is that it is not easy to get new people interested. Mainly because there is so much disinfo out there. Which, in my view, is deliberate. But if people are exposed to the correct info, most of them understand what is important and relevant. THe problem as I perceive it from what people like Magda and Jan have written is that CD's approach was so harsh that the forum suffered overall. I mean, the guy even attacked me.

I understand CD's frustration and how it can explode in anger. And although its harder to comprehend, I also think I understand what happened to Fetzer. (I think Greg made a good stab at that.) But this is the 50th. If we are going to get new people interested, now is the time. Its a good opportunity for DPF. And I think they want to maximize it.

Jim - thank you for your kind and generous words about DPF.

Without divulging the precise nature of private discussions between the founders, we are all made differently.

I don't mind some abrasiveness.

For example, Seamus and Charles have gone very many rounds here, delivering some decent blows, a couple of TKOs and some cheap shots.

My own view is that morally, if you dish it out, you should be prepared to take some shit back. And hopefully some nuggets of insight can be salvaged from amongst the broken, bloodied, teeth.

However when entire threads degenerate into name calling, character assassination and abuse, without any truth or insight being sought or identified, I lose interest.

Again, sometimes anger and abrasiveness is justified.

The DPF members performed an invaluable public service in exposing Ralph Cinque's snake oil. Yes, there was anger, abuse, outrage. And there were also cool, considered, evidence-driven destructions of Cinque's utter nosense.

Once the unnecessary and hyperbolic nature of Cinque's "proofs" had been demonstrated, the DPF founders voted to ban him.

We dd not need to provide a continued outlet for Cinque's snake oil, nor allow abuse to spam up the forum.

Some months later, as we observed Jim Fetzer's continued "Oswald Innocence Project" garbage and peddling of Cinque's nonsense, we had another decision to make.

Fetzer is a big player in the research community, and there was an ongoing risk that his recent idiocies would be portrayed by MSM as the best the "Conspiracy Theorists" have to offer, the Gold Standard of original investigative research.

Sadly, the Professor's latest offerings shine no light on deep political events. And so we cast the Prof out as well....

I share the judgement that we are at war with the Sponsors of the Public Slaughter of JFK.

I will continue to fight against Power and Hypocrisy.

I do not regard everone who disagrees with my views on DPF as an agent provocateur.

Since the last offering from the bard Pynchon was so spectacularly misunderstood, here are some more pearls of transcendent wisdom:

But the Rocket has to be many things, it must answer to a number of different shapes in the dreams of those who touch it - in combat, in tunnel, on paper - it must survive heresies shining, unconfoundable... and heretics there will be. Gnostics who have been taken in a rush of wind and fire to chambers of the Rocket-throne... Kabbalists who study the Rocket as Torah, letter by letter - rivets, burner cup and brass rose, its text is theirs to permute and combine into new revelations, always unfolding... Manichaeans who see two Rockets, good and evil, who speak together in the sacred idiolalia of the Primal Twins (some say their names are Enzian and Blicero) of a good Rocket to take us to the stars, an evil Rocket for the world's suicide, the two perpetually in struggle.

But these heretics will be sought and the dominion of silence will enlarge as each one goes down... they will all be sought out. Each will have his personal Rocket. Stored in its target-seeker will be the heretic's EEG, the spikes and susurrations of heartbeat, the ghost-blossomings of personal infrared, each Rocket will know its intended and hunt him, ride him a green-doped and silent hound, through our World, shining and pointed in the sky at his back, his guardian executioner rushing in, rushing closer....

[Jeffrey Orling]

Amazing this represents the communications of people well past middle aged. Reads more like junior high school.

Since you don't like it here, go away....like you did before.....

"I second that emotion."
Dawn

I am interested in discussion with people about politics... justice and some of the major issues we face such as the rise of the national security state. What I don't like is when people are insulting and make ad hom attacks... which I try to ignore, but it is difficult. I can usually tell when someone can't argue the merits when the ad homs and the insults come out. It's amazing how many times I have been called a dis info agent or similar. As I know this not to be the case it is more interesting that this is how others see the someone who may not agree with them... not as someone with a different opinion or experience, but as some who has been tasked with sewing confusion and disruption. I suppose such people do exist. I have never encountered one. Mostly what you find are stubborn people with fragile egos who are too insecure to think for themselves, or to admit to an error, or learn something new, or change their understanding... and so when faced with this their response is to lash out with some form or insult.

I've been watching Chomsky a lot lately and he's really come up against a lot of insulting and irrational behavior and remains pretty cool in spite of it. And he's not afraid to face the heat from the fools of the empire. In fact they are mostly afraid of him. Very interesting.

Several members here had it in for me when I expressed a view that the towers may not have been taken down with CD... regardless of whether the event was allowed to happen and a false narrative was erected to leverage the nation into the GWOT and wars of aggression.

I still haven't received a good answer on why the wtc had to be completely destroyed and slamming planes.. hijacked or drones would not have been sufficient to achieve the outcome the conspirators wanted. In the JFK coup... the cover up seemed to have been where most of the murders occurred. Considering the magnitude of 9/11 one would have expected more people to have been silenced after the event.

[Peter Lemkin]

Charles, I can see you in my mind's eye reading this thread and listening to Jazz, sipping some wine. Do come back. While I personally thought some of your angry rebuttals were a bit over the top, I understand and SHARE your GREAT passion that we must, at all cost, save the Country soon, or loose it forever. There are agents and fools in our midst; generally, and sometimes I suspect on this Forum, as well. That said, we all need to air of the side of caution before making a condemnation of someone and, where possible, refrain from prolonged attack. I am not guiltless on this. I openly admit [as I have before], that I believe Orling is either cognitively impaired or complicit in disinformation on 911 and have, at times, confronted him on it - but often just grit my teeth and tell myself, 'Let others say so also, if they see and agree with that'; I should try to refrain being a one man 'Jury'. I know you wanted this Forum NOT to be an EF clone - we all concur [all of the founders and regular posters here]. As passionate as we are about the wrongs committed and hidden; as passionate as we are about the need for drastic and rapid exposure of the Truth and urgently needed resultant changes, we [sadly] need to temper [some] on the internet our passion, frustrations, and [yes] sometimes anger at what we perceive as fools or tools of the Propaganda Ministries. Your wealth of knowledge on JFK/Dallas; 911 and many other Deep Political events is of great value, and IMHO would be a sad and huge loss for this Forum if forever more absent. My threepence.

[Dawn Meredith]

Amazing this represents the communications of people well past middle aged. Reads more like junior high school.

Since you don't like it here, go away....like you did before.....

"I second that emotion."
Dawn

I am interested in discussion with people about politics... justice and some of the major issues we face such as the rise of the national security state. What I don't like is when people are insulting and make ad hom attacks... which I try to ignore, but it is difficult. I can usually tell when someone can't argue the merits when the ad homs and the insults come out. It's amazing how many times I have been called a dis info agent or similar. As I know this not to be the case it is more interesting that this is how others see the someone who may not agree with them... not as someone with a different opinion or experience, but as some who has been tasked with sewing confusion and disruption. I suppose such people do exist. I have never encountered one. Mostly what you find are stubborn people with fragile egos who are too insecure to think for themselves, or to admit to an error, or learn something new, or change their understanding... and so when faced with this their response is to lash out with some form or insult.

I've been watching Chomsky a lot lately and he's really come up against a lot of insulting and irrational behavior and remains pretty cool in spite of it. And he's not afraid to face the heat from the fools of the empire. In fact they are mostly afraid of him. Very interesting.

Several members here had it in for me when I expressed a view that the towers may not have been taken down with CD... regardless of whether the event was allowed to happen and a false narrative was erected to leverage the nation into the GWOT and wars of aggression.

I still haven't received a good answer on why the wtc had to be completely destroyed and slamming planes.. hijacked or drones would not have been sufficient to achieve the outcome the conspirators wanted. In the JFK coup... the cover up seemed to have been where most of the murders occurred. Considering the magnitude of 9/11 one would have expected more people to have been silenced after the event.

What doe Chomsky have to feaar? He does his master's bidding. And trust me noone is "afraid" of him. He's a left gatekeeper. Have you read his views on the assassination of JFK....that would be a good place to start if you are unaware of this. He's even written a BOOK saying no conspiracy.

I do not like the insults and ad homs here either.
Re 9-11 we agree to disagree. What makes you think many have not been "silenced"?

Dawn

[Jeffrey Orling]

What doe Chomsky have to feaar? He does his master's bidding. And trust me noone is "afraid" of him. He's a left gatekeeper. Have you read his views on the assassination of JFK....that would be a good place to start if you are unaware of this. He's even written a BOOK saying no conspiracy.

I do not like the insults and ad homs here either.
Re 9-11 we agree to disagree. What makes you think many have not been "silenced"?

Dawn

Chomsky can speak for himself. I think his position is that the bigger problem is the overarching conspiracy of capitalism and its fascist militarism which acts in all manner of unethical ways and very much predicable responses to world events.

In a sense the details don't seem to matter to him. And that may be expedient because his pitch is against capitalism and militarism. These themes are ever present regardless of who has leadership positions... or sponsors, managers and mechanics the CD model. The names change, positions passed along in old boys clubs and so forth... and identifying one set of criminals is not going to change the system which is what needs to be changed.

He's hardly a gate keeper which is a silly insult.

The 9/11 debate itself is a microcosm of the bigger theme (Russian dolls?).. the focus on CD is a distraction to how the event was used by TPTB to advance the agenda. Finding conspirators of the inside job and bringing them to justice will not guaranty that the capitalist fascist system will fall. New insiders will replace the fallen and carry on doing to the same thing.

Chomsky's analysis not providing cover for the coup... he identifies them and what they predictable did post 9/11.... which to him is the take away... not nailing insiders. The system thrives on violence. He wants to change that.

As for JFK his view is probably that the same people were in power before and after the assassination... the details don't matter as much as the nature of the state.

My take.

[Jeffrey Orling]

I am not guiltless on this. I openly admit [as I have before], that I believe Orling is either cognitively impaired or complicit in disinformation on 911 and have, at times, confronted him on it - but often just grit my teeth and tell myself, 'Let others say so also, if they see and agree with that'; I should try to refrain being a one man 'Jury'. .... 911 and many other Deep Political events is of great value, and IMHO would be a sad and huge loss for this Forum if forever more absent. My threepence.

Yours truly is hardly cognitively impaired. But I suppose that would depend on what definition of cognitive impairment is.

The charge of disinformation re 9/11 carries with it the implication that conveying false and misleading information is the intent and likely done at the behest of a *handler* or some group espousing an ideology which has no interest in facts and whose main function is to support false narratives. I certainly am not functioning on behalf of any group and my only ideology is concerned with a correct and accurate rendition of what happened to the WTC towers.

I have consistently maintained the the state has created a false narrative in service to the agenda of the MIC and the *empire*. This false narrative was made possible by the official technical reports and the (coverup) 911 Commission... which played an analogous role to the Warren Commission in the JFK assassination. In both cases we have flawed reports which do not tell what actually happened. In both cases there was no change of the powers that be. In both cases there was a ramp up of fascism and the powers of capital and the empire.

I joined DP to provide some modicum of technical expertise about the structures and how they can collapse as they did. My first participation and in fact most of it was on the Where did the Towers Go thread started I believe by Fetzer. Fetzer appears to me to not have a clue about the engineering issues or more than a very casual and limited understanding of physics. Like many who participate in the 9/11 debate Fetzer is a parrot repeating what his chosen experts have to say. He can't argue the facts and so resorts to the appeal to authority argument... and his experts such as Boldwyn happen to have made significant mistakes. Judy Wood, likewise has made many key mistakes.

We all make mistakes. Very few in the debate have done research involving data derived from the events. We've been witness to all sorts of theoretical models based on the researcher's assumptions. These are exercises in GIGO - garbage in equals garbage out.

Much of the deep political frame for 9/11 seems to hinge on the inside job... sponsors ordered it, managers organized it and mechanics carried it out. It a frame which can be imposed on any event.. someone wanted it to happen, someone organized it and someone carried it out.

The notion that the state was responsible for allowing 9/11 to develop and occur, perhaps as was the case with Pearl Harbor is an important comparison to make. Did FDR go through back channels to the Emperor to have Pearl Harbor attacked? Was part of that plan to leave the fleet vulnerable? Or perhaps the fleet wasn't vulnerable but the admirals were not vigilant enough or paranoid and distrusting of Japan? Or perhaps the generals wanted an excuse to enter the war and dropped their guard to facilitate the attack? One can come up with all manner of scenarios to explain what took place and why. What is clear is the response to the attack was predictable. And this would happen today if an attack on the US took place... What other response might one predict from the US and it's pentagon and national security state?

Chomsky makes this point on how 9/11 was manna from heaven for every state which plays the terrorism card to grab more power... and use that power to advance their goals. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7SPm-HFYLo)

I would argue that there was no need to actually DESTROY the WTC... to produce the response of the MIC/or (deep) state... Hijacked planes hitting targets would produce the cassus bellicus for the response. Obviously more destruction would have a more profound effect. But it's hard to argue that the response would have been different if the WTC was not destroyed.

So in a very real sense those arguing for CD are serving the needs of the deep state, TPTB... by arguing about details when the problem was the exisitng militarism and the imperialism of the state. The CD debate is a distraction from the much more fundamental problem... that our nation has been arguably run by the MIC since WWII. And their power has had a steady trajectory of increasing strength, corruption and control.

[Albert Doyle]

Get fucked "Doyle". How dare you question my honesty. I was over worked and overtired when I made that post and because Orling was mentioned IN it I missed who actually posted it. I have since apologised.
For your information I HAVE defended you. But guess what: it's over baby. No one calls me a liar
Yes I make mistakes but I also try to resolve as I did with Lauren. Since I see he/she is on here and has not acknowledged my public apology I will have zero more to say on that too.
People in the JFK research community know me and know I am honest and that I try to have people get along. I go too far in defending some.
So you have it ass backwards "Doyle", it is you who owe me the apology. I won't hold my breath.
Dawn

If you were referring to Orling as the other poster I apologize, I thought you were referring to me. Perhaps I overestimated my importance but as Don pointed-out you could hardly blame me after what I've been subjected to. However I do not back-off what I said about the source of Don's protest which you did not answer.


The facts are what matter and I feel they haven't been honestly discussed here. I feel that conflicts with the often touted at length philosophical purpose of this site. Charles is probably happy because his purpose has been satisfied however it was one whose origin was not answering a discussion of facts and I feel that is the issue here. I also feel ordinary discussion of those facts does not deserve the heat it created in response. It's a waste of the site's time and space and wrong mostly because it is the direct result of a false issue created by a member in order to avoid perfectly legitimate discussion of an unpopular subject. This all could have been avoided by certain posters honestly answering a few simple points.

[Jeffrey Orling]

Comments moderated

If one goes back over my participation here I did not enter the discussion with insults and ad homs. From the get go my creds were attacked and then all manner of ad homs from Lemkin, Fetzer et al ensued. As much as I tried not to stoop to the level of insults and not discuss the substance as was my original intent... it was virtually impossible because there was little of substance to refute and the discussion degenerated to a school yard cyber brawl.

This was very shabby and does not support the notion of the integrity of serious researchers who populate this site. Charles Drago got into the fray and having no ability to argue any of the technical points resorted to his nastiest bards and insults. The thread was sent to the bear pit. But it was very telling of how little too many of the members here are will to take a different look at 9/11 CD. The LIHOP concept seems to me to be in keeping of how the coup would have behaved but ackowldges that they are not the Cartesian Masters of the Universe who direct every single event on earth to further the control and agenda of the deep state. As they are in power they don't have to do THAT just leverage any event which is what LIHOP is... equally criminal and just as much a conspiracy.... but not the conspiracy that the CD people are convinced of.

So.... Why did the WTC have to be completely destroyed? Was this the plan of the Sponsors?

[Peter Lemkin]

This thread IS and SHOULD REMAIN focused on CD's decision to 'withdraw' from the Forum. Orling, you are trying to make this a 911 thread. Stop it! Now. A few others have started to veer off thread too. I was looking at John Kelin's new website, which includes as one of the several excellent articles one, by none other than CD....and it made me again think how much JFK information, wisdom and insight we will be denied should Charles decide not to return at some point. The Big Battle is shaping up in the Big D this year - but will also be fought all over the Nation for hearts and minds. The opposition has NO Truth, No Facts, Nothing but invented scenario, lies, deception, tampered-with evidence [including 'best evidence'], and a huge coverup that began BEFORE the event. They are going to try to put the American People to 'sleep' on this topic and relegate it to the likes of the Lincoln assassination [another large governmental conspiracy and coverup, by the way] - i.e. without passion and a sense of historical import to current time and events. Those of us who know, like CD did/does passionately, that it was a very clever and very evil conspiracy/coup from the highest deep levels; though there were intermediaries and 'grunts', mechanics and actors aplenty in this piece. Truth and the facts are on our side. Power and money is behind the propaganda pushing the knowingly false 'official version' in order to preserve their 'system'. Truly expose the JFK Assassination and their system, our Government, their power all crumble like a house of cards in a earthquake of 10 on the Richter scale. Charles, you are needed to help us fight the enemy; although I'm sure you will....whether here or elsewhere. Persons truly knowledgeable of most of the aspects of the case number [I'd guess] only perhaps a few thousand, amazingly....CD would be one of those truly knowledgeable minority. Most Americans, without knowing all the complex details and false trails, sense there was a conspiracy, and there was a patsy named LHO. They also mostly believe the Government was involved in some way, and is covering up the Truth it has access to. We who know, have the duty to enlighten and embolden the Public via various means - pointing to good books, articles, films, videos, lectures, just talking to everyone we know, et al. Now is the time, if ever there was one......

[Michael Griffin]

Charles, I have always found your posts to be informative and thought provoking. While it seemed that your criticism of those with whom you disagree had recently become overly harsh, I have no doubt that you can remain a purveyor of truth while moderating your tone. As you said, you do not suffer fools; but one can manage to be honest and temperate at the same time. Charles, I hope that you will reconsider and return to the forum - your voice is valued and needed!