Malaysian plane crashes on Ukraine-Russia border - live

[Danny Jarman]

Very upsetting is that the separatists are not allowing full access to the crash site yet...

The truth is much worse for the junta: the cynical blighters are.

What next?!

Vlad the Mad ate my Ukrainian hamster?

Putin Bayonetted my baby and then turned it into a Shashlyk dish. We must act now. ::face.palm::

[Paul Rigby]

Putin Bayonetted my baby and then turned it into a Shashlyk dish. We must act now. ::face.palm::

You got off lightly, mate.

[Magda Hassan]

Putin Bayonetted my baby and then turned it into a Shashlyk dish. We must act now. ::face.palm::

Multi-skilling? I like it. Most men can't do that but Putin is obviously not just any man.

[Magda Hassan]

An interesting article from Malaysia except when you get to the crap of the US 'intelligence experts'.

So Ukraine has already told Malaysia that it was their BUK which had been captured by the Ukrainian 'rebels'. And the Ukraine also knew the skies were dangerous for aircraft because of the recent downings (which they hadn't mentioned before) of their military aircraft. So where are all the air traffic control recordings? Who directed the plane to this area? No Malaysian flight had taken this route for the last 10 days, maybe longer since the search only goes back 10 days.

Malaysia

Report: Ukraine missile disclosure over MH17 downing changed everything' for civil aviation

July 20, 2014

Commercial airline operators are likely to seek new protocols regarding overflight at conflict areas after Ukraine admitted

today its intelligence knew its rebel forces had powerful anti-aircraft weapons days before Flight MH17 was shot Reuters








KUALA LUMPUR, July 20 Commercial airline operators are likely to seek new protocols regarding overflight at conflict areas after Ukraine admitted today its intelligence knew its rebel forces had powerful anti-aircraft weapons days before Flight MH17 was shot out of the Crimean sky.


Ukraine's intelligence officials told the Wall Street Journal that three Buk-M1 medium range anti-aircraft systems had fallen into rebel hands as early as July 14.

The timeline coincided with reports that a Ukrainian military Antonov AN-26 - flying at 21,000 feet and carrying eight people on board - was brought down over the Luhansk region, also on July 14.

"This has changed everything," Emirates Airlines president Tim Clark was quoted as saying by the New York-based newspaper.
"We will no longer rest on the protocols we had in place that we honestly thought were safe."
On June 29, pro-Russian rebels had reportedly boasted on social media that they had gained control of a Buk-M1 system after they took over a Ukrainian military base in Ukraine's strife-ridden eastern region.


The claim prompted the Ukrainian government to impose a partial flight ban in the region on flights cruising below 26,000 feet on July 1.

The ceiling for the ban was raised to 32,000 feet in an immediate response to the July 14 attack on the military plane.
An American defence researcher told the daily that while both Ukraine and Russia have Buk antiaircraft systems in their arsenal, he was "about 90 per cent certain" that the Malaysia Airlines plane was show down by the pro-Russia separatists "by accident".
"I would think it improbable the system would not have been provided by the Russians," Brookings Institution arms control and non-proliferation director Steven Pifer ws quoted saying.
Pentagon spokesman Rear-Admiral John Kirby said earlier that the system was sophisticated and is unlikely to have been used by the rebels without "at least some measure of Russian support and technical assistance".
Ukrainian security service counter-intelligence division chief Vitaly Nayda claimed that they detected a three-man Russian military team crossing into Ukraine's border along with one Buk missile system, which was later shipped along with two more systems to eastern Ukraine on flatbed trucks in the pre-dawn hours of July 18.
Nayda, however, did not say when the equipment crossed the border nor was it verified by US officials, with whom Nayda said the intelligence has been shared.
Russia has staunchly denied claims that it had supplied the pro-Kremlin separatists with surface-to-air missiles, which was reportedly used to shoot-down the Malaysia Airlines plane en route to Kuala Lumpur from Amsterdam.
Russian officials have also consistently denied accusations that it had trained or coordinated rebels in their sustained offensive against the Ukrainian government.
A total of 298 people died July 17 after Flight MH17 was reportedly shot out of the sky by a missile, 33,000 feet over Donetsk where government forces and pro-Russian separatists have battled over the past few months.
Both the Ukraine government and the rebel faction have denied launching the rocket, as international monitors despatched to investigate the carnage were allegedly only allowed brief stints at the crash site by Kremlin-backed rebels.
There have been concerns that the crash site was not secure, with claims of rampant looting and tampering of evidence by the rebels.

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malays...um=twitter

[Albert Doyle]

When the US shot down the Iranian airliner it was just dirty Iranians being killed. Now that another country has done the exact same thing it is non-stop propaganda on CNN and Lusitania II.

[Paul Rigby]

[video=youtube_share;28MrASx-RiM]http://youtu.be/28MrASx-RiM[/video]

The CIA-SBU lash (lyashko?) up spelt out:

This could almost be a smoking gun of the false flag attack with respect to LH 17. Some five hours after the loss of LH 17, the Ukrainian Security Service published a recording of alleged pro-Russian military officers led by commander Bes, who is based in Gorlovka (Horlivka), allegedly confirming that they shot down the Malaysian Boeing 777. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwtxBA1m9x8 The video was uploaded about 5 hours after the time of the plane's crash--20:16 PM local time.

The video tape claims that the call took place at 16:40 local time. But the plane was lost between 17:15-20 local time. The timing might be put in order if one assumes that, for some strange reason, the Ukrainian secret service decided to put their Moscow Time instead of the time in Donetsk. But this seems to be a stretch and does not appear to be warranted. It does not make sense for Ukrainian secret police to mark the time of their videos according to the time in Moscow.

Moreover, and even more importantly, as the log of the video shows (see the photo), it was actually made the day before on June 16 at 19:10 PM.

The first alleged recordings are at 16:40 and 16:33. Apparently local time. At the alleged 16:40 (still more than half an hour before the plane was supposed to crash), a person in the taped conversation claims that the plane was shot down "about half an hour ago." At 17:10 the next call is made that is telling about allegedly finding a first casualty.

Now, it is true that legendary commander Bes is based in Gorlovka. But Gorlovka is some 30 miles from the crash site in Grabovo. A Ukrainian officer was later quoted that the self-evidence has allegedly a battery of Buk missiles 15 miles way from the crash site, which still put it some 15 miles away from Gorlovka. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17...97014.html

According to the tape, the site which was supposed to fire the missile is identified as a "block-post of cossaks" in Chernokhyne near Debaltzeve, Lugansk, which is about half way between Horlivka and Grabovo but further to the east away from the line between these two places. But blockposts are not exactly positions to be equipped with Buk missiles.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Chornu...ebd586e188

Now what is also interesting is that July 17 Lh 17 flight was the FIRST ever flight which Ukrainian air controllers diverted directly over the Donetsk People's Republic away from its usual routes which avoided both the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics either to the south or to the north. Not this time. On the previous routes of LH 17 see here (scroll down the page): http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/29...etsya.html

Furthermore, Ukrainian air controllers made sure that the flight goes directly--precisely over Gorlovka (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17...ight-mh-17), which happens to have the legendary self-defense commander Bes with whom the Ukrainian secret services have a whole history of especially acute animosity and accounts to settle. His name or codename is also one of the best known and most recognizable among the self-defense commanders right after Strelkov, Babay (who is now away), Mozgavoy and Khodakovsky. So, clearly, the Ukrainian junta also wanted to pin the blame not only on the resistance as a whole, but also on a specific person with an established name and fame.

And what are the chances that out of all the places Ukrainian air controllers would send the plane just over Gorlovka and right by a place where they claim to have a knowledge about Buk missiles being stationed there? (Can anyone find any Buk missiles near Debaltzeve?)

From the trajectory is then also clear (unless self-defense did have a functioning Buk missile system and, despite the expertise which is needed for operating such a complex system, they could not distinguish and recognize a big civilian plane) that LH 17 was almost certainly not shot by a Buk missile, but that it, indeed, had to be a Ukrainian fighter jet some 10-20 miles south-east of Gorlovka.

In fact, self-defense has its own tape of a conversation of an unidentified Ukrainian jet pilot in the area exactly at the time when LH was shot down. It is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d65Adj4s5k

Thus, if this was, as it looks, a set-up and a false flag, special operation, one may also ask what plan, if any, there was about with respect the place where the aircraft would be crashing down. It is possible that the idea was that a successful hit would make the jet disintegrate in the air. However, with a big plane like this one, that's not likely. In this respect, another good question to ask is how far is the crash site from the nearest Ukrainian position. That would also be good to know.

Another interesting and relevant piece to the puzzle of LH 17 downed south-east of Donetsk: on July 15, the Kiev regime suspended its flights over east Ukraine after losing a plane. But then, in the afternoon of July 16, Ukrainian troops resumed flights of military aircraft over Donetsk and Lugansk, and especially over Saur-Mogila, which is relatively close to LH 17 crash site, a spokesman for the Ukrainian national security service reported. The flights were suspended on Tuesday after the downing of a transport plane in Lugansk Region. The resumption was confirmed by militia sources, which said airstrikes were being delivered near Saur-Mogila Hill in Donetsk region. The next day, July 18, LH 17 was directed by Ukrainian air controllers over the very zone where Ukrainian military aircraft were operating. http://rt.com/news/eastern-ukraine-army-operation-680/

Source: https://www.facebook.com/defendnovorossi...2782737100

Kiev's evidence of militia's responsibility for airliner crash faked - expert

Russia July 20, 14:37 UTC+4
A group of experts studied the tape and came to the conclusion that it was made up of numerous unrelated recordings

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/741521

MOSCOW, uly 20 /ITAR-TASS/. A tape posted by Ukrainian security services in the Internet and allegedly recording a talk between self-defense fighters about the destruction of a Malaysian airliner is a fake, experts said on Sunday.

A group of experts studied the tape and came to the conclusion that it was made up of numerous unrelated recordings.

"This audio recording is not an integral file and is made up of several fragments," said Nikolai Popov, a reputable expert in sound and voice analysis.

Specifically, the first of the three audio fragments, in which Gorlovka self-defense militia commander Igor Bezler talks about a plane shot down by the fighters, does not say anything about the type of the plane, the expert said.

At the same time, the name of the town of Yenakiyevo is clearly heard in the tape. However, the town is located about 100 km (60 miles) from the settlement of Snezhnoye where the Malaysian Boeing-777 airliner crashed.

Bezler said the talk had really taken place but the he had talked about a Ukrainian attack aircraft shot down by the militia above Yenakiyevo a day before the Malaysian airliner crash.

The tape's second fragment consists of three pieces but was presented as a single audio recording. However, a spectral and time analysis has showed that the dialog was cut into pieces and then assembled. Short pauses in the tape are very indicative: the audio file has preserved time marks which show that the dialog was assembled from various episodes, the expert said.

The tape's linguistic analysis also shows that those who made the faked tape clearly didn't have enough material and time, the expert said.

That is why, speech fragments can hardly correlate with each other in terms of their sense and the spectral picture of audio materials also differs, the expert said.

But the most indicative moment is that the audio tape clearly shows that it was created almost a day before the airliner crash, the expert said.
The Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 passenger airliner on the flight from the Dutch city of Amsterdam to the Malaysian capital of Kuala Lumpur crashed in the area of hostilities between local militias and Ukrainian governmental troops in east Ukraine's Donetsk region on Thursday, July 17.

All 298 people aboard the airliner died in the air crash.

[Magda Hassan]

Well at least there is one journalist in the UK who isn't drinking the kool aide.

Mourn the victims... but don't turn one tragedy into a global catastrophe

This is Peter Hitchens's Mail on Sunday column
One thing we should have learned in the past 100 years is that war is hell. We might also have noticed that, once begun, war is hard to stop and often takes shocking turns.

So those who began the current war in Ukraine the direct cause of the frightful murder of so many innocents on Flight MH17 on Thursday really have no excuse.
There is no doubt about who they were. In any war, the aggressor is the one who makes the first move into neutral or disputed territory.
And that aggressor was the European Union, which rivals China as the world's most expansionist power, swallowing countries the way performing seals swallow fish (16 gulped down since 1995).
Ignoring repeated and increasingly urgent warnings from Moscow, the EU backed by the USA sought to bring Ukraine into its orbit. It did so through violence and illegality, an armed mob and the overthrow of an elected president.
I warned then that this would lead to terrible conflict. I wrote in March: Having raised hopes that we cannot fulfil, we have awakened the ancient passions of this cruel part of the world and who knows where our vainglorious folly will now lead?'
Now we see. Largely unreported over the past few months, a filthy little war has been under way in Eastern Ukraine. Many innocents have died, unnoticed in the West. Neither side has anything to boast of last Tuesday 11 innocent civilians died in an airstrike on a block of flats in the town of Snizhne, which Ukraine is unconvincingly trying to blame on Russia.
So PLEASE do not be propagandised by Thursday's horrible slaughter into forgetting what is really going on. Powerful weapons make it all too easy for people to do stupid, frightful things. Wars make such things hugely more likely to happen.
In September 1983, the Soviet air force, inflamed by Cold War passions and fears, inexcusably massacred 269 people aboard a Korean Airlines 747.
In July 1988, highly trained US Navy experts aboard the cruiser Vincennes, using ultra-modern equipment, moronically mistook an Iranian Airbus, Iran Air Flight 655, for an F-14 Tomcat warplane. They shot the airliner out of the sky, killing 290 innocent people, including 66 children. All kinds of official untruths were told at the time to excuse this. In October 2001, bungling Ukrainian servicemen on exercise were the main suspects for the destruction of Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 over the Black Sea. Whoever did it, they killed 78 passengers and crew en route from Israel to Novosibirsk though Ukraine has never officially admitted guilt.
Complex quarrels about blame for such horrors are often never resolved. I am among many who do not believe that Libya had anything to do with the mass murder of those aboard Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie in December 1988, very likely an Iranian-backed retaliation for the Airbus tragedy. All the evidence points to a terror group operating from Syrian-controlled territory, and none points to Libya.
But at the time of the prosecution, we were trying to make friends with Syria, which has since gone back near the top of our enemies list but may soon be our ally again, against the fanatics of Isis. Confused? You should be.
So, let us just mourn the dead and comfort the bereaved, and regret human folly and the wickedness of war. Let us not allow this miserable event to be fanned into a new war. That is what we did almost 100 years ago, and it is about time we learned something from that.

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2...ophe-.html

[Peter Lemkin]

An interesting article from Malaysia except when you get to the crap of the US 'intelligence experts'.

So Ukraine has already told Malaysia that it was their BUK which had been captured by the Ukrainian 'rebels'. And the Ukraine also knew the skies were dangerous for aircraft because of the recent downings (which they hadn't mentioned before) of their military aircraft. So where are all the air traffic control recordings? Who directed the plane to this area? No Malaysian flight had taken this route for the last 10 days, maybe longer since the search only goes back 10 days.

Malaysia Report: Ukraine missile disclosure over MH17 downing changed everything' for civil aviation

July 20, 2014

Commercial airline operators are likely to seek new protocols regarding overflight at conflict areas after Ukraine admitted

today its intelligence knew its rebel forces had powerful anti-aircraft weapons days before Flight MH17 was shot Reuters








KUALA LUMPUR, July 20 Commercial airline operators are likely to seek new protocols regarding overflight at conflict areas after Ukraine admitted today its intelligence knew its rebel forces had powerful anti-aircraft weapons days before Flight MH17 was shot out of the Crimean sky.


Ukraine's intelligence officials told the Wall Street Journal that three Buk-M1 medium range anti-aircraft systems had fallen into rebel hands as early as July 14.

The timeline coincided with reports that a Ukrainian military Antonov AN-26 - flying at 21,000 feet and carrying eight people on board - was brought down over the Luhansk region, also on July 14.

"This has changed everything," Emirates Airlines president Tim Clark was quoted as saying by the New York-based newspaper.
"We will no longer rest on the protocols we had in place that we honestly thought were safe."
On June 29, pro-Russian rebels had reportedly boasted on social media that they had gained control of a Buk-M1 system after they took over a Ukrainian military base in Ukraine's strife-ridden eastern region.


The claim prompted the Ukrainian government to impose a partial flight ban in the region on flights cruising below 26,000 feet on July 1.

The ceiling for the ban was raised to 32,000 feet in an immediate response to the July 14 attack on the military plane.
An American defence researcher told the daily that while both Ukraine and Russia have Buk antiaircraft systems in their arsenal, he was "about 90 per cent certain" that the Malaysia Airlines plane was show down by the pro-Russia separatists "by accident".
"I would think it improbable the system would not have been provided by the Russians," Brookings Institution arms control and non-proliferation director Steven Pifer ws quoted saying.
Pentagon spokesman Rear-Admiral John Kirby said earlier that the system was sophisticated and is unlikely to have been used by the rebels without "at least some measure of Russian support and technical assistance".
Ukrainian security service counter-intelligence division chief Vitaly Nayda claimed that they detected a three-man Russian military team crossing into Ukraine's border along with one Buk missile system, which was later shipped along with two more systems to eastern Ukraine on flatbed trucks in the pre-dawn hours of July 18.
Nayda, however, did not say when the equipment crossed the border nor was it verified by US officials, with whom Nayda said the intelligence has been shared.
Russia has staunchly denied claims that it had supplied the pro-Kremlin separatists with surface-to-air missiles, which was reportedly used to shoot-down the Malaysia Airlines plane en route to Kuala Lumpur from Amsterdam.
Russian officials have also consistently denied accusations that it had trained or coordinated rebels in their sustained offensive against the Ukrainian government.
A total of 298 people died July 17 after Flight MH17 was reportedly shot out of the sky by a missile, 33,000 feet over Donetsk where government forces and pro-Russian separatists have battled over the past few months.
Both the Ukraine government and the rebel faction have denied launching the rocket, as international monitors despatched to investigate the carnage were allegedly only allowed brief stints at the crash site by Kremlin-backed rebels.
There have been concerns that the crash site was not secure, with claims of rampant looting and tampering of evidence by the rebels.

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malays...um=twitter

Two comments. One, I've heard [who can believe anything anymore without proof?] that Ukrainian intelligence has seized the voice exchanges and radar data of the flight over their territory. If we see/hear them and they are not doctored or censored, it will be hard to know. Second, if they were aware of the BUK missiles being taken [or brought in - either] and in the hands of the separatists and they using them - then no 'ceiling' for airplanes would be safe! Those SAMs can reach 30-40Km! But without a real investigation we do not know and likely will not know if it was a SAM [from any of the three parties is possible] or an air to air missile, a bomb on the plane, or other things were going on.

Yet, whatever anyone thinks of who-done-it and who's to blame, the separatists have been horrible in the way they have mis-handled the crash site. I saw video of men with metal saws cutting into the cabin area and pulling away pieces - just throwing them behind them. This is a crime scene and NOT to be touched except by experts who can tell what happened from an intact crash scene. Half of the bodies have been removed - as has at least one [some say both] flight recorder[s]. The crash scene is a bit contaminated now - but likely still contains many clues - but for how much longer?! Also, if something isn't done very soon, half of the families will get no remains back, most likely. The bodies and recorders are both evidence, as well, and shouldn't have been tampered with/moved - even if done with the best intentions. But the area is under no effective political control - and what there is is hostile to the Ukraine and 'West'. No crash inspectors were let in today. Many are already in Kiev waiting. Day three, and only a few photos and videos now are semi-valid 'evidence'.

No one is acting responsibly, IMHO.

[Danny Jarman]

An interesting article from Malaysia except when you get to the crap of the US 'intelligence experts'.

So Ukraine has already told Malaysia that it was their BUK which had been captured by the Ukrainian 'rebels'. And the Ukraine also knew the skies were dangerous for aircraft because of the recent downings (which they hadn't mentioned before) of their military aircraft. So where are all the air traffic control recordings? Who directed the plane to this area? No Malaysian flight had taken this route for the last 10 days, maybe longer since the search only goes back 10 days.

Malaysia Report: Ukraine missile disclosure over MH17 downing changed everything' for civil aviation

July 20, 2014

Commercial airline operators are likely to seek new protocols regarding overflight at conflict areas after Ukraine admitted

today its intelligence knew its rebel forces had powerful anti-aircraft weapons days before Flight MH17 was shot Reuters








KUALA LUMPUR, July 20 Commercial airline operators are likely to seek new protocols regarding overflight at conflict areas after Ukraine admitted today its intelligence knew its rebel forces had powerful anti-aircraft weapons days before Flight MH17 was shot out of the Crimean sky.


Ukraine's intelligence officials told the Wall Street Journal that three Buk-M1 medium range anti-aircraft systems had fallen into rebel hands as early as July 14.

The timeline coincided with reports that a Ukrainian military Antonov AN-26 - flying at 21,000 feet and carrying eight people on board - was brought down over the Luhansk region, also on July 14.

"This has changed everything," Emirates Airlines president Tim Clark was quoted as saying by the New York-based newspaper.
"We will no longer rest on the protocols we had in place that we honestly thought were safe."
On June 29, pro-Russian rebels had reportedly boasted on social media that they had gained control of a Buk-M1 system after they took over a Ukrainian military base in Ukraine's strife-ridden eastern region.


The claim prompted the Ukrainian government to impose a partial flight ban in the region on flights cruising below 26,000 feet on July 1.

The ceiling for the ban was raised to 32,000 feet in an immediate response to the July 14 attack on the military plane.
An American defence researcher told the daily that while both Ukraine and Russia have Buk antiaircraft systems in their arsenal, he was "about 90 per cent certain" that the Malaysia Airlines plane was show down by the pro-Russia separatists "by accident".
"I would think it improbable the system would not have been provided by the Russians," Brookings Institution arms control and non-proliferation director Steven Pifer ws quoted saying.
Pentagon spokesman Rear-Admiral John Kirby said earlier that the system was sophisticated and is unlikely to have been used by the rebels without "at least some measure of Russian support and technical assistance".
Ukrainian security service counter-intelligence division chief Vitaly Nayda claimed that they detected a three-man Russian military team crossing into Ukraine's border along with one Buk missile system, which was later shipped along with two more systems to eastern Ukraine on flatbed trucks in the pre-dawn hours of July 18.
Nayda, however, did not say when the equipment crossed the border nor was it verified by US officials, with whom Nayda said the intelligence has been shared.
Russia has staunchly denied claims that it had supplied the pro-Kremlin separatists with surface-to-air missiles, which was reportedly used to shoot-down the Malaysia Airlines plane en route to Kuala Lumpur from Amsterdam.
Russian officials have also consistently denied accusations that it had trained or coordinated rebels in their sustained offensive against the Ukrainian government.
A total of 298 people died July 17 after Flight MH17 was reportedly shot out of the sky by a missile, 33,000 feet over Donetsk where government forces and pro-Russian separatists have battled over the past few months.
Both the Ukraine government and the rebel faction have denied launching the rocket, as international monitors despatched to investigate the carnage were allegedly only allowed brief stints at the crash site by Kremlin-backed rebels.
There have been concerns that the crash site was not secure, with claims of rampant looting and tampering of evidence by the rebels.

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malays...um=twitter

Yet, whatever anyone thinks of who-done-it and who's to blame, the separatists have been horrible in the way they have mis-handled the crash site. I saw video of men with metal saws cutting into the cabin area and pulling away pieces - just throwing them behind them. This is a crime scene and NOT to be touched except by experts who can tell what happened from an intact crash scene. Half of the bodies have been removed - as has at least on flight recorder. The crash scene is contaminated now - but likely still contains many clues - but for how much longer?! Also, if something isn't done very soon, half of the families will get no remains back, most likely. It might also be possible they will 'trade' the bodies they have and flight recorder in some political 'deal'. That is not nice - and they are both evidence, as well, and shouldn't have been tampered with. But the area is under no effective political control - and what there is is hostile to the Ukraine and 'West'. As far as I know, no crash inspectors were let in today. Many are already in Kiev - including Russian ones. Day three, and only a few photos and videos now are semi-valid 'evidence'.

No one is acting responsibly, IMHO.

Not sure I can agree with this.

The OSCE have previous and can't be trusted.

[Magda Hassan]

Yet, whatever anyone thinks of who-done-it and who's to blame, the separatists have been horrible in the way they have mis-handled the crash site. I saw video of men with metal saws cutting into the cabin area and pulling away pieces - just throwing them behind them. This is a crime scene and NOT to be touched except by experts who can tell what happened from an intact crash scene. Half of the bodies have been removed - as has at least on flight recorder. The crash scene is contaminated now - but likely still contains many clues - but for how much longer?! Also, if something isn't done very soon, half of the families will get no remains back, most likely. It might also be possible they will 'trade' the bodies they have and flight recorder in some political 'deal'. That is not nice - and they are both evidence, as well, and shouldn't have been tampered with. But the area is under no effective political control - and what there is is hostile to the Ukraine and 'West'. As far as I know, no crash inspectors were let in today. Many are already in Kiev - including Russian ones. Day three, and only a few photos and videos now are semi-valid 'evidence'.

No one is acting responsibly, IMHO.

Not sure I can agree with this.

The OSCE have previous and can't be trusted.

I agree Danny. They have a bad record going back to at least the Yugoslav wars. And in any case they have been let into the area. Not sure of the status right now.