20-06-2012, 02:48 AM
"Do you think it was practical to save 1.8 million tons of debris?", asks Orling, in an obviously disingenuous and apparently-uninformed statement typical of his approach to the topic.
Setting aside the issue of how much "debris" was turned to dust, there are numerous sources found through a simple Google search with regard to how the "debris" was handled:
#1)
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/cleanup.html
An excerpt:
"The discovery of the existence of intact pieces of the Twin Towers' columns would appear to be good news for independent investigators who would like to test samples of steel. However, the locations of these pieces within the towers suggests a reason they were allowed to be preserved. The large core column sections stood on the Towers' foundations, seven stories below street level, and the perimeter column trees were from the lobby level, just above street level. Only these lower sections of the Towers were spared the blasting that shredded the steel frames down to about their fourth stories. This is evident from the facts that 18 people survived in the lower reaches of the North Tower's core, and fragments of the perimeter walls of each Tower remained standing."
#2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L_CAOZoJsI (8:20)
Text below the video:
Red Hot Debris at Ground Zero weeks after the "collapse" from smoke and small isolated office fires. The removal of debris from the collapsed areas requires the safe lifting and maneuvering of very heavy steel beams, often twisted and tangled from the force of the collapse. Some beams pulled from the wreckage are still red hot more than 7 weeks after the attack, and it is suspected that temperatures beneath the debris pile are well in excess of 1,000°F. liro.com
Joe Allbaugh, the Director of FEMA, was interviewed by Bryant Gumbel of CBS news on October 10 2001:
GUMBEL: We're seeing a lot of video of smoke pouring up from the debris.
ALLBAUGH: Correct.
GUMBEL: And we're hearing there are places where temperatures are still approaching and sometimes exceeding a thousand degrees.
ALLBAUGH: That's right.
GUMBEL: Why? Why do we have these hot spots? color(black):What's going on?
ALLBAUGH: Well, you have normal debris, you know, computers, paper, you have some areas that are hot pockets because of fuel. It's just too hot for rescuers to get into those areas. So we do not know yet what's in those areas, other than very hot, molten material. FEMA.gov
Source publication date: CBS Early Show 10/04/01
Interviewer: Bryant Gumbel
Witness: Joe Allbaugh
Date molten metal was observed: up to 10/04/01
WTC Building 6 housed several federal agencies, primarily U.S. Customs [...]. The third floornow largely inaccessiblecontained a firing range. More than 1.2 million rounds of ammunition were stored on this level, as was a vault used to store other explosives and weapons. [...] The ammunition was finally located on Oct. 24, 2001, melted together into large "bullet balls" that were extremely dangerous to handle and dispose of properly [...]
The debris pile at Ground Zero was always tremendously hot. Thermal measurements taken by helicopter each day showed underground temperatures ranging from 400ºF to more than 2,800ºF.@@ The surface was so hot that standing too long in one spot softened (and even melted) the soles of our safety shoes. Steel toes would often heat up and become intolerable. This heat was also a concern for the search-and-rescue dogs used at the site. Many were not outfitted with protective booties [...]. More than one suffered serious injuries and at least three died while working at Ground Zero. The underground fire burned for exactly 100 days and was finally declared "extinguished" on Dec. 19, 2001." asse.org, May issue 2002cached copy
"Leslie Robertson, the structural engineer responsible for World Trade Centers 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and all subgrade levels, stated "As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running." SEAU.orgarchive copy
Source publication date: SEAU News Volume VI Issue II 10/2001
Interviewer: James M.Williams October 5, 2001 National Council of Structural Engineers Associations 9th Annual Conference.
Witness: Leslie Robertson
Date molten metal was observed: up to 10/02/01
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center." -Structural Engineer Abolhassan Astanehpbs.org
I talked to many contractors and they said they actually saw molten metal trapped, beams had just totally had been melted because of the heat." -Chaplain Herb Trimpe recordonline.comaudio
Peter Tully, president of Tully Construction of Flushing, N.Y., told AFP that he saw pools of "literally molten steel" at the World Trade Center. americanfreepress.net
Source publication date: 09/03/2002
Witness: Peter Tully
Date molten metal was observed: "more than a month after the collapse" up to 10/11/01
A NY firefighter described steel flowing at ground zero. "You'd get down below and you'd see molten steel -- molten steel! -- running down the channel rails. Like you're in a foundry... like lava... from a volcano. videoLOOK AMONG THE RUINS
A reporter with rare access to the debris at ground zero "descended deep below street level to areas where underground fires still burned and steel flowed in molten streams." theatlantic.comcached_copy
Source publication date: July/August 2002 Atlantic Monthly
The owner of Controlled Demolition Inc., [Mark Loizeaux Mark Loizeaux] stated the molten steel was found "three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed,". He said molten steel was also found at [World Trade Center 7 Demolition 7 WTC] , which collapsed mysteriously in the late afternoon. americanfreepress.net
Fires burned and molten steel flowed in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet. -Sarah Atlas of New Jersey's Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue upenn.edu
"Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense," reports Alison Geyh, PhD. "In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel." jhsph.edu
[size=12]Joe Allbaugh? Yikes... Someone do some research on Joe Allbaugh, please...
#3)
The History Commons collection on the Steel Debris...
http://www.historycommons.org/context.js...eelshipped
#4-6)
Oh, avert your eyes, or shoot the messenger, or tell me this is one of the tainted sites inquiring minds aren't supposed to know about...
http://www.bollyn.com/who-sold-the-911-steel-for-scrap/
http://www.bollyn.com/who-destroyed-the-911-evidence/
http://www.bollyn.com/hugo-neu-and-the-g...eel-of-911
[/SIZE]
********
Orling says "if you cite Lynn Margulis as a 911 Truth leader..." which is an act of rhetorical dys-grace because I never cited her as a 9/11 Truth leader, I don't think she ever positioned herself as a 9/11 Truth leader, and -- Orling's correct -- I doubt she ever conducted a specific or controlled experiment or inquiry into the matter beyond exercising her right to read, associate and think. However, as a highly-recognized-by-her-peers-and-their associations scientifically-oriented mind, she is entitled to formulate an opinion. Apparently, however, Seth Kalichman "noted her position as a "9/11 Truth Seeker". [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Margulis ]
"Kalichman spent a year infiltrating HIV denialist groups. He argues that denialism is often a coping strategy, and that followers are often anti-government, anti-establishment, and prone to cognitive distortions; he says that leaders in denialism exhibit paranoid personality disorder.[3][5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Kalichman
So here is yet another case in which someone who questions authority, or challenges governmental and other statements and sources, is characterized as having cognitive, psychiatric or personality failings. This is wholly consistent with the general character and nature of previous declarations. One recent example is one in which Israel's deputy ambassador to Ireland advocated a campaign of intimidation, smears and falsifications and the suggestion of "sexual identity problems", as reported at the Irish Left Review [ http://www.irishleftreview.org/2012/06/1...advocates/ ].
Margulis on the topic at hand: http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/profe...l#Margulis
""The 9/11 tragedy is the most successful and most perverse publicity stunt in the history of public relations. I arrive at this conclusion largely as the result of the research and clear writing by David Ray Griffin in his fabulous books about 9/11. I first met him when he was a speaker at a scholarly conference unrelated to 9/11. He immediately impressed me as a brilliant, outstanding philosopher - theologian - author, a Whiteheadian scholar motivated by an intense curiosity to know everything possible about the world.
On the plane home and for the next two days I did little else but read Griffin's first book about 9/11, The New Pearl Harbor. From there I went on to read his even more disturbing account of the bogus 9/11 Commission Report, The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions, which provides overwhelming evidence that the official story is contradictory, incomplete, and unbelievable.
It is clear to me that David Ray Griffin and his fellow critics are correct: the 9/11 "new Pearl Harbor" was planned in astonishing detail and carried out through the efforts of a sophisticated and large network of operatives. It was more complex and far more successful than the Allende assassination, the US bombing of our own ship the "Maine" that began the Spanish-American war (and brought us Guam, Puerto Rico, Cuba, and the Philippines), the Reichstag fire that was used to justify the suspension of most civil liberties in Germany in the 1930's, and even Operation Himmler, which was used by Germany to justify the invasion of Poland, which started World War II.
Whoever is responsible for bringing to grisly fruition this new false-flag operation, which has been used to justify the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq as well as unprecedented assaults on research, education, and civil liberties, must be perversely proud of their efficient handiwork. Certainly, 19 young Arab men and a man in a cave 7,000 miles away, no matter the level of their anger, could not have masterminded and carried out 9/11: the most effective television commercial in the history of Western civilization.
I suggest that those of us aware and concerned demand that the glaringly erroneous official account of 9/11 be dismissed as a fraud and a new, thorough, and impartial investigation be undertaken."
********
Orling says that "We need to know more than we do now", and I'd like to offer some suggestions as to how he can accomplish that.
First, one obvious path is to open up additional sources, engage in others' perspectives (even if you don't agree or wish to hold them out at arms' length), etc.
One example [there are many, but I have a limited budget and limited time] is Jenna Orkin's "Moron's Guide to Global Collapse".
Caveat lector: Orkin was one of 12 original plaintiffs in the class-action lawsuit against Christine Todd Whitman and the Environmental Protection Agency, cites the work of her associate Michael Ruppert (notably his book Crossing the Rubicon) and examines 9/11 dominantly as an environmental disaster.
As it only arrived hours ago, I haven't had time to digest it in its entirety, but the following jumped out in the first perusal:
"How science was abused to perpetrate lies after 9/11" [pages 145-153] and
"Tactic number 5860: while holding innumerable hearings to show what a good job you're doing, make sure the press doesn't hear the people who are telling the truth" [page 179-180]
[size=12]"In response to a question from Dr. Marjorie Clark at the New York Academy of Sciences, Andrew Rivkin of The New York Times argued that it would have been "irresponsible" to report what non-government witnesses had testified."
***
"Whereas in the areas of science in finance, the weapon of the government and its mouthpiece, the media, was the soporific potion of boredomhiding be smoking-gun data in a deluge of bureaucratic documentshere, it is entertainment. 9/11 research is a rabbit-Hall of Byzantine complexity, full of snares and delusions and people will false friends, lunatics, earnest lost souls and a few heroes.
The problem is distinguishing them all. Those in charge of taking pains to muddy the waters of legitimate inquiry with muddy claims and downright howlers.
As in the case of the Kennedy assassination, where the fling of the head upon the impact of the bullet is conclusive evidence of where the bullet came from, physical evidence is hopeless. According to… [the website] www.oilempire.US: "For every PhD, there is an equal and opposite PhD." A[/SIZE]nd when it comes to the lone researcher versus the United States government,, guess who has more resources to spare on sussing out the hired guns and granting them contracts." [Orkin, op.cit., Pages 114-115]
[While not pertinent to 9/11 per se, "breakdowns and security (although there are obvious incidents and examples inside the 9/11 story, official and otherwise), her commentary (pages 62-73) on the repeated examples throughout of history of "breakdowns in security" (she cites JFK, Lennon, the attempt on Ford by Sara Moore, Anwar El-Sadat, and the comments by Benazir Bhutto (herself later assassinated) on the death of Ossama bin Laden) are an interesting read.]
***
The second part of my recommendation on how Orling and others can "know more than we do now" is to recognize and acknowledge the widespread attack on and degradation of science and its reporting by governmental powers (often in concert with corporations) and to stop worshipping at the altar of Cartesian emphases.
In simpler terms, it is useful to engage one's whole brain amidst all of the recent and current implications for body-oriented knowing.
"When we combine both thought patterns of each hemisphere, we are accomplishing the ultimate in human behavior. Not only do we enable ourselves to exhibit and maintain peak human analytical performance, we are also allowing ourselves to receive our atmospheric conditions or situations with an open mind; which concurrently brings about resolve or ideas regarding those conditions or situations."
http://www.holisticjunction.com/articles...ndset.html
Setting aside the issue of how much "debris" was turned to dust, there are numerous sources found through a simple Google search with regard to how the "debris" was handled:
#1)
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/cleanup.html
An excerpt:
"The discovery of the existence of intact pieces of the Twin Towers' columns would appear to be good news for independent investigators who would like to test samples of steel. However, the locations of these pieces within the towers suggests a reason they were allowed to be preserved. The large core column sections stood on the Towers' foundations, seven stories below street level, and the perimeter column trees were from the lobby level, just above street level. Only these lower sections of the Towers were spared the blasting that shredded the steel frames down to about their fourth stories. This is evident from the facts that 18 people survived in the lower reaches of the North Tower's core, and fragments of the perimeter walls of each Tower remained standing."
#2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L_CAOZoJsI (8:20)
Text below the video:
Red Hot Debris at Ground Zero weeks after the "collapse" from smoke and small isolated office fires. The removal of debris from the collapsed areas requires the safe lifting and maneuvering of very heavy steel beams, often twisted and tangled from the force of the collapse. Some beams pulled from the wreckage are still red hot more than 7 weeks after the attack, and it is suspected that temperatures beneath the debris pile are well in excess of 1,000°F. liro.com
Joe Allbaugh, the Director of FEMA, was interviewed by Bryant Gumbel of CBS news on October 10 2001:
GUMBEL: We're seeing a lot of video of smoke pouring up from the debris.
ALLBAUGH: Correct.
GUMBEL: And we're hearing there are places where temperatures are still approaching and sometimes exceeding a thousand degrees.
ALLBAUGH: That's right.
GUMBEL: Why? Why do we have these hot spots? color(black):What's going on?
ALLBAUGH: Well, you have normal debris, you know, computers, paper, you have some areas that are hot pockets because of fuel. It's just too hot for rescuers to get into those areas. So we do not know yet what's in those areas, other than very hot, molten material. FEMA.gov
Source publication date: CBS Early Show 10/04/01
Interviewer: Bryant Gumbel
Witness: Joe Allbaugh
Date molten metal was observed: up to 10/04/01
WTC Building 6 housed several federal agencies, primarily U.S. Customs [...]. The third floornow largely inaccessiblecontained a firing range. More than 1.2 million rounds of ammunition were stored on this level, as was a vault used to store other explosives and weapons. [...] The ammunition was finally located on Oct. 24, 2001, melted together into large "bullet balls" that were extremely dangerous to handle and dispose of properly [...]
The debris pile at Ground Zero was always tremendously hot. Thermal measurements taken by helicopter each day showed underground temperatures ranging from 400ºF to more than 2,800ºF.@@ The surface was so hot that standing too long in one spot softened (and even melted) the soles of our safety shoes. Steel toes would often heat up and become intolerable. This heat was also a concern for the search-and-rescue dogs used at the site. Many were not outfitted with protective booties [...]. More than one suffered serious injuries and at least three died while working at Ground Zero. The underground fire burned for exactly 100 days and was finally declared "extinguished" on Dec. 19, 2001." asse.org, May issue 2002cached copy
"Leslie Robertson, the structural engineer responsible for World Trade Centers 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and all subgrade levels, stated "As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running." SEAU.orgarchive copy
Source publication date: SEAU News Volume VI Issue II 10/2001
Interviewer: James M.Williams October 5, 2001 National Council of Structural Engineers Associations 9th Annual Conference.
Witness: Leslie Robertson
Date molten metal was observed: up to 10/02/01
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center." -Structural Engineer Abolhassan Astanehpbs.org
I talked to many contractors and they said they actually saw molten metal trapped, beams had just totally had been melted because of the heat." -Chaplain Herb Trimpe recordonline.comaudio
Peter Tully, president of Tully Construction of Flushing, N.Y., told AFP that he saw pools of "literally molten steel" at the World Trade Center. americanfreepress.net
Source publication date: 09/03/2002
Witness: Peter Tully
Date molten metal was observed: "more than a month after the collapse" up to 10/11/01
A NY firefighter described steel flowing at ground zero. "You'd get down below and you'd see molten steel -- molten steel! -- running down the channel rails. Like you're in a foundry... like lava... from a volcano. videoLOOK AMONG THE RUINS
A reporter with rare access to the debris at ground zero "descended deep below street level to areas where underground fires still burned and steel flowed in molten streams." theatlantic.comcached_copy
Source publication date: July/August 2002 Atlantic Monthly
The owner of Controlled Demolition Inc., [Mark Loizeaux Mark Loizeaux] stated the molten steel was found "three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed,". He said molten steel was also found at [World Trade Center 7 Demolition 7 WTC] , which collapsed mysteriously in the late afternoon. americanfreepress.net
Fires burned and molten steel flowed in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet. -Sarah Atlas of New Jersey's Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue upenn.edu
"Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense," reports Alison Geyh, PhD. "In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel." jhsph.edu
[size=12]Joe Allbaugh? Yikes... Someone do some research on Joe Allbaugh, please...
#3)
The History Commons collection on the Steel Debris...
http://www.historycommons.org/context.js...eelshipped
#4-6)
Oh, avert your eyes, or shoot the messenger, or tell me this is one of the tainted sites inquiring minds aren't supposed to know about...
http://www.bollyn.com/who-sold-the-911-steel-for-scrap/
http://www.bollyn.com/who-destroyed-the-911-evidence/
http://www.bollyn.com/hugo-neu-and-the-g...eel-of-911
[/SIZE]
********
Orling says "if you cite Lynn Margulis as a 911 Truth leader..." which is an act of rhetorical dys-grace because I never cited her as a 9/11 Truth leader, I don't think she ever positioned herself as a 9/11 Truth leader, and -- Orling's correct -- I doubt she ever conducted a specific or controlled experiment or inquiry into the matter beyond exercising her right to read, associate and think. However, as a highly-recognized-by-her-peers-and-their associations scientifically-oriented mind, she is entitled to formulate an opinion. Apparently, however, Seth Kalichman "noted her position as a "9/11 Truth Seeker". [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Margulis ]
"Kalichman spent a year infiltrating HIV denialist groups. He argues that denialism is often a coping strategy, and that followers are often anti-government, anti-establishment, and prone to cognitive distortions; he says that leaders in denialism exhibit paranoid personality disorder.[3][5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Kalichman
So here is yet another case in which someone who questions authority, or challenges governmental and other statements and sources, is characterized as having cognitive, psychiatric or personality failings. This is wholly consistent with the general character and nature of previous declarations. One recent example is one in which Israel's deputy ambassador to Ireland advocated a campaign of intimidation, smears and falsifications and the suggestion of "sexual identity problems", as reported at the Irish Left Review [ http://www.irishleftreview.org/2012/06/1...advocates/ ].
Margulis on the topic at hand: http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/profe...l#Margulis
""The 9/11 tragedy is the most successful and most perverse publicity stunt in the history of public relations. I arrive at this conclusion largely as the result of the research and clear writing by David Ray Griffin in his fabulous books about 9/11. I first met him when he was a speaker at a scholarly conference unrelated to 9/11. He immediately impressed me as a brilliant, outstanding philosopher - theologian - author, a Whiteheadian scholar motivated by an intense curiosity to know everything possible about the world.
On the plane home and for the next two days I did little else but read Griffin's first book about 9/11, The New Pearl Harbor. From there I went on to read his even more disturbing account of the bogus 9/11 Commission Report, The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions, which provides overwhelming evidence that the official story is contradictory, incomplete, and unbelievable.
It is clear to me that David Ray Griffin and his fellow critics are correct: the 9/11 "new Pearl Harbor" was planned in astonishing detail and carried out through the efforts of a sophisticated and large network of operatives. It was more complex and far more successful than the Allende assassination, the US bombing of our own ship the "Maine" that began the Spanish-American war (and brought us Guam, Puerto Rico, Cuba, and the Philippines), the Reichstag fire that was used to justify the suspension of most civil liberties in Germany in the 1930's, and even Operation Himmler, which was used by Germany to justify the invasion of Poland, which started World War II.
Whoever is responsible for bringing to grisly fruition this new false-flag operation, which has been used to justify the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq as well as unprecedented assaults on research, education, and civil liberties, must be perversely proud of their efficient handiwork. Certainly, 19 young Arab men and a man in a cave 7,000 miles away, no matter the level of their anger, could not have masterminded and carried out 9/11: the most effective television commercial in the history of Western civilization.
I suggest that those of us aware and concerned demand that the glaringly erroneous official account of 9/11 be dismissed as a fraud and a new, thorough, and impartial investigation be undertaken."
********
Orling says that "We need to know more than we do now", and I'd like to offer some suggestions as to how he can accomplish that.
First, one obvious path is to open up additional sources, engage in others' perspectives (even if you don't agree or wish to hold them out at arms' length), etc.
One example [there are many, but I have a limited budget and limited time] is Jenna Orkin's "Moron's Guide to Global Collapse".
Caveat lector: Orkin was one of 12 original plaintiffs in the class-action lawsuit against Christine Todd Whitman and the Environmental Protection Agency, cites the work of her associate Michael Ruppert (notably his book Crossing the Rubicon) and examines 9/11 dominantly as an environmental disaster.
As it only arrived hours ago, I haven't had time to digest it in its entirety, but the following jumped out in the first perusal:
"How science was abused to perpetrate lies after 9/11" [pages 145-153] and
"Tactic number 5860: while holding innumerable hearings to show what a good job you're doing, make sure the press doesn't hear the people who are telling the truth" [page 179-180]
[size=12]"In response to a question from Dr. Marjorie Clark at the New York Academy of Sciences, Andrew Rivkin of The New York Times argued that it would have been "irresponsible" to report what non-government witnesses had testified."
***
"Whereas in the areas of science in finance, the weapon of the government and its mouthpiece, the media, was the soporific potion of boredomhiding be smoking-gun data in a deluge of bureaucratic documentshere, it is entertainment. 9/11 research is a rabbit-Hall of Byzantine complexity, full of snares and delusions and people will false friends, lunatics, earnest lost souls and a few heroes.
The problem is distinguishing them all. Those in charge of taking pains to muddy the waters of legitimate inquiry with muddy claims and downright howlers.
As in the case of the Kennedy assassination, where the fling of the head upon the impact of the bullet is conclusive evidence of where the bullet came from, physical evidence is hopeless. According to… [the website] www.oilempire.US: "For every PhD, there is an equal and opposite PhD." A[/SIZE]nd when it comes to the lone researcher versus the United States government,, guess who has more resources to spare on sussing out the hired guns and granting them contracts." [Orkin, op.cit., Pages 114-115]
[While not pertinent to 9/11 per se, "breakdowns and security (although there are obvious incidents and examples inside the 9/11 story, official and otherwise), her commentary (pages 62-73) on the repeated examples throughout of history of "breakdowns in security" (she cites JFK, Lennon, the attempt on Ford by Sara Moore, Anwar El-Sadat, and the comments by Benazir Bhutto (herself later assassinated) on the death of Ossama bin Laden) are an interesting read.]
***
The second part of my recommendation on how Orling and others can "know more than we do now" is to recognize and acknowledge the widespread attack on and degradation of science and its reporting by governmental powers (often in concert with corporations) and to stop worshipping at the altar of Cartesian emphases.
In simpler terms, it is useful to engage one's whole brain amidst all of the recent and current implications for body-oriented knowing.
"When we combine both thought patterns of each hemisphere, we are accomplishing the ultimate in human behavior. Not only do we enable ourselves to exhibit and maintain peak human analytical performance, we are also allowing ourselves to receive our atmospheric conditions or situations with an open mind; which concurrently brings about resolve or ideas regarding those conditions or situations."
http://www.holisticjunction.com/articles...ndset.html
"Where is the intersection between the world's deep hunger and your deep gladness?"