John Lennon would be 70 today

[Jan Klimkowski]

Albert - the terminology matters.

With respect, in my judgement the phrase "MK-ULTRA programmed himself" mixes oranges and apples in a deeply unhelpful way.

I don't see what the big deal is. The example was obviously figurative. Besides, in the MK-ULTRA LSD world apples can very easily morph into oranges. It's a very indeterminate place.

Because mind control programming involves, at the very least, a programmer and a subject.

If someone takes drugs and becomes psychotic, that person has not "MK-ULTRA programmed himself". Your statement is highly misleading.

The main point being the point Chapman's mind had reached was similar to that induced by the MK Mengele's.

Albert - the fundamental point is whether Chapman was programmed by another person. Or not. If not, then "MK Mengeles" (whatever that phrase may mean) have nothing to do with it.

However, describing this as "MK-ULTRA self programming" does not aid our understanding of this process. The common cultural phrase for such a person is Acid Casualty.

Would not an MK-ULTRA victim also be an "acid casualty" of sorts?

No.

Syd Barrett was an acid casulty.

Syd Barrett was not, in the absence of new evidence, an MK-ULTRA casualty.

This is splitting hairs. The real business here is evidence Bresler found of typical CIA involvement in Chapman's being set-up as a Sirhan-like lunatic. What I find most telling about it is no one ever challenged Bresler's evidence.

It's absolutely not splitting hairs. Your argument is muddying the waters, rather than making the waters clearer.

Given recent developments, I am inclined to view this exchange as revealing more than bone-headed stupidity and the stubbornness of an ass...

The exchange took place on p3-4 of this thread.