Malaysian plane crashes on Ukraine-Russia border - live

[Peter Lemkin]

An interesting article from Malaysia except when you get to the crap of the US 'intelligence experts'.

So Ukraine has already told Malaysia that it was their BUK which had been captured by the Ukrainian 'rebels'. And the Ukraine also knew the skies were dangerous for aircraft because of the recent downings (which they hadn't mentioned before) of their military aircraft. So where are all the air traffic control recordings? Who directed the plane to this area? No Malaysian flight had taken this route for the last 10 days, maybe longer since the search only goes back 10 days.

Malaysia Report: Ukraine missile disclosure over MH17 downing changed everything' for civil aviation

July 20, 2014

Commercial airline operators are likely to seek new protocols regarding overflight at conflict areas after Ukraine admitted

today its intelligence knew its rebel forces had powerful anti-aircraft weapons days before Flight MH17 was shot Reuters








KUALA LUMPUR, July 20 Commercial airline operators are likely to seek new protocols regarding overflight at conflict areas after Ukraine admitted today its intelligence knew its rebel forces had powerful anti-aircraft weapons days before Flight MH17 was shot out of the Crimean sky.


Ukraine's intelligence officials told the Wall Street Journal that three Buk-M1 medium range anti-aircraft systems had fallen into rebel hands as early as July 14.

The timeline coincided with reports that a Ukrainian military Antonov AN-26 - flying at 21,000 feet and carrying eight people on board - was brought down over the Luhansk region, also on July 14.

"This has changed everything," Emirates Airlines president Tim Clark was quoted as saying by the New York-based newspaper.
"We will no longer rest on the protocols we had in place that we honestly thought were safe."
On June 29, pro-Russian rebels had reportedly boasted on social media that they had gained control of a Buk-M1 system after they took over a Ukrainian military base in Ukraine's strife-ridden eastern region.


The claim prompted the Ukrainian government to impose a partial flight ban in the region on flights cruising below 26,000 feet on July 1.

The ceiling for the ban was raised to 32,000 feet in an immediate response to the July 14 attack on the military plane.
An American defence researcher told the daily that while both Ukraine and Russia have Buk antiaircraft systems in their arsenal, he was "about 90 per cent certain" that the Malaysia Airlines plane was show down by the pro-Russia separatists "by accident".
"I would think it improbable the system would not have been provided by the Russians," Brookings Institution arms control and non-proliferation director Steven Pifer ws quoted saying.
Pentagon spokesman Rear-Admiral John Kirby said earlier that the system was sophisticated and is unlikely to have been used by the rebels without "at least some measure of Russian support and technical assistance".
Ukrainian security service counter-intelligence division chief Vitaly Nayda claimed that they detected a three-man Russian military team crossing into Ukraine's border along with one Buk missile system, which was later shipped along with two more systems to eastern Ukraine on flatbed trucks in the pre-dawn hours of July 18.
Nayda, however, did not say when the equipment crossed the border nor was it verified by US officials, with whom Nayda said the intelligence has been shared.
Russia has staunchly denied claims that it had supplied the pro-Kremlin separatists with surface-to-air missiles, which was reportedly used to shoot-down the Malaysia Airlines plane en route to Kuala Lumpur from Amsterdam.
Russian officials have also consistently denied accusations that it had trained or coordinated rebels in their sustained offensive against the Ukrainian government.
A total of 298 people died July 17 after Flight MH17 was reportedly shot out of the sky by a missile, 33,000 feet over Donetsk where government forces and pro-Russian separatists have battled over the past few months.
Both the Ukraine government and the rebel faction have denied launching the rocket, as international monitors despatched to investigate the carnage were allegedly only allowed brief stints at the crash site by Kremlin-backed rebels.
There have been concerns that the crash site was not secure, with claims of rampant looting and tampering of evidence by the rebels.

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malays...um=twitter

Two comments. One, I've heard [who can believe anything anymore without proof?] that Ukrainian intelligence has seized the voice exchanges and radar data of the flight over their territory. If we see/hear them and they are not doctored or censored, it will be hard to know. Second, if they were aware of the BUK missiles being taken [or brought in - either] and in the hands of the separatists and they using them - then no 'ceiling' for airplanes would be safe! Those SAMs can reach 30-40Km! But without a real investigation we do not know and likely will not know if it was a SAM [from any of the three parties is possible] or an air to air missile, a bomb on the plane, or other things were going on.

Yet, whatever anyone thinks of who-done-it and who's to blame, the separatists have been horrible in the way they have mis-handled the crash site. I saw video of men with metal saws cutting into the cabin area and pulling away pieces - just throwing them behind them. This is a crime scene and NOT to be touched except by experts who can tell what happened from an intact crash scene. Half of the bodies have been removed - as has at least one [some say both] flight recorder[s]. The crash scene is a bit contaminated now - but likely still contains many clues - but for how much longer?! Also, if something isn't done very soon, half of the families will get no remains back, most likely. The bodies and recorders are both evidence, as well, and shouldn't have been tampered with/moved - even if done with the best intentions. But the area is under no effective political control - and what there is is hostile to the Ukraine and 'West'. No crash inspectors were let in today. Many are already in Kiev waiting. Day three, and only a few photos and videos now are semi-valid 'evidence'.

No one is acting responsibly, IMHO.