David, Sorry, about not responding to you sooner. I've been too busy to spend much time on forums the last couple of days. Still am really so just time for a brief response. No worries Martin…knew you'd be back and around… wanted to leave a post for you to follow up on…
With regard to theReed/Ebersole disagreement, all that says to me is that there were two men who wanted to take all the credit for taking those historic X-rays. Human nature,I'm afraid. Nothing suspicious as far as I can see. Well… there's takingcredit and outright lying. Ebersole fits that bill much more so than Reed or Custer. Ebersole being senior to both Reed and Custer (even though he had onlygotten Radiology certified in July 63) and Ebersole being questioned by the charade of the HSCA medical Panel…. Wefind him not even mentioning the names Reed/Custer in 26 pages of testimony. Whereas Reed nor Custer nor Ebersole (the ONLY radiology personnel present) were called to testify for the WC. I will be starting a new post concentrating on Ebersole his HSCA testimony is a microcosm of the entire cover-up I hope you take the time to read it and comment… probably later today.
Question: how many people said they saw the head wound being enlarged/altered/manipulated/whatever BEFORE the first set of X-rays weretaken? I don't know of any. Reading the eyewitness accounts, the chronology is clear. The first thing Humes and Boswell did was take X-rays of the skull. Then they reflected the scalp, sawed the skull, and removed the brain. So before any"alteration" occurred, they had documented the head wounds. It would be greatly appreciated if you could add a timeline to your comments.
WHEN are you saying the body arrived?
WHEN are you saying the first incision occurred? WHEN was the first and last xray taken?(I will return tothis in a minute) Were you aware that the three (3) xrays in the archives of JFK's chest/abdomendo NOT have the metallic markers all the other have… and these three were determined to have been taken AFTER the organs had been removed… I challengeyou to find anyone present who stated xrays were taken AFTER the Y incision and AFTER the organs were removed. I am going to saythat if Dennis David and Boyijian are correct, the only people in the morgue with JFK between 6:35 and the first xrays is Humes, Ebersole and Boswell, possibly some seniorstaff, and Kellerman who gets there around 7pm.
Reed did indeed see Humes sawing the skull and, as I pointed out before, Humes testified to doing so in order to remove the brain. Finck, by his own admission, was not even present when the head wound was opened up and the brain was removed so he had no personal knowledge of what actually happened and was obviously mistaken. That's all there is to that. Chalking things up to simple mistakes and moving on Martin is a bit too naïve for me. Finck specifically said that no sawing of the skull was necessary. Reed sees the metal coffin on the floor surrounded by Marines (the MDW was a mix of military David's group were Marines)… this MUST be at 6:45 (remember he said he had brought the portable x-ray equipment to the morgue before 4pm and was summoned after mess hall which ended at 5:30.) Reed's ARRB p.32… after he sees the wounds he is asked to leave the morgue, he and Custer, to wait to be called TO START TAKING XRAYS… now, unless Ebersole is there at this time (again, see my essay to be posted) and takes xrays himself, and runs up to develop them himself… there were no xrays taken by Reed at this point… He and Custer arecalled back down 15-20 minutes later to begin taking Xrays… Humes and Ebersole are there when they get back and instruct them on the taking of the xrays… REED runs them up for developing leaving Ebersole in the morgue… each film takes 5-6 minutes to develop… Let me say that again Martin…each XRAY takes 5-6 minutes on the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] floor to develop (not including positioning, taking and running theses xrays up and down… EACH ONE. So one more time Martin… WHEN did JFK arrive at the morgue? WHEN did the autopsy begin? WHEN was the first incision? (the FBI reportis very helpful here)
ThePresident's body was removed from the casket in which it had been transportedand was placed on the autopsy table, at which time the complete body waswrapped in a sheet and the head area contained an additional wrapping which wassaturated with blood. Following the removal of the wrapping, it was ascertainedthat the President's clothing had been removed and it was also apparent that a tracheotomy had been performed, as well as surgery of the head area, namely,in the top of the skull. All personnel with the exception of medical officers needed in the taking ofphotographs and X-Rays were requested to leave the autopsy room and remain inan adjacent room. Upon completion ofX-Rays and photographs, the first incision was made at 8:15 p.m.
Think on this carefully Martin… please. If it takes 5-6 minutes to develop an xray… and there were at least 11 xrays according tothe same FBI report (yet we know there were many more)… Please explain when these 11-16 xrays were taken so they would be completed by 8:15. Or how there are three more xrays that supposedly show no internal organs post Y-incision yet also have no marking like the rest of the xrays… (Did Mantik ever do anything about the OTHER xrays,not of the skull?)
I'm finding your graphic confusing so can't offer much byway of meaningful comment. I'll just note that, with at least (in most cases) 15 years between the autopsy and going on the record about what they saw, I'm not surprised at all that various witnesses gave conflicting accounts, were unsure or just plain wrong about certain details. I just think it's a shame that people don't take this into consideration when they're constructing theirtheories and try to take every word each witness offered as completely factual.Such an approach is doomed to fail as anyone who has given any thought to thefrailty of human memory will understand. I'm not going to play that game either Martin… even faulty memories can be corroborated and authenticated… The WC did not call any one of the three radiologists in the absenceof the xrays and photos to help them understand what occurred. This is NOT about human frailty but orchestrated conspiracy and treason.
With regard to the graphic… The arrows suggest the camera'sPOV for the two photos… if they were taken in the Morgue there has to be aplace for the camera and the background to the photo MUST match the morgue somewhere.
WHERE would the camera be to take the left side photo so that there is a phone, tile wall, and opening? Or whateverto the left on that wall… Same for the Death Stare photo. There are NEVER wooden items in a morgue… and those that have seen the photo confirm it…
But that's beside the point… Give me the timing as YOU see it and include the taking and developing of 11 xrays prior to 8:15.
DJ
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
I agree Martin about the very long delay accounting for some differences.
But Albert brings up a good point about the weight of the brain not being recorded that night and then later it comes in at 1500 grams. I have a real problem with that and so did Noguchi at the Wecht conference in 2003.
Like many others who have studied Mantik's OD metrics, once you understand the science behind it, IMO it is very hard to deny that work. In fact, one of the best parts of Horne's books is him explaining the science. Because in his earlier days, Mantik had a problem in, let us say, doing "JFK autopsy for Beginners" language.
Now, once you understand all the damage to the brain, and really, someone should map out a chart on this, you see that what all those witnesses saw does not correspond to what the Ida Dox drawing depicts. (Does everyone know that is a false name by the way? Blakey did not want anyone tracking her down. For good reason. She was scripted as to what to depict.)
In my view, the very best part of Horne's books are what Stringer said when he was confronted with the photos of the brain. He said that he did not take those photos and what was in them did not correspond with what he recalled. He was certain he did not take them for two reasons:
1. He never used that kind of film
2. He never used that "press pack" technique. (He could tell both from the etch marks on the film.)
In my view, the case that both the photos of the brain, and the x rays of the skull have been altered is pretty much proven. And it is one of the strongest pieces of evidence we can use for the fiftieth.
Because the logical reason for having done that is to disguise the extensive damage done to the brain, which would seem to imply either: 1) A frangible type bullet, 2.) More than one bullet.
And either of those means conspiracy. But also a high level cover up after the fact.
If you recall, the autopsy used to be the way the WC defenders cinched their case. Today, its one of the most vulnerable parts of their case and one of the best points we have.
If I might ask another question ... and please do not interpret this as defense of one or the other position in this discussion, it is purely an interrogative: has there been any attempt to reconcile the notion of a single, McClelland/Carrico 5-7 cm occipital exit wound at Dallas with the pattern of debris and skull fragments scattered, not only in the limo, but in Dealey Plaza? If someone could point me to something published which at least addresses this issue, I'd love to give it a gander (if I haven't already and thus am suffering from memory lapse). I know Fiester deals with backspatter, but I don't think her argument is tightly coupled to the dimensions or exact configuration of the rearward-exiting wound. Plus she does not really deal specifically with where the bone fragments landed -- or better, where they were reported to have landed. (Not to complicate this question, I leave aside here the thorny issue of where the recovered fragments actually fit on the cranium, which is certainly a relevant question but is somewhat distinct from the one I'm asking here). Thanks!
David, Sorry, about not responding to you sooner. I've been too busy to spend much time on forums the last couple of days. Still am really so just time for a brief response. No worries Martin…knew you'd be back and around… wanted to leave a post for you to follow up on…
With regard to theReed/Ebersole disagreement, all that says to me is that there were two men who wanted to take all the credit for taking those historic X-rays. Human nature,I'm afraid. Nothing suspicious as far as I can see. Well… there's takingcredit and outright lying. Ebersole fits that bill much more so than Reed or Custer. Ebersole being senior to both Reed and Custer (even though he had onlygotten Radiology certified in July 63) and Ebersole being questioned by the charade of the HSCA medical Panel…. Wefind him not even mentioning the names Reed/Custer in 26 pages of testimony. Whereas Reed nor Custer nor Ebersole (the ONLY radiology personnel present) were called to testify for the WC. I will be starting a new post concentrating on Ebersole his HSCA testimony is a microcosm of the entire cover-up I hope you take the time to read it and comment… probably later today.
Question: how many people said they saw the head wound being enlarged/altered/manipulated/whatever BEFORE the first set of X-rays weretaken? I don't know of any. Reading the eyewitness accounts, the chronology is clear. The first thing Humes and Boswell did was take X-rays of the skull. Then they reflected the scalp, sawed the skull, and removed the brain. So before any"alteration" occurred, they had documented the head wounds. It would be greatly appreciated if you could add a timeline to your comments.
WHEN are you saying the body arrived?
WHEN are you saying the first incision occurred? WHEN was the first and last xray taken?(I will return tothis in a minute) Were you aware that the three (3) xrays in the archives of JFK's chest/abdomendo NOT have the metallic markers all the other have… and these three were determined to have been taken AFTER the organs had been removed… I challengeyou to find anyone present who stated xrays were taken AFTER the Y incision and AFTER the organs were removed. I am going to saythat if Dennis David and Boyijian are correct, the only people in the morgue with JFK between 6:35 and the first xrays is Humes, Ebersole and Boswell, possibly some seniorstaff, and Kellerman who gets there around 7pm.
Reed did indeed see Humes sawing the skull and, as I pointed out before, Humes testified to doing so in order to remove the brain. Finck, by his own admission, was not even present when the head wound was opened up and the brain was removed so he had no personal knowledge of what actually happened and was obviously mistaken. That's all there is to that. Chalking things up to simple mistakes and moving on Martin is a bit too naïve for me. Finck specifically said that no sawing of the skull was necessary. Reed sees the metal coffin on the floor surrounded by Marines (the MDW was a mix of military David's group were Marines)… this MUST be at 6:45 (remember he said he had brought the portable x-ray equipment to the morgue before 4pm and was summoned after mess hall which ended at 5:30.) Reed's ARRB p.32… after he sees the wounds he is asked to leave the morgue, he and Custer, to wait to be called TO START TAKING XRAYS… now, unless Ebersole is there at this time (again, see my essay to be posted) and takes xrays himself, and runs up to develop them himself… there were no xrays taken by Reed at this point… He and Custer arecalled back down 15-20 minutes later to begin taking Xrays… Humes and Ebersole are there when they get back and instruct them on the taking of the xrays… REED runs them up for developing leaving Ebersole in the morgue… each film takes 5-6 minutes to develop… Let me say that again Martin…each XRAY takes 5-6 minutes on the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] floor to develop (not including positioning, taking and running theses xrays up and down… EACH ONE. So one more time Martin… WHEN did JFK arrive at the morgue? WHEN did the autopsy begin? WHEN was the first incision? (the FBI reportis very helpful here)
ThePresident's body was removed from the casket in which it had been transportedand was placed on the autopsy table, at which time the complete body waswrapped in a sheet and the head area contained an additional wrapping which wassaturated with blood. Following the removal of the wrapping, it was ascertainedthat the President's clothing had been removed and it was also apparent that a tracheotomy had been performed, as well as surgery of the head area, namely,in the top of the skull. All personnel with the exception of medical officers needed in the taking ofphotographs and X-Rays were requested to leave the autopsy room and remain inan adjacent room. Upon completion ofX-Rays and photographs, the first incision was made at 8:15 p.m.
Think on this carefully Martin… please. If it takes 5-6 minutes to develop an xray… and there were at least 11 xrays according tothe same FBI report (yet we know there were many more)… Please explain when these 11-16 xrays were taken so they would be completed by 8:15. Or how there are three more xrays that supposedly show no internal organs post Y-incision yet also have no marking like the rest of the xrays… (Did Mantik ever do anything about the OTHER xrays,not of the skull?)
I'm finding your graphic confusing so can't offer much byway of meaningful comment. I'll just note that, with at least (in most cases) 15 years between the autopsy and going on the record about what they saw, I'm not surprised at all that various witnesses gave conflicting accounts, were unsure or just plain wrong about certain details. I just think it's a shame that people don't take this into consideration when they're constructing theirtheories and try to take every word each witness offered as completely factual.Such an approach is doomed to fail as anyone who has given any thought to thefrailty of human memory will understand. I'm not going to play that game either Martin… even faulty memories can be corroborated and authenticated… The WC did not call any one of the three radiologists in the absenceof the xrays and photos to help them understand what occurred. This is NOT about human frailty but orchestrated conspiracy and treason.
With regard to the graphic… The arrows suggest the camera'sPOV for the two photos… if they were taken in the Morgue there has to be aplace for the camera and the background to the photo MUST match the morgue somewhere.
WHERE would the camera be to take the left side photo so that there is a phone, tile wall, and opening? Or whateverto the left on that wall… Same for the Death Stare photo. There are NEVER wooden items in a morgue… and those that have seen the photo confirm it…
But that's beside the point… Give me the timing as YOU see it and include the taking and developing of 11 xrays prior to 8:15.
DJ
David, you ask for a time line. I have supplied one per Reed. Why not address that? There are serious conflicts between it and your theory of body alteration IMO.
Quote:David, you ask for a time line. I have supplied one per Reed. Why not address that? There are serious conflicts between it and your theory of body alteration IMO.
I have, repeatedly.
Reed arrived at the same time as the metal casket... He sees a shipping casket and sees the body with Humes, Ebersole and Boswell among others....
No Sibert, No O'Neill, No ceremonial casket, No Greer... I have Reed's AARB testomony in front of me as anyone can... please quote page and line # for reference
Let's keep this short and sweet...
According to what you understand,
1) when did JFK arrive at the morgue, in which casket, and who brings him in?
2) when was the first xray taken and by whom?
3) when was the last xray taken and by whom?
4) how many xrays were taken?
The President's body wasremoved from the casket in which it had been transported and was placed on theautopsy table, at which time the complete body was wrapped in a sheet and thehead area contained an additional wrapping which was saturated with blood.Following the removal of the wrapping, it was ascertained that the President'sclothing had been removed and it was also apparent that a tracheotomy had beenperformed, as well as surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of theskull. All personnel with the exception of medical officers needed in the taking ofphotographs and X-Rays were requested to leave the autopsy room and remain inan adjacent room. Upon completion of X-Rays and photographs, the firstincision was made at 8:15 p.m.
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
You Write: "I challenge you to find anyone present who stated xrays were taken AFTER the Y incision and AFTER the organs were removed."
I already did. Dr. Finck wrote in his report to General Blumberg that "The brain, the heart and the lungs had been removed before my arrival." He then goes on to say that after probing of the back wound failed to reveal the location of a bullet, "I suggest X ray films be taken...of the entire body, before going any further withthe autopsy. This radiologic survey does not reveal any major missile in the President's cadaver." (ARRB MD28) That's what he said. Whether he is correct or not I do not know. He's certainlyc ontradicted by a good number of witnesses.
Youwrite: "WHEN are you saying the body arrived?"
The record is obviously muddled and contradictory and I will not pretend to know exactly when the body arrived. Nor will I pretend to see it as a big deal. Humes said in his ARRB deposition that it was somewhere around 6:45 to 7:00 P.M. Francis O'Neil said the body arrived at the morgue between 7:00 and 7:05. James Sibert apparently told Arlen Specter that preparation for the autopsy began 7:17. So I guess I'd go for somewhere around the 7 P.M. mark.
You write: "WHEN are you saying the first incision occurred?"
I'd say Sibert and O'Neil's report is the best evidence we have on this, being contemporaneous. So approximately 8:15 P.M.
Youwrite: "WHEN was the first and last xray taken?( I will return to this in a minute)"
I don't know and neither do you. No one that I know of noted the exact times.
David, I'm still struggling to see what you're getting at here. I guess you're trying to say that there wasn't enough time for all the X-rays to have been taken before the first incision. It seems to me that they had around an hour and that's plenty of time but I'm sure you'll disagree. But the thing is, the testimony establishes that the X-rays of the skull were taken before the skull wound was enlarged. Therefore the X-rays show the wound in its original state. What more needs to be said? If you're suggesting that there was a secret pre-autopsy in which the head wound was enlarged BEFORE the X-rays were taken, then why do the X-rays show the occipital bone largely intact? Were the X-rays altered to hide the alteration? If so, what was the point of the alteration? Please explain what you're getting at.
You say that when Ed Reed arrives "he see a shipping casket and sees the body with Humes, Ebersole and Boswell among others....No Sibert, No O'Neill, No ceremonial casket, No Greer". Where in his deposition does he say that? When is he asked who was present when he arrived?
In 2003 I explained Mantik's visits to the Archives measuring optical density and finding a fraudulent "patch" on the lateral, and a false "6.5 mm artifact" on the AP to our radiologist who was quite receptive. You know, bones, density--that being kind of what they do.
As well, I found Mantik in Murder in Dealey Plaza and in the following excerpt from his Thomas review to be very good:
More to the point, when I performed my own reconstruction, using a real skull X-ray (the only such attempt ever made, to my knowledge, under fluoroscopic guidance), the Harper fragment ended up mostly in the occipital area (see my Figure 5 here).
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4890[/ATTACH]
And of course, there was no brain in the stainless container, yet it weighed 1500 grams (over average) while such witnesses as Paul O'Connor would beg to differ.
Albert Rossi, you have a zip file of questions there to unpack.
I think Jackie went after a tortilla on the trunk and Clint Hill grabbed her (hand)
Gee, the Harper fragment wound up in a counterintuitive place
(as though the president and evidence were broken into a thousand pieces and scattered to the wind)
As for witnesses--we might keep in mind Warren Reynolds, Domingo Benevidez, Antonio Veciana who got a V-8 face palm
Anomalies abound; ten million words were bound but not indexed, cherry-picked to support the a priori plausible denial
Stringer in Holmes could not be more clear
Not my work, not the medium
Add Custer who cited for Gunn a missing T-3/4
Those inconvenient fragments would not see the light of day
David J., You Write: "I challenge you to find anyone present who stated xrays were taken AFTER the Y incision and AFTER the organs were removed."
I already did. Dr. Finck wrotein his report to General Blumberg that "The brain, the heart and the lungs hadbeen removed before my arrival." He then goes on to say that after probing of the back wound failed to reveal the location of a bullet, "I suggest X rayfilms be taken...of the entire body, before going any further with the autopsy. This radiologic survey does not reveal any major missile in the President'scadaver." (ARRB MD28) That's what he said. Whether he is correct or not I donot know. He's certainly contradicted by a good number of witnesses.
Martin Finck asking that xrays be taken again, and them actually being taken are two separate things. The FBI report states that "Uponc ompletion of X-Rays and photographs, the first incision was made at 8:15 p.m." At the bottom of this ginourmous post we find that when all the xrays/photos were done, they waited for Finck to arrive....
Mr. CORNWELL. Approximately whattime of the day or night did the autopsy begin? Dr. HumEs. Well, the President'sbody, as I recall, arrived about 7:35, 7:40 in the evening and after somepreliminary examinations, about 8 or 8:15. Mr. CORNWELL. Just very briefly, inwhat order or sequence did you conduct the autopsy? Dr. HumEs. Well, the first thing we did was make manyphotographs which we knew would obviously be required for a wide variety ofpurposes, took basically whole bodyX-rays and then proceeded with theexamination of the two wounds that we very shortly detected were present,starting with the wound in the head and proceeding to the wound in the backof the neck, upper thorax.
More importantly is Ebersole telling usthe SS asked that the chest and head xrays be taken TWICE… which he says HAD to be completed before the beginning of the autopsy. If you can provide any evidence that xrays were actually taken and developed AFTER the Y incision, please post….Finck "asking" is not the same as it being done.
You write: "WHEN are you saying the body arrived?"
The record is obviously muddled and contradictory and I will notpretend to know exactly when the body arrived. Nor will I pretend to see it asa big deal. Humes said in his ARRB deposition that it was somewhere around 6:45to 7:00 P.M. Francis O'Neil said the body arrived at the morgue between 7:00and 7:05. James Sibert apparently told Arlen Specter that preparation for theautopsy began 7:17. So I guess I'd go for somewhere around the 7 P.M. mark.
As you can tell I'm going tohave a real problem with this… The limo with the casket did not arrive at Bethesda until 7pm. Humes goes on later to tell us he viewed the body at6:45… Ebersole says just after 6:30, Reed says just after 6:30… in a metal shipping casket… As much as you'd like to simply dismiss this evidence out of inconvenience… it must be addressed in the overallscheme of the thing.
The Joint Casket Bearer Teambrings in A CASKET at 8pm… what were they doing if JFK was in the morgue at 7pm? The SS/FBI men wheeling in the bronze casket at 7:17 after meeting up with Kellerman who comes out the morgue door is recounted in MANY reports from a variety of angles…. Did this happen?
Dr. Ebersole tells us that whenhe saw the body unwrapped
Upon removing the body from thecoffin, the anterior aspect, the only things noticeable were a small irregularecumonic (sic no such word) areaabove the super ecolobular (sic no such word) ridge and a neatly sutured transverse surgical wound across the low neck. REALLY?
So prior to starting the autopsywe were asked to x ray the body to determine the presence of a bullet. Wetook several X rays of the skull, chest, trunk. These were taken in theautopsy room on the autopsy table. They were hand carried by me in theircassettes to what we designate as Tower Four, the forth (sic) floor of thehospital, handled by a dark room technician, given back to me and hand carriedby me to the autopsy room.
The initial films showed theusual metallic fragments in the skull but no evidence of a slug, a bullet. Thiswas a little bit disconcerting. We were asked by the Secret Service agentspresent to repeat the films and did so Once again there was no evidence of abullet
Martin this is all occurring BEFORE the start of the autopsy, BEFORE the first incision. 4 xrays of the head, twice; 8 xrays of the arms and legs; 4 xrays of the torso (twice?) which only makes sense if the body if in the morgue AND there is enough time to take all these films… (5-6 minutes developing time each) AND as we see from Humes once again… PHOTOSwere taken BEFORE the xrays….
Can you start to see the contradictions here? Unless the body wasalready in the morgue as the ambulance arrives from Andrews, there is simplynot enough time to accomplish what is said to have been accomplished prior to8:15. The FBI report while not clearat all as to time is pretty emphatic about when the xrays and photos werefinished and when the autopsy started…
Who was Reed, Custer andEbersole xraying before the SS/FBI team off loads the casket from the ambulanceto the morgue? And over an hour before the Joint Casket Bearer Team does its job at 8pm?
You write: "WHEN are you saying the first incision occurred?"
I'd say Sibert and O'Neil's report is the best evidence we have onthis, being contemporaneous. So approximately 8:15 P.M.
So while the official record of the transfer of the casket occurs at 8pm… first incision at 8:15… you are stating here that the body of JFK was already in the morgue we saw the bronze casket loaded in Dallas and offloadedat Andrews. The ambulance does not getto Bethesda until 6:55-7pm. AND SITSTHERE. Reed/Custer see Jackie come in ASTHEY ARE TAKING XRAYS TO THE 4[SUP]TH[/SUP] FLOOR FOR DEVELOPING…
If JFK was in the casket coming from Andrews to Bethesda how is JFK in the morgue at 7pm?
You write: "WHEN was the first and last xray taken?( I will return tothis in a minute)"
I don't know and neither do you. No one that I know of noted the exacttimes.
That's simply not true Martin. Only three men were involved inthe taking of xrays that evening… Reed, Custer and Ebersole. After the body is received…Custer and Reed are sent to the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] floor. Ebersole and Humes, atleast, are in the morgue with the body of the president. 15-20 minutes later Reed/Custer are called back tothe morgue. This all has to occur between 6:30 and 7pm… why? Reed, Custer,David all see the ambulance with the casket and Jackie arrive…. They see her come inside and go upstairs… all the while a casket taken in full view from AF1 at Andrews is sitting in the back of this ambulance and Greer, Sibert and O'Neill are still out front.
Q: What did you do, in order totake the lateralX-ray? A(Reed): First, I discussed it with Dr.Ebersole. And he said, Take a lateral view of the skull."
We read above how Ebersole basically repeats the info yet claims HE does the running…
Q: Did you take any X-rays at anysubsequent point (to the 11 they had counted) during the evening? A(Reed): No.
SIBERT: When the motorcade from the airport arrived at the Naval Hospital, Bobby Kennedy and Jackie Kennedy were let off at the Administration Building. O'Neilland I helped carry the damaged casket into the autopsy room with some Secret Service agents.
You are of course staring to "get"where I'm going… Your casual statement thatthe body was in the morgue from 7pm on AND that there was no time to do anything to the head is simply mistaken. Custer and Reed are asked to leave with the body on the table… this MUST happen prior to 7pm. The FBI men are in reality gone from the morgue from 7:17 until 8pm… but since JEH ordered them NOT to leave the body, you think maybe there was some CYA going on?
It takes until the ARRB and release of the Sibert/O'Neill HSCA "reports on their testimony"… and their ARRB Testimony and the HSCA correct affidavits provided for them as well as their other related docs from the end of Nov 1963… to learn that they were NOT in the morgue from 7:17 until 8pm…. That Reed/Custer were running xrays around while yet another xray technician supervisor, Dr. Ebersole, remained… with multiple xrays to develop, it could be 10-15 minutes per set that Custer and Reed are gone from the morgue.
In the time between the body arrives and Reed/Custer comes back down… here is Reed's description before heleaves:
(Reed p31 line 3) You know, superficially,I could put maybe two or three fingers in there. But I - It wasn't the kind ofwound that you could actually observe into the cranium. I did not see any brain material.
Start with f6 or f7 and tell methat you can't see brain material there… And the image we get to see thatBoswell draws…. The entire top of hishead is gone…
This is NOT consistent with what Reed saw and represents a huge difference to the recollections of Dallas/Parkland/Hill…
David, I'm still struggling to see what you're getting at here. I guessyou're trying to say that there wasn't enough time for all the X-rays to havebeen taken before the first incision. It seems to me that they had around anhour and that's plenty of time but I'm sure you'll disagree. But the thing is,the testimony establishes that the X-rays of the skull were taken before theskull wound was enlarged. Therefore the X-rays show the wound in its originalstate. What more needs to be said? If you're suggesting that there was a secretpre-autopsy in which the head wound was enlarged BEFORE the X-rays were taken,then why do the X-rays show the occipital bone largely intact? Were the X-raysaltered to hide the alteration? If so, what was the point of the alteration?Please explain what you're getting at.
You say that when Ed Reed arrives "he see a shipping casket and seesthe body with Humes, Ebersole and Boswell among others....No Sibert, NoO'Neill, No ceremonial casket, No Greer". Where in his deposition does he saythat? When is he asked who was present when he arrived?
The HSCA was a charade.. a joke and a scam. In its section on the authentication of the autopsy xrays THIS is the conclusion:
(610) To summarize, the skull and torso radiographs taken atautopsy match the available ante mortemfilms of the President in such a wealth of intricate morphological detail that there can be no reasonable doubt that they are in fact X-rays ofJohn F. Kennedy, and no other person.
So I wonder Martin… if the xrays match the sever degradation of the spine that JFK experienced… as my other thread asks… "No Gross Abnormalities of the Skeleton?" Do you not find this over sight as bad as JFK's brain weighing more than a complete brain?
Best Evidence suggested the alterations were done on AF1… at least the widening of the trach wound (a side note: my wife is a nurse, I showed her the death stare photo and her first reaction was, "there is no way hospital staff would allow the body to be left with a wound like that if inflicted by the doctors… it would have either been sutured (Ebersole) or it would never have looked like that. A trach wound basically closes on itself up after the tube is removed."
I am more than willing to keep the conversation about the head wound and the vast difference between Dallas and Bethesda… I think I've shown there was time to smash up the skull… that Reed's seeing Humes use a saw on the forehead was, at this point quite unexplainable… except that this incision into the forehead and subsequent sawing of the bone… at this time Reed and Custer are asked to leave…. I am starting to come into the opinion that Ebersole was involved in the creation of xrays showing an altered head... while Reed/Custer did not.... but its only an opinion at this point... :-)
Dr. BADEN. I see. When ColonelFinck came in these had already been taken?
Dr. EBERSOLE. Yes, and repeated once.
Dr. BADEN. Now when you say repeated, wereX rays repeated after the autopsy had started? Do you have an independentrecollection of that?
Dr. EBERSOLE. The second group of X rays were taken either before the incision was made or very shortly thereafter.
Martin… Sibert nor O'Neill say anything about this in their report. In fact in his ARRB testimony, O'Neill tells us on page 67 that when he and Sibert were asked to leave for "photos and xrays" they were gone 10-12 minutes and then went back in…xrays and photos were completed… yet he also says that they wanted to wait for the xrays and for Dr. Finck to arrive being the only forensic pathologist in attendance (and he wouldn't have even been there other than for Humes callinghim… CYA?)
Rather than go on and on… you'd need to read thru the ARRB testimony of both men. The contradictions are everywhere… and yet these two remained the only non-military, non-medical personnel there… with no agenda and no threat of court martial… all they had to do was please Hoover… and that meant lying about ever being away from the body….
DJ
(btw - IDK why the words get pushed together when I copy from WORD into this area...?? but they do)
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
Leaving out the bone fragments (the triangular fragment and two smaller ones, for which we have only x-rays) reportedly found in the car (testimony of SS Agents Hill, Behn, Kellerman and Kinney) and brought into morgue later in the autopsy, since their provenance is contested, that leaves us:
Rearward:
1. Fragment on trunk picked up by Jackie
2. Fragment in follow-up SS car (1-2 in)
3. Brehm fragment to left/rear of position at Z313
Forward:
4. Harper Fragment
5. Burris Fragment
I leave aside the spatter of blood and brain matter, and just focus on fragments.
If there was only a wound to the occiput (which accounts for 1 and 2, though maybe not 3), my question was simply, how did 4/5 get where they were reported to be? Are we to discount these forward positions as hearsay? If not, how did it happen? That's all I was really asking.
