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US/NATO War on Russia
#1
I hope this thread just dies and goes away. But here is why it is the future if not the present. And by war, I don't mean just annexing the Crimea; I mean going all the way to Poland.

First, we read at Pat Lang's Blog, Sic Semper Tyrannis:

Quote:Yes, the tanks will be rolling in a matter of days. Once they cross the border, I doubt they will stop until they are in Kiev and at the Polish border.

But why would Putin risk going all in, so to speak. Certainly, his 'vital national interests' have been threatened for years by NATO's incursions into neighboring countries. Second, there is the Syria situation. And now the Ukraine? Instabilities in both countries have stirred up by NATO operatives. The message? You're next.

Now there is this from Ian Welsh
Quote:Ukraine is talking about getting nuclear weapons. Interesting. Or perhaps, worse:
According to translated news sources within the country, Ukraine interim representative threatened Russia with nuclear weapons, if Russia does not remove their troops from within the Ukrainian borders.


Mikhail Golovko said in a live interview that,"Russia can not win in this situation, it is a violation of all international norms and guarantees … If they are violated, we reserve the right to recover a nuclear weapon. Resume nuclear status and will be quite different to communicate, " he said.
Golovko said that Ukraine has all the necessary technology to recreate nuclear weapons, for these purposes must be "3-6 months,"

This is insane. Putin now has reason not to annex Crimea, but to conquer the entire country. You don't talk about doing something like this, you just do it.

Ukraine should never have given up its nuclear weapons. The lesson on nukes is clear. As the joke ran in the 2000′s "Iraq was invaded because it had no WMD, not because it did." Libya gave up its nuclear program, Qaddafi got sodomized by a knife. Meanwhile North Korea is still pissing in America's face whenever it wants.

But Ukraine did give up its nuclear weapons. As such, threatening Russia with them is crazy, just crazy. At the least, as Putin, I would now want to decommission all of Ukraine's nuclear reactors and establish surveillance to ensure they aren't trying to get nukes. And if they are: bomb them into dust, just like the Israelis do whenever they think they can get away with it.

Of course, nuclear reactors are hard to decommission safely with military force, aren't they?

Just bad all round.

In other words, ... What other words are there.
"We'll know our disinformation campaign is complete when everything the American public believes is false." --William J. Casey, D.C.I

"We will lead every revolution against us." --Theodore Herzl
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#2
"Putin Will Become the first person of world politics"

Quote:While an Ohio congresswoman was telling Buzzfeed that she sympathized with Russia's position in regards to Crimea and could understand why Russian president Vladimir Putin was "about peace in the Crimea," the people of Russia are being fed a very different interpretation of events by that country's media.

In Russia, the media is portraying this moment as Putin's big move on the world's stage as he stands up to United States "hegemony."

In a story about the Ukrainian crisis in the daily Moscow tabloid Komsomolskaya Pravda, nationalist Moscow State University professor of political science Alexander Dugin explained how the current moment is about much more than Crimea…

"Right now, the most important thing, in my view, is to withstand the bluff of the US and the NATO countries that will demand the withdrawal of our forces from Crimea under the threat of World War III. Such a war will not happen. The West is being governed by sane people. If we insist on our position, the period of one-dimensional peace will be over. A big struggle is taking place right now. Not a struggle over the Crimea, or Ukraine, or Russia, it's a struggle for the world order. Either it's going to be a one-dimensional world order, or not. If we can endure it, and I have no doubt that we will, not only will we establish a constitutional order in Ukraine and bring back peace and prevent massacres, we will also give a chance to all the people of the world to build their own destiny. Right now, Putin stands only one step away from becoming the world leader, the key figure, the embodiment of liberty and independence from US hegemony. He is passing a historical test. Right now is the moment of truth for us, for Russians, for Putin himself. Crimea has a secondary importance. What's happening there, it's not only about establishing order, not only about saving Crimeans from genocide and violence. It's not about the return of Crimea to Russia. It's about something else completely: the fact that the American hegemony in the world and the capacity of overthrowing regimes, initiating massacres will come to an end. If Russia will stand its ground, and we insist on international law, on adherence to democratic procedures, on legality and peaceful resolution of problems, in reality it's simple. Putin will become the first person of world politics. And Obama, the second. It's fundamental, irreversible In geopolitics, in all the conflicts, in all the areas, including the Pacific region, Latin America, Europe, Asia, Islamic world. All of the maps, all of the positions will change. Now the world pauses. In order for the US to keep its position, it has to start World War III, and it won't do that. Let's note that Ukraine can't fight Russia, especially because there is no such state: its president is on the one side, the junta on the other. The junta does not control even Kiev, where there are lots of militias that operate in their own interests. In this situation, there is no consolidation, and accordingly, the only thing that Kiev can count on in the face of people's opposition to the junta for order, for constitutional order, for its interests, for its democracy, for life and freedom of citizens is US intervention, the entry of the NATO forces. However, even if NATO forces enter the conflict directly, that will result in a nuclear war that the West does not want. Thus, everything that the West will offer is a pure bluff."

The same story also quoted Russia's most powerful female politician, Valentina Matviyenko, who is chairwoman of Russia's Federation Council. She said the following to Russia's parliament…
"Violence and threat to the lives of civilians living in Ukraine and our countrymen, citizens of the Russian Federation, continues. We showed the highest political and diplomatic culture by not interfering with Ukrainian sovereign matters, thinking that a peaceful and political solution will be found to the crisis. However, unfortunately, it is not happening. Further escalation continues. We got a request from the government of Crimea to assist them. They are worried about the well-being of their citizens. In this situation, we have to take measure in order to help our brother-nation."

Komsomolskaya Pravda also described Crimea in lurid terms…

"Hundreds of years ago, in Crimea places were conquered and protected. The imagination paints pictures from history books and movies. The rotten sea the Red Army walking knee deep in mud. The armies of count Potemkin, yet to become Count Tavricheskiy, standing in orderly squares in the salt steppe. Sparse White Guard groups of soldiers lying in foxholes dug right into the ancient Turkish fortifications. English, French and finally German troops. Who hasn't coveted this land? It never came to anybody without a price, without blood, or just from a signature in a state paper."

Meanwhile, another website, TV Rain, reports that tomorrow, March 2, there will be a march in Moscow to support the Russian Parliament's decision to give Putin the power to send more troops to Crimea.
"Tomorrow, 2 March 2014, in Moscow, there will be a march in support of the decision of the Upper House of the Russian Parliament of the Russian Federation. According to the reports of ITAR-TASS, officially, the march will be named March in support of the people of Ukraine and against the provocateurs that took power in Kiev'… There are many reports in the social media whereby workers of the Moscow government organizations are forced to participate in this march. We were not able to confirm or refute these reports."

And here's a report from Lenta.ru, a newspaper that is owned by a group founded and formerly owned by Mikhail Prokhorov, the billionaire owner of the Brooklyn Nets…

"Unrest came to the Crimean city of Simferopol a few days ago, but two of the city's biggest ethnic communities are Crimean Tatars and ethnic Russians and they protested separately, seeing the future under the new government differently. The Tatars completely support the Kievan revolutionaries; they protested at Maidan and consider themselves the creators (and thus the supporters) of the revolution. Ethnic Russian residents of Simferopol don't want to live under the thumb of the opposition that deposed Yanukovych. They demand a referendum to pronounce Crimea an independent state, or make it part of Russia….On Wednesday, 26 February, a Russian tri-color flag was placed on top of the octagonal building of the republican higher chamber of the Crimean parliament (there were also plenty of Crimean flags). The people in the inner yard of the parliament chanted "Ro-ssi-ya, Ro-ssi-ya" as if the Sochi Olympics found an unexpected continuation in Simferopol….In the same inner yard gathered no less than 10,000 Crimean Tatars and ethnic Ukrainians with their own blue and yellow flags. Both sides came to protest in front of the parliament, because at 3 o'clock the members of the parliament were supposed to have an extraordinary meeting in which they were to decide whether to recognize the new government of Ukraine. The noise in that closed space was incredible, the multiplicity of slogans among the protesters reminded some absurd play: "Uk-rai-na, Uk-rai-na….."; "Pu-tin, Pu-tin" was the answer of Russians; "Allah-hu-akhbar" came from the Tatars."

And an editorial by political analyst Petr Akopov in the online newspaper Vzglyad…
"The U.S. will not threaten Russia with military sanctions. Nobody is ready to fight for Ukraine. And threatening us with war only for the psychological pressure is useless, because it will only show that Washington has completely lost its sense of reality. American military superiority in this situation does not play any role firstly, because nobody in the U.S. is capable of convincing its own population that Americans must fight for the "Russia's Mexico." But more importantly, the U.S. with its own behavior in the world arena is completely discredited. Furthermore, in any country, from Japan to Venezuela, everybody understands the moral, historical, and geopolitical difference that exists between the American attack on Iraq and the introduction of the Russian military to Ukraine. Very worrisome times await us boycotts and sanctions are quite likely (Obama is already threatening with isolation), and mass campaigns against us in western media. However, he won't continue with it, as it's not in the interests of the West itself. After the mandatory public hysteria, Obama will have to calm down and negotiate with us about Ukraine, and together with us create an interim government and forget about the Euro integration of Kiev. If the US won't agree to that, and will decide to enter a tough confrontation, then Russia will not limit itself with recalling its ambassador from Washington. Vladimir Putin has been working for a while on building a strong geopolitical combination and variations of actions. Syria, Aghanistan, and the U.S. game with Iran these are just some most noticeable issues of today which will be affected by an attempt of confrontation with Russia over Ukraine. A total collapse of the American hegemony became possible not just because during the post-Soviet period the U.S. was simply overstrained, trying to dictate its will to the world, but also because, while China was rapidly growing in strength, Russia managed to rebuild not only its physical forces, but also its willpower and moral power. The will is back, the self confidence and our right to insist on our historical and national interest. In the 1990s, Russia was falling. From 1 March 2014 it began an era of a comeback. And it's irreversible."
"We'll know our disinformation campaign is complete when everything the American public believes is false." --William J. Casey, D.C.I

"We will lead every revolution against us." --Theodore Herzl
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#3
While I don't yet see a nuclear scenario, it is a VERY dangerous game both the 'West' headed by the USA and followed by NATO - and Russia on the other hand are playing in the Ukraine....it could very quickly turn ugly by design or by mistake and most are NOT aware that despite the decrease in absolute numbers of nukes, there are still enough to destroy the world several times over and make the rubble bounce. To be fair, Russia is doing exactly what the USA would do in parallel circumstances....not that I like either side doing such things. Its a geopolitical mess, and not as it appears on the surface. The deeper political aspects are lost on most, though much of it can be found on our Forum (and a few other places). It is no secret that some in the 'West' and USA have long sought to destroy and 'tame' for their own purposes Russia and China - something I believe is now impossible [not to mention not desirable nor fair nor legal]. Such apparently small and far-away 'things' have started other wars....the next global war will be the last. Insane megalomaniacs and power/money-hungry persons are in charge of all of the major powers. Life hangs by a thread on this Planet for a host of reasons - not the least of which that the will of the World's People is not empowered, but they are subject to the will of a few who care only about themselves and their tinpot empires. Time for a total paradigm shift. While one can assign blame to one party or another in each 'event', all sides, all major powers are corrupt, undemocratic, autocratic, and insane, IMHO.
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
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#4
I hope you are right too Lauren. I hope it just goes away....
Turning off teh gas might help bring some to their senses.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx

"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.

“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
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#5
Peter Lemkin Wrote:While I don't yet see a nuclear scenario, it is a VERY dangerous game both the 'West' headed by the USA and followed by NATO - and Russia on the other hand are playing in the Ukraine....it could very quickly turn ugly by design or by mistake and most are NOT aware that despite the decrease in absolute numbers of nukes, there are still enough to destroy the world several times over and make the rubble bounce. To be fair, Russia is doing exactly what the USA would do in parallel circumstances....not that I like either side doing such things. Its a geopolitical mess, and not as it appears on the surface. The deeper political aspects are lost on most, though much of it can be found on our Forum (and a few other places). It is no secret that some in the 'West' and USA have long sought to destroy and 'tame' for their own purposes Russia and China - something I believe is now impossible [not to mention not desirable nor fair nor legal]. Such apparently small and far-away 'things' have started other wars....the next global war will be the last. Insane megalomaniacs and power/money-hungry persons are in charge of all of the major powers. Life hangs by a thread on this Planet for a host of reasons - not the least of which that the will of the World's People is not empowered, but they are subject to the will of a few who care only about themselves and their tinpot empires. Time for a total paradigm shift. While one can assign blame to one party or another in each 'event', all sides, all major powers are corrupt, undemocratic, autocratic, and insane, IMHO.

Ukraine is not a member of NATO. So they can't use the attack on a NATO member as a means of war. And they didn't do that for Turkey with the Mavi Mara against non NATO Israel. I don't think Eurpoe has the stomach for another big war. Nor do people want nuclear missiles flying anywhere. I don't think the NATO countries have the support of their people to go to war. Though it could be a war with few people and just a few big bombs and over quickly but at what cost? There are lots of countries that support separatisim and are achieving that through representation in the EU (eg Scotland, Basque) Czecholslavakia is not any more.

Personally I'm looking forward to Latinos reclaiming the southern US states.

The US never confronted Assad/Gaddafi or Hussein openly and I'm not sure he will confront some one much bigger like Putin.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx

"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.

“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
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#6
It is probably my ingrained cynicism about these things, but as I see it, the designer Muslim "enemy" is decreasing in significance these days, and so I can't help wondering if there has become an urgent need for a new bogey man to keep the West's war machine at full production - and also to divert home woes by projecting them overseas - politics and business as usual in other words?

And what better new enemy than the old one - the one that worked magnificently for almost 70 years?
The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge.
Carl Jung - Aion (1951). CW 9, Part II: P.14
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#7
One of Putin's spokespersons just stated unambiguosly that he did think that the situation could escalate to direct conflict between the US and Russia....an ominous bluster/threat/reality/prognostication. I think this needs cold water poured upon it pronto, or we are all going to be in trouble....::bluebaron::
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
Reply
#8
There are so many right-wingers in the US eager to get Cold War II (or a Hot War) started with Russia. They never really could get that excited about the "war on terror." This is like the "good old days" for them, and they will push Obama into getting tough like Truman was pushed into it after WWII.
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#9
Peter Lemkin Wrote:To be fair, Russia is doing exactly what the USA would do in parallel circumstances....not that I like either side doing such things. Its a geopolitical mess, and not as it appears on the surface. The deeper political aspects are lost on most, though much of it can be found on our Forum (and a few other places). It is no secret that some in the 'West' and USA have long sought to destroy and 'tame' for their own purposes Russia and China - something I believe is now impossible [not to mention not desirable nor fair nor legal]. Such apparently small and far-away 'things' have started other wars....the next global war will be the last. Insane megalomaniacs and power/money-hungry persons are in charge of all of the major powers. Life hangs by a thread on this Planet for a host of reasons - not the least of which that the will of the World's People is not empowered, but they are subject to the will of a few who care only about themselves and their tinpot empires. Time for a total paradigm shift. While one can assign blame to one party or another in each 'event', all sides, all major powers are corrupt, undemocratic, autocratic, and insane, IMHO.


If you want to see a pure example of continuously-sustained hypocrisy turn on the US media and watch it. I've never seen a worse example of unflinching hypocrisy. Sanctimonious quotes of sovereignty violation and aggression all right in the face of the Bush administration only 10 years ago, not to mention CIA's intervention in Central and South America and overthrow of democratically-elected governments by sneering right-wingers who bragged about it. American Exceptionalism has just grown into a new uglier form. Even Viet Nam. Wasn't that perpetrated by a Gulf Of Tonkin war crime followed by the massive invasion of a sovereign country after CIA murdered our ally Diem? (Not to mention Kennedy)

Yesterday Republican Senator Bob Corker from Tennessee was on CNN complaining about Putin. I wish you could have heard him tell the CNN presenter "We now have new means to target these people without telling them they are being targeted or having to account for it". The fascist slipped and showed his true face. Especially scary when spoken with a southern twang. Senator Corker forgets he is citing new laws that were put in place by war criminals and torturers and that those new methods contravene what he is pretending to uphold. CNN has no problem criticizing Putin as an "autocratic leader" while serving this permanent State Department/CIA government as a direct propaganda arm posing as free press.

Today Kerry protested ending with the precious line that Putin had "Contrived an obvious pretext" for the invasion of the Ukraine. Those words are especially precious coming from Constitution betrayers, war criminals, and torturers. I agree with Peter about two wrongs not making a right, however the sheer hypocrisy can't go unmentioned. Putin is smart he's basically not feeding the international troll and he's ignoring these hypocritical protests from governments who know they not only would have done the exact same thing but have. America has been pretty good at attacking small defenseless countries of late but now has a real contender to deal with. I hope people are smart enough to see that the true context of this is America is now dealing with the dogs it itself unleashed with their fascist Vice President Dick Chaney and his call for irrelevancy for the same international law these rogue hypocrites have the nerve to cite. The facial expression of some of those reporters is "I know I'm doing wrong and this is a whopper but I don't want to lose my job". ...Freedom...
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#10
from The Beeb

Quote:Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said Ukraine was "on the brink of disaster".

In Crimea, Ukrainian soldiers faced off with Russian soldiers surrounding their bases while the Russian army is said to be digging trenches on the border with mainland Ukraine.
"We'll know our disinformation campaign is complete when everything the American public believes is false." --William J. Casey, D.C.I

"We will lead every revolution against us." --Theodore Herzl
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