Mathematical Challenge re: CE 399

[Bob Prudhomme]

"Mr. FRAZIER - That is the same as .25 caliber. Such weapons in the United States as the .25-20 Winchester, .25-35, the .250 Savage, and the .257 Roberts, are all of the same barrel diameter, or approximately the same barrel diameter. So a decimal figure of .257 inch is the equivalent of 6.5 mm."

Frazier is full of crap again. The calibre or bore diameter of the .25-20 Winchester, the .25-35, the .250 Savage and the .257 Roberts is .250". The groove diameter of these rifles (which is also the bullet diameter) is .257". The calibre or bore diameter of the 6.5mm Carcano is .256", while its groove diameter is .2677", or .268".

What the hell kind of "expert" was Frazier, anyways?

[Bob Prudhomme]

This is ground breaking material, and I'm embarrassed I didn't see this years ago. I have been trying to get my hands on a box of Western Cartridge Co. 6.5mm Carcano cartridges for years to measure the diameter of the bullets. Living in a remote part of northern Canada makes this somewhat difficult.

And here, I have been looking at the WC's evidence photo of CE 399 for years and not clueing in to the fact there is a scale in centimetres in the same photo. And just for a laugh, Frazier even admits to measuring the bullet diameter, and comes up with 6.65 mm! What an idiot!



Of course, I think Frazier either rounded his measurement off or else he was not reading his micrometer very closely, as 6.65 mm = .2618" and there were never bullets made in this diameter. What is more likely is the bullet measured 6.69 mm. I confirmed this by comparing the bullet diameter in the photo to the scale in the photo and I found the bullet to be .669 centimetres or 6.69 mm, and possibly verging on 6.7 mm. This would make the bullet .263385" to .263779" in diameter. Rounding .263779" to three decimals gives us .264"; the diameter of the bullet loaded for every 6.5mm rifle in the world except the 6.5mm Carcano. There is NO way that bullet in the photo is 6.8 mm, which would make it the necessary .268" required by the Carcano rifle. I think we have all the proof we need that the WCC cartridges were loaded with undersized bullets. Small wonder the Carcano had such a bad reputation as an inaccurate rifle!

Not only was Frazier mathematically challenged, I believe he was somewhat lazy, too. If he measured the bullet and found it to be 6.65 mm in diameter, there is no way he could convert that to be .267". He already had the number .267" (actually 6.77 mm or 6.8 mm) from a book, and never did the actual conversion from the Metric.

I'm not sure how many of you understand the implications here. If the 6th floor rifle was shooting cartridges loaded with bullets .264" in diameter, instead of the necessary bullets .268" in diameter, there is no way the rifle would have been shooting accurately enough for even an expert marksman to have been able to have hit JFK.

[Bob Prudhomme]

This is ground breaking material, and I'm embarrassed I didn't see this years ago. I have been trying to get my hands on a box of Western Cartridge Co. 6.5mm Carcano cartridges for years to measure the diameter of the bullets. Living in a remote part of northern Canada makes this somewhat difficult.

And here, I have been looking at the WC's evidence photo of CE 399 for years and not cluing in to the fact there is a scale in centimetres in the same photo. And just for a laugh, Frazier even admits to measuring the bullet diameter, and comes up with 6.65 mm! What an idiot!



Of course, I think Frazier either rounded his measurement off or else he was not reading his micrometer very closely, as 6.65 mm = .2618" and there were never bullets made in this diameter. What is more likely is the bullet measured 6.69 mm. I confirmed this by comparing the bullet diameter in the photo to the scale in the photo and I found the bullet to be .669 centimetres or 6.69 mm in diameter, and possibly verging on 6.7 mm. This would make the bullet .263385" to .263779" in diameter. Rounding .263779" to three decimals gives us .264"; the diameter of the bullet loaded for every 6.5mm rifle in the world except the 6.5mm Carcano. I think we have all the proof we need that the WCC cartridges were loaded with undersized bullets. Small wonder the Carcano had such a bad reputation as an inaccurate rifle!

Not only was Frazier mathematically challenged, I believe he was somewhat lazy, too. If he measured the bullet and found it to be 6.65 mm in diameter, there is no way he could convert that to be .267". He already had the number .267" from a book, and never did the actual conversion from the Metric.

I'm not sure how many of you understand the implications here. If the 6th floor rifle was shooting cartridges loaded with bullets .264" in diameter, instead of the necessary bullets .268" in diameter, there is no way the rifle would have been shooting accurately enough for even an expert marksman to have been able to have hit JFK.

[Bob Prudhomme]

I've figured out how to determine the rifling figures.

There are 25.4 mm in one inch. In the length of 21 mm, according to David Joseph's calculations, the rifling groove moved 2.5 mm of the circumference of the bullet.

2.5 mm divided by 21 mm x 25.4 mm = 3.023809 mm. This is the amount of the circumference of the bullet travelled in 25.4 mm or 1 inch.

If the bullet is 6.8 mm in diameter, 6.8 x 3.1416 (pi) = a bullet circumference of 21.36288 mm. We can also use the figure of 6.77 mm to be more accurate. 6.77 x 3.1416 = 21.268632 mm

If we divide 21.268632 by 3.023809, we get 7.033722, meaning that it will take 7 inches for the bullet to make one full rotation in the barrel. Translated further, it can be said that the rifle that fired CE 399 had a rifling twist of 1:7.

There is a problem with this, as I am unaware of any Carcano rifle ever manufactured with a rifling pitch of 1:7.

However, FBI SA Robert Frazier tells us he measured the diameter of CE 399 and found it to be 6.65 mm, not the 6.77 mm diameter many in the LN camp would have us believe. Let us try it with this number. 6.65 mm x 3.1416 = 20.89164 divided by 3.023809 = 6.9090474 or a 1:6.9 rate of twist. Uh oh, getting worse instead of better. Even rounding the diameter to 6.7 mm, which equals .264" (standard diameter of all 6.5mm rifle bullets except the Carcano), gives us a 1:7 twist (6.9609952), which makes no sense either.

What does this mean? Was CE 399 even fired from a Carcano rifle? Or is something else wrong here?

[Marc Ellis]

This is ground breaking material, and I'm embarrassed I didn't see this years ago....


"....I'm not sure how many of you understand the implications here. If the 6th floor rifle was shooting cartridges loaded with bullets .264" in diameter, instead of the necessary bullets .268" in diameter, there is no way the rifle would have been shooting accurately enough for even an expert marksman to have been able to have hit JFK.

Most of it's over my head. But I get that part in bold. CE399 was the wrong diameter to be accurately fired from the alleged assassination rifle. And that truly appears to be 'ground-breaking material'.

[Bob Prudhomme]

This is ground breaking material, and I'm embarrassed I didn't see this years ago....


"....I'm not sure how many of you understand the implications here. If the 6th floor rifle was shooting cartridges loaded with bullets .264" in diameter, instead of the necessary bullets .268" in diameter, there is no way the rifle would have been shooting accurately enough for even an expert marksman to have been able to have hit JFK.

Most of it's over my head. But I get that part in bold. CE399 was the wrong diameter to be accurately fired from the alleged assassination rifle. And that truly appears to be 'ground-breaking material'.

Hi Marc
Thanks for taking an interest in this matter. The greatest thing about this is it is not just me saying the bullet is too small in diameter, we have FBI SA Robert Frazier testifying to the WC that the bullet is too small.

"Mr. EISENBERG - You gave the weight of the bullet which is found in this type of cartridge. Could you give us a description of the contour of the bullet, and its length?
Mr. FRAZIER - The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length--possibly it would be better to put it in inches rather than millimeters The diameter is .267 inches, and a length of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches"

Frazier is completely out to lunch here. He has obviously read, from Italian military specs, that a Carcano bullet should be .267" in diameter (.2677" actually). However, the 6.5mm Carcano cartridges made by the Western Cartridge Co. were loaded with the far more common bullet for other 6.5mm rifles and they measured only .264" in diameter. Frazier, without doing the Metric conversion, automatically assumed that 6.65 mm = .267". Of course, it does not.

6.65 mm = .261811 or .262"

I can only assume that Frazier was no better at measuring bullets than he was at doing math, as there has only ever been one rifle cartridge (an experimental one at that) ever loaded with a bullet 6.65 mm in diameter; the 6.45x48mm XPL Swiss. Now, if we allow Frazier a .5 mm mistake in measuring, and say the bullet is 6.7 mm in diameter, we end up with a more likely scenario.

6.7 mm = .263779 or .264"

The diameter of .264" is the standard bullet diameter of every 6.5mm rifle in the world, except the 6.5mm Carcano.

[Marc Ellis]

B. Prudhomme: "The diameter of .264" is the standard bullet diameter of every 6.5mm rifle in the world, except the 6.5mm Carcano."
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Question:

Could the Western brand cartridges purportedly found on the 6th floor have been fired accurately from the M/C found on the same floor?

[Bob Prudhomme]

B. Prudhomme: "The diameter of .264" is the standard bullet diameter of every 6.5mm rifle in the world, except the 6.5mm Carcano."
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Question:

Could the Western brand cartridges purportedly found on the 6th floor have been fired accurately from the M/C found on the same floor?

From the research I have done, no, not considering the other deficiencies LHO would have been up against.