How a Popular Misconception Gave Away a Lie by the FBI

[Bob Prudhomme]

Special Agent Robert A. Frazier of the FBI was considered a firearms expert. He gathered most of the ballistics evidence in the JFK assassination and presented his findings in evidence to the Warren Commission. However, a careful examination of his work and evidenvce reveals a plethora of errors.

One such error is revealed in the excerpt from his testimony below, and this error will explain why the bullet shown in the evidence photo and known as CE 399 could never have been fired from Oswald's rifle, or any other 6.5mm Carcano.

"Mr. EISENBERG - Well, no; not at this time.
Can you explain the American equivalent to the 6.5 mm. caliber?
Mr. FRAZIER - That is the same as .25 caliber. Such weapons in the United States as the .25-20 Winchester, .25-35, the .250 Savage, and the .257 Roberts, are all of the same barrel diameter, or approximately the same barrel diameter. So a decimal figure of .257 inch is the equivalent of 6.5 mm."

This is a popular misconception in the shooting world regarding .25 calibre and 6.5mm calibre rifles. Mr. Frazier is 100% wrong in his belief.

The bore diameter of a .25 calibre rifle is .250"; the bore diameter of a 6.5mm calibre rifle is .256".

The groove diameter (also bullet diameter) of a .25 calibre rifle is .257"; the groove and bullet diameter of a 6.5mm calibre rifle is .264" (.268" in a Carcano).



The confusion between the two calibres stems from the bore diameter of the 6.5mm and the groove diameter of the .25 calibre both being .257".

This misconception plagued Frazier throughout his investigation and shows up again in his testimony about the Walker bullet.

"Mr. EISENBERG - Can you describe the general rifling characteristics which you referred to?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes. They consist of impressions from four lands and grooves. The bullet is mutilated on a portion of its surface. However, it can be determined that there were four land impressions and four groove impressions originally on this bullet.
The width of the land impression is 7/100ths of an inch, that is 0.07 inch--whereas the width of the groove impression is 0.13 inch, or 13/100ths of an inch.
The bullet is flattened so that it was not possible to measure its diameter. However, by adding the land width to the groove width, and multiplying by the number of lands and grooves, you can determine the circumference of the bullet and mathematically determine its diameter, which in this case corresponds to 6.5 mm. ammunition, or approximately .267 inch."

As I pointed out in another thread, adding the measurements from the Walker bullet of a land impression (.070" or 1.778 mm) and a groove impression (.130" or 3.302 mm) and multiplying by 4 to determine circumference, and then dividing by pi (3.1416) to obtain diameter, does not produce .267".

(.070 + .130) x 4 = .800 divided by 3.1416 = .255"

Amazingly, this is almost exactly the diameter of a .25 calibre bullet.

The REAL specs for the lands and grooves of a 6.5mm Carcano rifle are lands = .085" (2.159 mm) and grooves = .125" (3.175 mm). With these specs, let's try Frazier's formula again.

(.085 + .125) x 4 = .840 divided by 3.1416 = .267" (the correct diameter for a Carcano bullet)

With this in mind, let us look at CE 399 again:



We now know the width of the Carcano land to be .085" or 2.159 mm. Even a rough measurement of the above land impression shows it to be well under 2 mm and actually close to the measurement Frazier obtained from the Walker bullet of .070" or 1.778 mm.

There is no doubt now that the CE 399 in the photo above was not fired from a 6.5mm Carcano rifle, nor any other 6.5mm calibre rifle.

The theory I have, and it is rapidly becoming the ONLY possibility, is that Frazier and his assistants honestly believed the bullets from a .25 calibre rifle and a 6.5mm calibre rifle were the same diameter of bullet and would, therefore, be interchangeable as evidence. If the bullet presented as the Walker bullet (Edwin Walker swore it was a substitute) and CE 399 were both plants, it seems highly probable that the FBI used a more common .25 calibre rifle to produce their substitutes.

There are a number of other things wrong with CE 399, and I will produce them in the next few posts.

[Bob Prudhomme]

The next problem with CE 399 also involves the land impression left by the riflings of the rifle that fired CE 399, seen again below:



My search for specs regarding Carcano rifles led me to the Italian Firearms Forum of a gun collectors website, where a collector with access to Italian military specs was able to answer almost all of my questions. He is the chap who supplied me with the correct Carcano lands and grooves measurements I used in the last post.

It turns out that the rate of twist for the riflings in Carcano I have been using over the years are not quite accurate, and most have been rounded off to the closest whole number.

For those interested, the rifling specs are as follows:

Lands and grooves widths: All Carcanos (6.5mm but not 7.35mm) Lands = .085" (2.159 mm) Grooves = .125" (3.175 mm)

Riflings:

M91/38 6.5mm short rifle (LHO) = Standard twist rifling, rate of twist 1:8.47
M38 7.35mm short rifle = Standard twist rifling, rate of twist 1:9.45
All carbines (pre- and post-1938, except M38 carbines) = Progressive twist rifling, rate of twist 1:15.3 - 1:7.48
(this does not include carbines such as the M91/24 made from cut down long rifles)
All M91 long rifles (except M91/41) = Progressive twist rifling, rate of twist 1:22.79 - 1:7.94

I had arrived at a figure for the rate of twist of the riflings in the rifle that fired CE 399 but, now that I look at my methods, I am not happy with them and I will be doing it again.

If there are any members with experience in graphics who want to have a go at determining the rate of twist on the land impression seen on CE 399, I am more than happy to accept assistance. If the rate of twist seen on CE 399 can be accurately determined, it will be further proof of whether or not CE 399 was fired from a 6.5mm Carcano rifle, or any other 6.5mm rifle.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Here is an easy one:

[URL="https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5764&d=1394312818"]
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Once again, from the testimony of SA Robert A. Frazier:

"Mr. FRAZIER - The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length--possibly it would be better to put it in inches rather than millimeters The diameter is .267 inches, and a length of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches."

While I believe Frazier actually obtained the figure of 6.65 mm by measuring (or guessing), he likely obtained the diameter of .267" (actually .2677") and the length of 1.185" from a text, as these are correct dimensions but do not match the above photo, as do his diameter and land impression width measurements.

If we convert the length measurement of 1.185" to Metric, we get a length of 30.099 mm or 30 mm. Measuring the length of the bullet in the photo, I get 28.5 mm.

Once again, not a 6.5mm Carcano bullet.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Well, I did a careful measurement on paper of the bullet designated in the photo as CE 399.

I drew a straight line parallel to the sides of the bullet and crossing the land impression in the vicinity of the cannelure. As the scale is rather large in this photo, I measured from the crossing of the land impression 12.7 mm (.5 inch) towards the nose of the bullet, and measured from the line to the land impression. I found it to be 1.4 mm, meaning that, in the length of 1 inch of the barrel, the bullet had been rotated 2.8 mm of its circumference.

Finding the distance the bullet in the photo travelled in the barrel to make one full spin should be as easy as finding the circumference of the bullet, in millimetres, and dividing by 2.8.

We know the Carcano 6.5mm bullet to be 6.8 mm in diameter and can multiply by pi (3.1416) to obtain circumference.

6.8 x 3.1416 = 21.36288 mm

21.36288 divided by 2.8 = 7.6296, meaning that the rifle the bullet was fired from had riflings with a rate of twist of 1:7.63. This means that, in 7.63", the bullet will make one complete spin.

Unfortunately for the FBI, the M91/38 6.5mm Carcano short rifle found on the 6th floor of the TSBD does not have a rate of twist of 1:7.63. Like all of the other 6.5mm short rifles made in 1940 (or most of them), it has a much slower rate of twist at 1:8.47.

The only thing close to this rifling are the Carcano long rifles and carbines with their progressive twist riflings. The long rifles had a final rate of twist of 1:7.94, while the final rate of twist for the carbines was 1:7.48.

There was definitely something fishy going on, and this proves beyond a doubt that the CE 399 seen in the photo was not fired from C2766, or any other 6.5mm Carcano short rifle.

Next: TWO CE 399's???????

[Bob Prudhomme]

Can you spot the differences?

[Lauren Johnson]

OK, different color but that may be a function of lighting. A nick in one bullet but that might be out of sight in the other. I'm going with differently rifling grooves -- more on the top than the bottom.

[Bob Prudhomme]

OK, different color but that may be a function of lighting. A nick in one bullet but that might be out of sight in the other. I'm going with differently rifling grooves -- more on the top than the bottom.

That's one. Something else very obvious.

[Lauren Johnson]

Different length?

[Bob Prudhomme]

Different length?

Yes. While there appear to be too many rifling impressions on the bullet in the top photo, its length is correct at 30 mm, while the bullet on the bottom, at 28.5 mm, is too short.

The "nick" seen in the bottom photo is from the FBI removing a sample of bullet material for analysis.

The bullet in the top photo is also greater in diameter and, after measuring, appears to be the correct diameter for a 6.5mm Carcano bullet; that being .268" or 6.8 mm. It is greater in diameter than the bullet in the bottom photo which, when measured, is very close to the measurement of 6.65 mm that SA Robert Frazier gave to the WC in his testimony; and mistakenly reported equated to .267" when, in reality, 6.65 mm equates to .261811". As I pointed out earlier, there are no bullets manufactured that even come close to .261811", although a bullet 6.7 mm in diameter would translate to .263779 or .264", the standard diameter for all 6.5mm calibre bullets except for the 6.5mm Carcano, which requires a bullet .268" (.2677") in diameter.

The rate of twist of the rifling in the top photo appears to be even faster than the rate of twist of the rifling in the bottom photo, which worked out to 1:7.63. As I stated earlier, the 6.5mm Carcano short rifle had standard twist rifling with a rate of twist of only 1:8.47. I will work out a ratio for the riflings in the top photo later today.

As for similarities, the land impressions in both photos measure out at the incorrect width Frazier gave to the WC of .070" (1.778 mm), as opposed to the correct width of .085" (2.159 mm). Both bullets appear to show 18 ridges in the cannelure band towards the base of the bullet.

[Albert Doyle]

The camera distance or zoom is slightly different between photos. Look at the centimeter scale.