Malaysian plane crashes on Ukraine-Russia border - live

[Magda Hassan]

Hear hear Peter! All I am hearing on Australian media is that there is a bunch of criminals in charge of the crime scene and they are looting everything. But other sources reveal that the DPR personnel as you and Michael correctly refer to them as are doing a very good job under the difficult circumstances and that the hindrances come from Kiev for the most part. Particularly since they haven't agreed to any ceasefire and continue to fight.The bodies are collected the remains are still being collected. They are being stored in refrigerated facilities that were organised by them. The personal belongings are being gathered and stored for return to the families. The fuselage and plane parts are being gathered to take somewhere to reconstruct to find the cause of the downing. I find it insulting that the local residents, ordinary simple people in an extraordinary moment, and who will probably need counselling for the rest of their lives after finding themselves rained on by body parts and plane parts and a very close escape from death themselves are called criminals and looters.

[Albert Doyle]

If you want to see a good example of hypocrisy theater watch CNN. They have been assuming a position of righteous outrage and protest that Russia is somehow confiscating the evidence and doctoring the black boxes in order to hide a BUK missile shoot-down. Even using people like Peter Goelz and Mary Schiavo, both of whom were directly involved in covering-up the US government's doing of that very thing with TWA 800, as spokespeople. It certainly takes one to know one. CNN should be credited with using the right sources since most of the people it uses as experts have first hand knowledge of the corruption of a missile shoot-down scene and the evidence for it with Flight 800. The evil balls of it.

[Magda Hassan]

Still waiting to see any evidence from the US. In the mean time Russian Dept of Defence has issued some interesting items.

Ukrainian Su-25 fighter detected in close approach to MH17 before crash - Moscow

Published time: July 21, 2014 12:59
Edited time: July 21, 2014 14:36 Get short URL

Image courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry



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The Russian military detected a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet gaining height towards the MH17 Boeing on the day of the catastrophe. Kiev must explain why the military jet was tracking the passenger airplane, the Russian Defense Ministry said.
"A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it's distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km," said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia's military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow on Monday.

GRAPHIC: Su-25 fighter jet detected close to #MH17 Boeing-777 before crash http://t.co/oGWSIIfLuN pic.twitter.com/dv3p4O3osc
RT (@RT_com) July 21, 2014

"[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane," he stated.
"The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification," he added. "It's equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up to 12km, up to 5km for sure."
The presence of the Ukrainian military jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated.
At the moment of the MH17 crash an American satellite was flying over the area of eastern Ukraine, according to Russia's Defense Ministry. It urged the US to publish the space photos and data captured by it.
In addition, MH17 crashed within the operating zone of the Ukrainian army's self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air Buk' missile systems, the Russian general said.
"We have space images of certain places where the Ukraine's air defense was located in the southeast of the country," Kartapolov noted.

The first three shots that were shown by the general are dated July 14. The images show Buk missile launch systems in about 8km northwest of the city of Lugansk a self-propelled vehicle and two launchers, according to the military official.
Another image shows a radar station near Donetsk.
.

Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

While the third picture shows the location of the air defense systems near Donetsk, he explained. In particular, one can clearly see the self-propelled system, about 60 units of military and special equipment, he elaborated.

Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

"Images from this area were also made on July 17. One should notice that the missile launcher is absent [from the scene]. Image number five shows the Buk missile system in the morning of the same day in the area of settlement Zaroschinskoe 50km south of Donetsk and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk," the Kartapolov said

Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

The question that has to be answered is why the missile system appeared in the area controlled by the local militia forces shortly before the catastrophe, he stated.

Images taken on July 18 show that the missile systems left the area of the MH17 crash on July 17, the military official said.

Kartapolov also pointed to the fact that on the day of the plane crash Ukraine's military increased the intensity of the radar stations of the Buk missile systems.

[Magda Hassan]

And this from Zero Hedge

Ukraine hasn't said how it immediately knew rebels downed Malaysian plane, notes the Russian Foreign Ministry, as it unveils 10 awkward questions for Ukraine (and perhaps the US 'snap judgment') to answer about the MH17 disaster. However, what is perhaps more concerning for the hordes of finger-pointers is that:

• RUSSIA HAS IMAGES OF UKRAINE DEPLOYING BUK ROCKETS IN EAST: IFX
  
• RUSSIA: UKRAINE MOVED BUK NEAR REBELS IN DONETSK JULY 17: IFX
  
• RUSSIA DETECTED UKRAINIAN FIGHTER JET PICK UP SPEED TOWARD MH17
  

Obviously, if there is proof that this is so, aside from CIA-created YouTube clips, these would deal another unpleasant blow to US foreign policy.
The Russian defense ministry during its press conference which concluded minutes ago:


Here is the full clip of the Russian ministry releasing its own forensic analysis of what happened to flight MH17 (with English translation).

Russia wants to know why Ukraine moved its BUK missiles systems the day of the MH17 crash:

• RUSSIAN GENERAL STAFF HAS SPACE IMAGES OF SECTORS OF UKRAINIAN FORCES' POSITIONS IN SOUTHEASTERN UKRAINE, INCLUDING BUK MISSILE LUNCH SITES 8 KILOMETERS FROM LUHANSK - RUSSIAN DEFENSE MINISTRY - interfax
  

The day the Malaysian airliner crashed, the Ukrainian forces deployed an air defense group of three or four Buk-M1 missile batteries near Donetsk, Lt. Gen. Andrei Kartapolov, head of the Russian General Staff's Main Operations Department, told reporters on Monday.

"These surface-to-air systems are capable of hitting targets at a distance of up to 35 kilometers at an altitude of 22 kilometers. For what purpose and against whom were these missile systems deployed? As is known, the militia has no aviation," he said.

Russia has the flight paths of the Ukrainian fighters and MH17. Furthermore, it is asking the same question we asked last Thurday:

• RUSSIA SAYS MH17 DIVERGED 14 KM FROM FLIGHT PATH NEAR DONETSK
  

And wants to know why. The image (as seen in the presentation above) allegedly shows Ukraine fighter jets near MH17:


And asks for US proof of their accusations:

• RUSSIA SAYS U.S. SATELLITE FLEW OVER MH17 AT TIME IT WAS DOWNED... which would provide all the proof needed to show who is responsible - so why hasn't the US explained this or shown it?
  
• RUSSIA ASKS U.S. FOR EVIDENCE ROCKET FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA
  
• RUSSIA: NO U.S. PROOF THAT MISSILE FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA
  
• DEFENCE MINISTRY SAYS RUSSIA DID NOT DELIVER ANY SA-11 BUK MISSILE SYSTEMS TO SEPARATISTS IN EASTERN UKRAINE "OR ANY OTHER WEAPONS"
  

And went on to rebuke all the Twitter photos created by Maidan to 'prove' the BUKs were moving in Russian hands.
Summing it all up, the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, has 10 questions for Ukraine (google translated)[URL="http://www.mid.ru/bdomp/brp_4.nsf/sps/26477D378C0E55A444257D1C00442BF0"]
[/URL]
The global public expects a speedy and independent investigation into the causes of the disaster Malaysian aircraft in the airspace of Ukraine.
In order to conduct an objective investigation of possible leadership of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation has ased ten questions to the Ukrainian side.

1. Ukrainian authorities immediately identified the militia as the perpetrators of the tragedy. What is the basis of such findings?

2. Could official Kiev to report all the details of using [BUKs] in a war zone? Most importantly - why these systems are deployed there, as the militia no planes?

3. What are the causes of inactivity of Ukrainian authorities on the formation of an international commission? When such a committee will work?

4. Are the armed forces of Ukraine international experts to present papers on accounting for missiles, air-to-air and ground-to-air ammo and anti-aircraft missiles?

5. Whether these funds objective control on the movement of the Ukrainian Air Force aircraft on the day of the tragedy brought international commission?

6. Why Ukrainian air traffic controllers allowed deviation of the route of the aircraft to the north side of the "anti-terrorist operation zone"?

7. Why was not completely closed to civilian aircraft airspace over the combat zone, especially because in this area there was no solid field of radar navigation?

8. Could official Kiev to comment on reports in the net, ostensibly on behalf of the Spanish air traffic controllers working in Ukraine, which shot down over the territory of Ukraine "Boeing" was accompanied by two Ukrainian military aircraft?

9. Why Security Service of Ukraine has begun without international representatives work with recordings of talks with Ukrainian crew dispatchers "Boeing" and Ukrainian radar data?

10. How were the lessons from previous similar disasters Russian Tu-154 in 2001 in the Black Sea? Then the leaders of Ukraine until the last minute denied any involvement of the Armed Forces of the country to the tragedy until irrefutable evidence showed no guilt official Kiev.

Unfortunately, there has been no response by the Ukraine side to these questions so far. We expect that there will be some answers.
* * *
Needless to say, this places Ukraine and The US (as main protagonist of "finger pointer") in an awkward position as finally someone, somewhere will have to present some actual facts instead of merely continuing the "emotional appeals" propaganda.

[Magda Hassan]

Video of Rebel Buk Launchers Headed Back to Russia? No - Images From Ukraine-Held Territory Since May

Update: The video clip I displayed earlier today was likely the downing of an An-30 last month not Malaysian flight MH17. Once again it is very difficult to sort through all the propaganda. Both sides are involved.

Jacob Dreizin, a US citizen who speaks Russian and reads Ukrainian provided this update three hours ago.

Hello Mish,

On Friday, the Daily Mail, one of the major UK tabloids carried photos and video of what was alleged to be a rebel "Buk" launcher heading back to Russia. The article carried a claim from some Ukrainian source that the launcher was missing several missiles after having shot them at the Malaysian 777. The article was prominently linked to the Drudge Report, and so was probably viewed by several million people.

Today, this meme made it into Uncle Sam's official narrative, as per the following New York Times excerpt:

On the CBS program "Face the Nation," Mr. Kerry referred to a video that the Ukrainians have made public showing an SA-11 unit heading back to Russia after the downing of the plane with "a missing missile or so."

The video referenced by the New York Times was, in fact, posted on the Facebook account of the Ukrainian Interior Minister. The allegation was that the launcher was crossing the border with Russia.

However, going by the billboard and other features of the scenery, Russian bloggers and news sources claim to have identified the road in the video as having been taken in or near the town of Krasnoarmeisk ("Krasnoarmiysk" in Ukrainian), which has been under Kiev's control since May.

In fact, the billboard is supposedly advertising a Krasnoarmeisk car dealership. Also, one of the structures in the background is said to be a construction materials store on Gorkii Street, Krasnoarmeisk.

Please note that this town is (very roughly) 120 kilometers from the Russian border and 80 kilometers from where the Malaysian 777 went down. And again, it has been under Kiev's control since May.

At least one other clip of the "Russian Buk" that has been made available also suggests that the Ukrainians are showing their own equipment. I'm still working on researching that one for you.

Jacob

Video in Question



It is beyond incredibly sloppy for Ukraine to release such a video with a clear billboard of something in Ukraine-held territory, purportedly showing a Buk missile launcher headed back to Russia.

And we are supposed to believe Kiev? Kerry?

Please be serious. If you are really interested in the truth, you do not resort to such easily disproved and sloppy bullsheet.

Mike "Mish" Shedlock
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com

[David Guyatt]

In answer to one question asked above: I guess you don't need to take any real care or to be be accurate in faking up videos (if indeed they were fake?), if you know Obama and Cameron (and Kerry) are looking to run with it anyway.

I continue to suspect - but certainly don't know - that this whole tragedy is designed to drive a further wedge between continental Europe and Russia by forcing Europe to break off commercial links with Putin. If so, France, Germany and Italy, and the rest of Europe (excluding the UK who are so up the arse of America that it has no political independence anymore) need to resist being stampeded into taking any sort of action, until all the facts are gathered and properly analysed.

[Paul Rigby]

KAL 007 Case Shows Parallels with Malaysian Airlines MH17

By Seth Ferris

http://journal-neo.org/2014/07/21/kal-00...ines-mh17/

This is not the first time there has been a downing of a commercial flight, and, as in most such cases, there is more to the story of Malaysian Airlines MH17 than the first impression suggests. One particular case from the past gives us clues as to what this "more" might be.

On September 1, 1983 a Korean Airlines flight, KAL007 was shot over Kamchatka, Russia, whilst conducting a spy flight. It was piloted by a Captain Chun, who like many other key Korean Airlines pilots in the 1980s had been trained by Captain David H. Adrian, a former U.S. Air Force flyer, commercial pilot for ONA [Overseas National Airline] and Evergreen and professor at The Citadel Military University. (part one and two)

After the downing of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 one of Captain Adrian's now adult children recalled that Capt. Chun must have known that he was about 200 miles deep into restricted Soviet airspace, and that this could not have been accidental, but just kept on flying, like an automaton, with his crew and passengers completely unaware. Capt Chun realized by then that he was on a possible suicide mission, designed to create maximum international outrage and media manipulation during the Reagan years.

It is obvious that the fatal flight over Donetsk, which pilots know very well, is a war zone, and its shooting down were planned long ago. It doesn't just happen that commercial flights pass over war zones, and Ukrainian International Airlines has suspended a number of routes in order to avoid doing so, as its in-flight magazine tacitly confirms. Furthermore, if the plane was downed by a rebel rocket system "locking on" to it, as has been reported, a lot more planes would have been shot down in exactly the same way.

Most of the world's leading airlines rely on an organisation called Inmarsat for their aviation safety. This claims that through its 24/7/365 Network Operations Security Center (NOSC), highly skilled and cleared personnel maintain onsite Communications Security (COMSEC) capabilities. It works closely with IA certifiers to ensure adherence to all government requirements. Significantly however it employs (U.S. and NATO cleared personnel in support of its customers' Authority to Operate (ATO), Information Security (INFOSEC) and IA process requirements.

Therefore aeroplanes fly where the US and NATO tell them to. Did the US and NATO not know that Donetsk is in the middle of a war zone? If they didn't, which general will lose his job?

The hidden hand

Inmarsat has a great many contracts with the UN, NATO, the Department of Homeland Security and national air traffic control towers. It also has the bulk of the world's Controller/Pilot Data Link Communications (CPDLC) contracts, and under these it ensures direct contact between flight deck and controller for in-flight re-routing, due to wind changes and other operational reasons.

Therefore, even if a commercial flight accidentally strays into a war zone, Inmarsat knows about it, supplies the equipment for ensuring something is done about it and can alert others of possible dangers. Yet for some reason there were three commercial jetliners in this dangerous air zone around the same time of the day. This might seem confusing. Maybe that was the point.

It is not unreasonable to speculate that another phantom plane, of much smaller dimensions such as a fighter jet armed to the teeth with air-to-air missiles was in the region awaiting a cash cow passenger airliner which could be a red heifer sacrifice. After all, that is what happened with KAL007.

On that occasion a shadow military reconnaissance plane of similar proportions and size "merged" with it in the air at the same time, totally baffling Soviet radar. Now systems are more sophisticated, it might need three planes which suddenly appear together over a war zone to achieve the same effect.

Black box and black propaganda

Much has been made of the non-appearance of the black box for the MH17 black box. The implication is that is has been stolen by the rebels and sent to Russia to prevent anyone finding out what happened. However, the KAL007 case suggests something different.

Following that crash it took forever for the world to be informed that the black box had been found it was certainly in the possession of technicians long before that announcement, not the usual state of affairs. Furthermore, there are also accurate backup archive systems in Germany which could have been consulted, and still are today.

After the Soviets held the black box for a while the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO)'s final report was heavily redacted. Present day technicians can pull out a much cleaner recording than those in 1983 could, but the ICAO, a United Nations agency based in Canada, has continually refused to let them.

Furthermore the CIA, FSB, Mossad, NATO and British Aerospace continually monitor the border of Russia-Ukraine with their best technology, from deep space and the stratosphere, due to the decision of Crimea's electors to leave Ukraine and its potential to usher in World War 3. All these agencies are sitting on proof of the MH17 swerving deeper into the Donetsk region than any other commercial jet has in ages, probably sent there by a mysterious air traffic controller whose name we will never learn, most probably using Inmarsat communications channels.

However, the same agencies are trying to tell us that no one knows at this stage what actually happened. If the presence of those other planes is known, it seems very odd that nothing else can be ascertained when the plane was sent there by the same company they all employ, one way or another.

Who shot what

The weapon that can be responsible for the crash may as well be a BUK still there is no evidence that the separatists have any capable of launching a missile. The Ukrainian Army has them. A team of 17 people is required to operate one effectively, and it is known that a number of US experts have been imported into what is left of Ukraine to support new president Poroshenko, via Blackwater, Academi and Carlyle.

What we do know is that a wing of the MH17 was blown in half. Though a missile could have done that, surface to air missiles do not explain the large holes blasted into passenger tube by what is clearly a machine gun. Nor do they explain the aircraft plunging to the ground in an open field, near a farmhouse, with its fuel section still somewhat intact, as a missile blast would certainly have ruptured it as was proven when the body of the plane hit the ground and it exploded straight away.

Nor does a surface to air missile strike explain why body parts were falling from the sky BEFORE the explosion on the ground. If a missile had caused those deaths the plane would also have exploded in mid-air. People's bodies don't just fall apart during a plane crash, some form of explosion is necessary, and that would have ruptured the fuel tank, calling that to explode too. If flight MH17 had been shot down by another plane however, all the above would be consistent.

Exploiting the dead

We know who was on the MH17 because it has a passenger manifest. We know that amongst them were a number of Dutch doctors travelling to an AIDS conference.

Like all other passengers, these doctors would have been instructed to keep both their tickets and their passports with them throughout the flight. They would have to present them with their boarding passes when they got on the plane and keep them on their person, for security reasons, ready to display if needed if there were any security concerns on the plane itself.

The passports of the doctors have been recovered. They were not in the clothing of their bodies but in a separate box, all together. If there is some sort of procedure for collecting the passports of a particular group of passengers during flight and putting them together in a separate box it must be buried very deep in the Malaysian Airlines manual, along with the purpose of it. But it does conveniently show, in the event of a fatal crash, that not just one but a whole group of doctors died together in the line of duty.

Similarly there are now reports that people are looting the crash site and moving bodies around. Looting might be understandable, but for the fact that investigators are allegedly not being allowed near the crash site. If they can't get to it, it is being guarded, so random looters won't be able to access it either. Nor would the guards be looting, as this would destroy the point of guarding the site.

If bodies and objects are being moved around, it is right to suggest that somebody doesn't want others to see certain things. Whoever shot the plane down is not going to be any further implicated by the contents of the passenger racks or the bodies of the dead. Unless there is some evidence that links people on the plane to anyone who might have shot it down. Given that it was an international flight, that evidence is less likely to point to Ukrainians, but to other forces from other countries.

Furthermore, people who enter a crash site can put tings there as well as take them away. As Gordon Duff of Veterans Today told me before this piece was sent off for publication, "we are also getting wild reports of planted evidence, some total hoaxes but some very much "nanothermite" type false leads designed to start a flood of bizarre internet stories." Yet none of those stories yet implicate the US and its allies, only the rebels in Eastern Ukraine so either this is a botched job, or a very thorough one.

So what happened?

The videos of the KAL007 incident show how laughable is the possibility of a lone Malaysian airliner suddenly descending deeper into dangerous war zone skies without any record of what happened to it, no documentation, no Inmarsat or similar failsafe tracking system record, no air traffic control records for the 30 minutes before and after the MH17 dropped off the radar, no truly revealing radar records.

It is also not difficult to understand why the Ukrainian side has not been given access to any of the "black boxes", or flight recording equipment, from the plane. As Security Council spokesman Andriy Lysenko said at a briefing in Kyiv on July 19, their location remains unclear. So it will continue to do, until the contents are deemed satisfactory by those who will have to release them who are not the Eastern Ukrainian rebels.

It is incredibly stupid trying to blame the Russians. They have no possible motive. They have no reason to inflame the anger of the world by shooting down a civilian aircraft they know the story of the Lusitania as well as anyone.

Hopefully forensic evidence will demonstrate part of what happened, if it is still there, and if not manipulated by outsiders for political reasons. So will all those mysteriously missing records and recordings. But if the story and accusations continue to run, the official version will demand that someone is held responsible to assuage public anger. That is what this tragedy is about and once again, the callous disregard for human life involved is a far greater crime than anything that can be alleged about any possible culprit.

Seth Ferris, investigative journalist and political scientist, expert on Middle Eastern affairs together with Dutch National, On Special Assignment, Marcel Marie Brandsma, Holland exclusively for the online magazine "New Eastern Outlook".

[Paul Rigby]

Official video - Russian Defense Ministry release evidence of Ukrainian Air Force SU-25 fighter in close proximity to Malaysia Air MH17

In Russian with an English translator

Thank you Aleksei Krivoshejev:

[video]http://www.vesti.ru/only_video.html?vid=610598[/video]

[Paul Rigby]

Official video - Russian Defense Ministry release evidence of Ukrainian Air Force SU-25 fighter in close proximity to Malaysia Air MH17

In Russian with an English translator

Thank you Aleksei Krivoshejev:

[video]http://www.vesti.ru/only_video.html?vid=610598[/video]

[video=youtube_share;KSpeo5RcQQo]http://youtu.be/KSpeo5RcQQo[/video]

[Paul Rigby]

[video=youtube_share;KSpeo5RcQQo]http://youtu.be/KSpeo5RcQQo[/video]

The Russian military finally speaks!

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.co.uk/2014...peaks.html

Finally! The Russian military has decided to speak out about some of what it knows about what happened to MH17. It was a typical Russian event: the interpreters were nothing short of *terrible* (I speak as a former military interpreter myself), the visual aids were badly designed (the shape of a SU-24 bomber was used to represent a totally different SU-25 close air support aircraft), and there was no Q&A.

Still, a few very interesting things came out of this press conference.

First, the Ukies have been caught lying about their military aircraft in the area of the disaster. They had claimed that no UAF aircraft were in the area. The Russians have shown the recorded radar tracks which reveal the following: there was what appears to have been a military aircraft (with no transponder) flying below 5000m which suddenly began climbing just before MH17 was hit by some kind of missile. This unidentified aircraft then stayed and observed as MH17 fell to the ground. The Russians added that a SU-25 armed with a R-60 air to air missile could have shot down MH17. Maybe. But what is certain is that the civilian radars did detected this strange Ukie aircraft.

Now, these radar tracks are from *civilian* radars. The Russians apparently are not willing to share the data from their military radars. This is why this mysterious Ukie aircraft 'appears' at 5'000m altitude and then 'disappears' again, but you can be certain that their military radars, especially on their A-50 AWACs did track that aircraft before and after its strange maneuver. Again, I think that the Russians hope that the experts will come to the correct conclusions on the basis of what they have shown today and that they will not have to reveal more. But we can be certain that they have the full picture and that they know exactly what happened.

Second, the Russians are challenging their American colleagues to show the images they claim show the launch of the BukM1 rocket. They also point out at the interesting coincidence that an US experimental launch detection satellite was exactly over the area at the moment of the tragedy. Clearly, they are tossing the world experts some kind of lead here, but I am not sure what this is.

Third, the Russians have shown their own space-based imagery which shows that one battery of BukM1 had been moved just prior to the incident (See for yourself here). It will be interesting to see if the Ukies explain what is shown on these picture and, if yes, how?

As a public information this conference gets a C+ but as a lead for experts I would give it a much higher A-. We know have hard proof that the Ukies lied at least twice. They lied about the footage of the Buk missiles being moved back to Russia (the footage was taken in Ukie-occupied territory) and they most definitely lied when they denied having any military aircraft in the area when in reality they had one in the immediate proximity of MH17. That is a huge lie which the Ukies will have a very hard time dismissing.

As I said in my first post about MH17, I have no hope whatsoever that the western plutocracy will ever admit that the junta did it. Ditto for the corporate presstitues of the MSM, but I do hope that the world will see this tragedy for what is clearly was: a deliberate false flag on the part of the Nazi junta in Kiev. As David Chandler correctly points out about 9/11, the proof of a cover up is in itself already a proof of a conspiracy.

The Saker