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Scotish independence
#31
Butterfly Rebellion by Reubalachd Dealan-dé Albann

At the beginning of the two year referendum campaign on the question of Scottish independence the Department of the Taoiseach in the Republic of Ireland circulated a memo to all of the departments of the Irish civil service to the effect that the Irish government would remain silent throughout the campaign. It was to be understood that the question of Scotland's future would be a matter for the Scottish people. Dublin is a small European capital where news gets around. Media and government in Ireland adhered to this principle of neutrality. As the campaign in Scotland progressed it became widely known in Dublin that the British government and the British Embassy were applying pressure on the Irish state and the press to speak out against Scottish independence. One source within Oireachtas Éireann, the Irish parliament, has let it be known that the agenda of the British government was to paint a bleak picture of an independent Scotland in order to depress the growing support for a Yes vote in Scotland. Ireland, heavily dependent on trade with the United Kingdom, remained neutral throughout the campaign. At about the same time it became clear that this was very much part of a global offensive against Scotland. France, Spain, the United States, Canada and others began to make pronouncements echoing the sentiments that had been pressed upon Ireland. Certainly, the opinion within Dublin was that this was policy as far as Britain was concerned. Russia made the decision to break the silence of Downing Street's international conspiracy and spoke out.

As the campaign progressed into the final year analysts in both Berlin and Dublin predicted that support for independence in Scotland would overtake support for the union and issued memos to various of their government departments with instructions to begin the process of drafting policies to deal with the breakup of the United Kingdom and the arrival of a new European state. It can only be assumed that this, as a standard practice of government, was replicated around the world. Such a provisional measure no doubt undermined the confidence of Westminster in securing a No vote in Scotland. It was clear in the final months of the campaign that Britain was indeed in a state of frantic desperation. It was at this point that Mr. Cameron himself entered into secret discussions with the Council authorities on the Shetland Islands. Britain was preparing for defeat, and was not prepared to leave empty handed. This was the state of play until the date of the referendum.

Quite unexpectedly it was noticed that those supporting a No vote were openly celebrating and congratulating one another almost as soon as the polls were closed. One person who called a moderator of this page at half past ten in the evening shared his suspicion that "They know something. They know they have this in the bag." Through the early hours of the morning calls started arriving from election officials who were in a number of counting centres over Scotland claiming that they witnessed deliberate election fraud. This was, of course, merely anecdotal evidence, but it was the same story being repeated from as many as fourteen different officers three of whom had been campaigning for a No vote. On Friday evening we were put in touch with a counting officer from Kilmarnock in East Ayrshire. She had been campaigning for Yes Scotland and had contacted us in an agitated state. Over the course of a lengthy telephone conversation she recounted what she had witnessed. She was not allowed to ensure the closure of the ballots boxes over which she had responsibility, they were moved and left unattended, eventually being transported in a van without security to the central counting station and she was not permitted to be present at their arrival to verify that these were indeed her boxes. Other election officers had contacted her to inform her of open bribery of caretakers and other security personnel at polling stations.

Over the past few days she has been working with the Butterfly Rebellion to gather witnesses and full statements. Every hour the list of witnesses is growing. It has now been arranged for each of these competent witnesses to meet with a legal team outside of Scotland and the United Kingdom to have all of these reports recorded as sworn statements. All of these statements will be posted first to the Butterfly Rebellion page before being sent to the Scottish government and all other relevant friendly authorities. We have made the decision to by-pass the police at the present time. It is at least plausible that elements within the police force were part of a larger conspiracy. We apologise in advance to the police force of Scotland if we are wrong in this suspicion, but in good faith we are acting for the good of Scotland and we do hope that the police authorities, also in good faith, will understand.

Not a full ten hours after the declaration of the defeat of Scotland's bid for independence the Russian observers had raised a flag that the election had not been conducted in a manner that conformed to good practice and they stated their concerns that the referendum count had been "rigged." Two of these observers have come forward and have made it clear that they are now willing to give evidence to the effect that the count was illegal. We can have no doubt that these accounts will not stand in either a Scottish or English court of law as they come from Russian sources. The whole world knows that Russia is not to be trusted. So it now must be asked why the British government sought Russian observers. Knowingly the Westminster administration sought tainted witnesses to witness its crime; almost the perfect crime. Earlier this evening a senior civil servant in the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs in Dublin made it known to us that this decision was known in advance in Dublin, and that preparation for a Yes vote had been cancelled. According to this source, from whom we have requested documentary evidence, it had been made clear to his department that "Westminster will not, under any circumstances, let go of Scotland." Open diplomatic opinion in Ireland, a young state with hard experience of an independence struggle with Westminster, is that clandestine moves were made to safeguard Scottish resources for London.

Ireland, it can be argued, is yet another tainted source. Not France. Through the course of the day today two separate French sources have reached out to us to share their full agreement with the account given by their Russian colleagues. There are no observes, who have so far spoken out, who accept the validity of the referendum count. It will be difficult to guarantee a sworn statement from these men, but we have been promised another opportunity to speak with them. We will make a special plea to them to have the courage to speak out on the record, and at present we are drafting a letter to the French government seeking full disclosure from them. All of this information will be shared on this page and with the Scottish government. We believe that it is only a matter of time before the fullness of the truth comes out. There can be no doubt that the count was a fraud.
"We'll know our disinformation campaign is complete when everything the American public believes is false." --William J. Casey, D.C.I

"We will lead every revolution against us." --Theodore Herzl
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#32
Doesn't really surprise me, I have to say. There were similar rumours during the Thatcher government that votes had been rigged too. I think the prevailing thinking is that these things are too important to be left to the people to decide...
The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge.
Carl Jung - Aion (1951). CW 9, Part II: P.14
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#33
Hello, new user this is my first post.

I am Scottish, and an ardent Scottish nationalist, at least in terms of wanting self-determination for Scotland ie independence obviously.

I am having a hard time getting over this, it has been absolutely devastating, and the no vote was achieved 100% on lies, fear and intimidation with a sprinkling of bigotry.

All my life the British establishment has called us subsidy junkies (when in truth we have been subsidising them), then as soon as we looked like leaving it was all "oh please don't go...we love you" etc etc.

I don't doubt for a second if the UK govt could have fixed the result they would have, so I think that only leaves the question of whether they could. I believe they certainly could, given it was the UK electoral commission running the vote. Though I'm not sure that did actually happen, but could never be convinced that it didn't. We should have had international observers.

I just feel cheated out of our destiny. We have been lied to for decades over the value of North Sea oil, and continue to be so. During the referndum campaign we were told from all sides that it would last 15-35 years and by 2050 would be worth absolutely nothing to the British exchequer, not a penny, just a break even business till it was all gone, which it would be by 2050 anyway. Six days (6 DAYS!!!!) after the referendum there was an article on the BBC saying it will now last at least this whole century.

We had a referendum on devolution in 1979, at which time they told us the oil was gone by 1990. We actually voted yes to that but an amendment was tabled saying it required 40% of the electorate to back it to pass, which we didn't reach. Most people don't know this, but there was actually a Home Rule for Scotland bill passed through parliament in 1914, but was shelved because of the outbreak of WWI. We still don't have Home Rule now 100 years later.

I am a member of the SNP, have been for a long time, though I don't participate other than to pay my dues. I did some leafleting for the referendum but that was it. I suffer from Social Anxiety Disorder so doing things like that is not something I enjoy but this was important, the most important thing anyone in Scotland had ever been involved in to that point.

I work mostly with foreigners mostly Americans, it is very hard for an outsider to understand, and it was difficult to explain it all to them in a way that they could.

I wish I could say I believe Scotland definitely will one day be independent, but I'm honestly not sure. The British govt wrote the book on colonialism and are the oldest of old hands at putting down uprisings in their colonies, which is exactly what we are. They are insidious, underhanded, shameless, sleekit to use a great Scottish word, and very, very smart. They control almost all media print and broadcast and obviously all the levers of power, and are absolutely DESPERATE to keep hold of us. The UK is broke, we run a trade surplus they run a massive trade deficit, we have lower structural deficit than the UK, lower unemployment, an absolute abundance of natural resources, and currently produce more power than we use. They can't afford to lose us.

Just yesterday there was an article in the Scotsman about a project to pupe water from Scotland, which we have an embarrassment of, to England, where they have huge shortages. It is estimated to cost £14 billion to build, though we all know how these projects tend to go way above budget. We will have to pay our share of that, even though we have no choice in the matter and will be literally paying to give one of our natural resources away, we won't be paid for the water we give England.

As I say I don't think if you aren't Scottish you can really understand how devastating and heartbreaking all this is and all the complexities behind it, like many I shed a lot of tears on the 19th of September, but I thought this was a good thread and liked the attitudes shown and some of the great articles posted. I just hope one day I get to live in an independent Scotland so we can run our own affairs, manage our own budgets and use our own natural resources for our own benefit.

If you are unsure about it or don't really care, please just understand that the yes camp are very much the good guys in this, despite how they have been painted, and the no camp are the neoliberal, right-wing, racist, imperialist liars that will say or do anything to keep hold of a very valuable asset. We really need your help long term, we are trying to take on the full might of the British establishment which is ranged against us, political, media, diplomatic and economic, and its a hell of a fight for what is just a wee powerless country just now, so please support us when the issue comes round again as it surely will.
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#34
I feel it quite likely there was vote fraud. And I don't find this at all unusual or shocking either. It happens. Look at how Bush won the vote in Florida, as an example.

I found the whole thing quite strange. My initial analysis was that it was a done deal, because Cameroon and the establishment were so relaxed about it all. That then changed and the word 'frantic" can only be used to describe the sudden realisation that the vote might go the "wrong" way.

In the last analysis, the Establishment and the Crown weren't going to allow Scotland to go independent. I also doubt the US wanted that either.
The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge.
Carl Jung - Aion (1951). CW 9, Part II: P.14
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#35
Quote:I feel it quite likely there was vote fraud. And I don't find this at all unusual or shocking either. It happens. Look at how Bush won the vote in Florida, as an example.

Even more: the 2004 election where the election turned on a single county and their electronic counting system was strangely transferred to another server for in the wee hours. John Kerry quickly conceded. The guy who set it up dies in a small plane crash just before he was going to testify about what he did.
"We'll know our disinformation campaign is complete when everything the American public believes is false." --William J. Casey, D.C.I

"We will lead every revolution against us." --Theodore Herzl
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#36
Lauren Johnson Wrote:
Quote:I feel it quite likely there was vote fraud. And I don't find this at all unusual or shocking either. It happens. Look at how Bush won the vote in Florida, as an example.

Even more: the 2004 election where the election turned on a single county and their electronic counting system was strangely transferred to another server for in the wee hours. John Kerry quickly conceded. The guy who set it up dies in a small plane crash just before he was going to testify about what he did.

Oooh, yeah, I'd quite forgotten about that. I was also suspicious about the way both Kerry and Gore just lay down and went to sleep so quickly and quietly.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx

"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.

“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
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#37
David Guyatt Wrote:In the last analysis, the Establishment and the Crown weren't going to allow Scotland to go independent. I also doubt the US wanted that either.

'Independence' for Kosovo, Slovenia, Croatia, Montenegro, Cirenaica, Tripolitania, Fezzan, Syria and Iraq can break up, all the better, but not Ukraine (Novorussia), Scotland, Euskadi, or Catalonia.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx

"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.

“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
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#38
I've been thinking about it and just can't dismiss that you guys might be right about voting fraud. I am starting to think they'll never let us leave, but if the SNP win a majority at WM in 2015 (which is unlikely) and also at Holyrood in 2016 (which is likely) they could, theoretically, just go the UDI (Universal Declaration of Independence) route, there is nothing legally to prevent that but it would be much more fraught a process than a yes vote would have been.

I understand to most on here this isn't really important, we're just a small country of little significance and it doesn't affect your lives at all, but I really wish other people around the world could understand a bit better, think about if it was your country in our position how you would feel. I still read articles about it every day have done for 3 years now and there are thousands that are still defiantly displaying yes placards and posters in their windows and cars.

It has caused divisions which will never heal, but I think that's okay as when people are in the wrong the only right position is to be opposed to them so the yes side won't back down or go away quietly, we are in it for the long haul, I just fear we are essentially powerless and fighting a rigged fight all along.
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#39
A democratic vote is not going to be enough for that crowd. Scotland has, among other things, a very important bank and much of the UK's nuclear infrastructure. It would also diminish the power and prestige of England - so they will use every trick in the book to make sure such an event doesn't happen. I think it is possible, but it will take much more 'oomph' than most in Scotland likely think to make it a reality. Close elections they can easily fake, and IMO likely did [or were prepared to].
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
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#40
That very large Scottish bank is owned 81% by the British government now, as otherwise it would've gone belly up in 2008 with massive losses and rotten assets.

One thing about the Scottish debate that is really never discussed, is we poor English who are not masters in our own house and who have suffered under the burden of celtic party leaders - mainly scots, but some Irish and a few Welsh too. Over the past many decades, British political party leaders of the three main partiers are celtic in origin - to a greater or lesser degree. Check it out. Britain is run by celts in other words, and has been for decades past.

As Michael Caine used to say, "not many people know that"... :Clown:
The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge.
Carl Jung - Aion (1951). CW 9, Part II: P.14
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