The doubters are ignoring Fratini's Allen photo that showed a man just behind the glass in the portal. The foyer where that man was standing is on the same level as the portal landing. Fratini took the Darnell frame of Prayer man and aligned it next to the Allen photo of this man so they were side by side. Although Prayer Man's shins and feet are not visible this juxtaposition made it absolutely clear that this man in the Allen photo and Prayer Man had perfectly matching body proportions. What this means is Prayer Man was 100% standing on the landing and not on the first step down. Parker and Kamp have a problem because they said they thought Prayer Man was standing on the first step down because he was obviously too short. They said this obvious lack of height was explained by Prayer Man being on the first step down. Fratini's Allen photo evidence is brilliant because one look at it instantly makes clear that for Prayer Man to be on the first step down would require a grotesque extension of his legs from the shins down. Parker has a problem because he admitted he saw that Prayer Man was too short. Once Fratini proved Prayer Man was on the landing Parker had no comment. Parker doesn't want to admit he himself just proved Prayer Man can't be Oswald.
I think the landing is 4 feet wide because the glass door doesn't go past it when opened if you look at photos of the portal.
The doubters are ignoring Fratini's Allen photo that showed a man just behind the glass in the portal. The foyer where that man was standing is on the same level as the portal landing. Fratini took the Darnell frame of Prayer man and aligned it next to the Allen photo of this man so they were side by side. Although Prayer Man's shins and feet are not visible this juxtaposition made it absolutely clear that this man in the Allen photo and Prayer Man had perfectly matching body proportions. What this means is Prayer Man was 100% standing on the landing and not on the first step down. Parker and Kamp have a problem because they said they thought Prayer Man was standing on the first step down because he was obviously too short. They said this obvious lack of height was explained by Prayer Man being on the first step down. Fratini's Allen photo evidence is brilliant because one look at it instantly makes clear that for Prayer Man to be on the first step down would require a grotesque extension of his legs from the shins down. Parker has a problem because he admitted he saw that Prayer Man was too short. Once Fratini proved Prayer Man was on the landing Parker had no comment. Parker doesn't want to admit he himself just proved Prayer Man can't be Oswald.
I think the landing is 4 feet wide because the glass door doesn't go past it when opened if you look at photos of the portal.
IOW, is every thread, in every forum, about Doyle's opinions related to his fixation?
When this thread was young, Alan Ford was sounding the alarm!
Quote:Heads Up!
With a tip of the hat to Mr. Hargrove (Jim), for caring enough about the research community to sound the alarm, please be aware folks that your comments may be in jeopardy of conveying more or less than what you are actually sharing, given the less than forthcoming tactics shared here --Ã ....
Mr. Ford reacted quite negatively to my point that at least when Von Pein copied the comments of others, he attributed their comments to them, and that Mr. Hargrove, himself, recently had not..... yet he was protesting about Von Pein.... Mr. Ford decided my point was somehow off topic.
Alan Ford Wrote:.......
Well said, Mr. Cross, appreciate the sensible reply chock full of wisdom.
That said, I respectfully ask a Moderator to shut my thread down at this point, before it's original premise is lost in the potential mushrooms that may form or evolve around it.
However, as we shut this down in hopes that should anyone have any further disagreement(s) over Mr. Armstrong's research with someone else they take the matter up via PM mode.
That said, don't let it be lost upon anyone, actual members and/or "Guests" reading along to what great length how the researcher Mr. Hargrove warns about would rather "win" with the last word however contrived or bias towards his fellow researchers. Thought I'd never see the day when someone wants to "win" so bad that misconstruing the words/context of others is more important than arriving at the genuine truth?!
Lee Harvey Oswald is an innocent victim.
At least Scott has some excuse for his blindness.
Peter Janney's uncle was Frank Pace, chairman of General Dynamics who enlisted law partners Roswell Gilpatric and Luce's brother-in-law, Maurice "Tex" Moore, in a trade of 16 percent of Gen. Dyn. stock in exchange for Henry Crown and his Material Service Corp. of Chicago, headed by Byfield's Sherman Hotel group's Pat Hoy. The Crown family and partner Conrad Hilton next benefitted from TFX, at the time, the most costly military contract award in the history of the world. Obama was sponsored by the Crowns and Pritzkers. So was Albert Jenner Peter Janney has preferred to write of an imaginary CIA assassination of his surrogate mother, Mary Meyer, but not a word about his Uncle Frank.
Hey Tom: You're obviously a dedicated and thorough researcher. Why is it, then, that you can't give this particular bone a rest? You obviously have more important stuff to say. There's a point of diminishing returns in this type of criticism, and you waved bon voyage to that point weeks ago.
"All that is necessary for tyranny to succeed is for good men to do nothing." (unknown)
James Tracy: "There is sometimes an undue amount of paranoia among some conspiracy researchers that can contribute to flawed observations and analysis."
Gary Cornwell (Dept. Chief Counsel HSCA): "A fact merely marks the point at which we have agreed to let investigation cease."
Alan Ford: "Just because you believe it, that doesn't make it so."
Drew Phipps Wrote:With all due respect Alan, that's a bunch of horse puckey. If Frazier's height is "too big" because PP is behind him (the way the guys is the foreground of the picnic photo are "too big" compared to Oswald), how is it possible for PP to be on a lower step than Frazier?
Thank you, Mr. Trotter, for your concise and well reasoned post.
So there's no confusion here, Mr. Phipps, I don't place Prayer Man "behind" (I actually place his position forward of Mr. Frazier, given his right elbow placement on the pillar considerably forward of Mr. Frazier's position further back).
<----note the wrongfully accused's right elbow on the pillar...
Now, note the distance the pillar sits forward of the 3 feet landing space where Mr. Frazier stood towering above...
Mr. Darnell's image captures Prayer Man's right elbow upon the pillar. Also, it's not frivolous to believe Prayer Man is also leaning back upon the pillar as well for support. People who lean like that also lose inches to their full height as well.
10-03-2016, 06:06 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2016, 06:27 PM by Albert Doyle.)
Alan Ford Wrote:So there's no confusion here, Mr. Phipps, I don't place Prayer Man "behind" (I actually place his position forward of Mr. Frazier, given his right elbow placement on the pillar considerably forward of Mr. Frazier's position further back).
<----note the wrongfully accused's right elbow on the pillar...
Now, note the distance the pillar sits forward of the 3 feet landing space where Mr. Frazier stood towering above...
Mr. Darnell's image captures Prayer Man's right elbow upon the pillar. Also, it's not frivolous to believe Prayer Man is also leaning back upon the pillar as well for support. People who lean like that also lose inches to their full height as well.
Sorry Alan but you can't ignore the Fratini evidence I posted that makes it more than clear that Prayer Man is standing on the landing.
The reason you can't place Prayer Man too far forward from Frazier is because of the very limitations of the portal landing that you yourself cite. The front edge would keep that from occurring and not allow Prayer Man to be far enough forward to affect my arguments. It is impossible for Prayer Man to be "considerably forward" of Frazier because the first step down creates a border that limits that distance to a negligible length. Prayer Man is roughly even with Frazier where both individuals went as far forward in the portal on the landing as they could without stepping down. This conforms to human behavior. This is the correct orientation of Prayer Man and Frazier according to all known evidence. With that established, science demands that any serious analyzer answer to the obvious height difference this incurs. Mr Josephs must heed to this because it is firm and accurate science as shown right here in front of you.
Prayer Man is not leaning. He is facing Frazier with both hands grasping something as even Kamp foolishly admitted without realizing the consequences. Kamp announced a departure from the internet immediately after I exposed him doing that but never followed-through. Mr Parker said Prayer Man's left elbow was reflected in the glass. When I pointed out to him that there was no such reflection in other frames he had no answer.
Mr Ford: You don't realize your claims have serious flaws. According to the portal dimensions Prayer Man cannot be "considerably forward" and leaning at the same time because there would be too much of a gap between Prayer Man's shoulder and the wall. At least a foot. Simple common sense testing would show you can't lean against a wall with a foot of space or more between your shoulder and the wall.
Mr Ford: It is entirely foolish for you to not realize you have just confirmed my direct height comparison argument and disproven Prayer Man as Oswald by your own entry.
Alan Ford Wrote:So there's no confusion here, Mr. Phipps, I don't place Prayer Man "behind" (I actually place his position forward of Mr. Frazier, given his right elbow placement on the pillar considerably forward of Mr. Frazier's position further back).
<----note the wrongfully accused's right elbow on the pillar...
Now, note the distance the pillar sits forward of the 3 feet landing space where Mr. Frazier stood towering above...
Mr. Darnell's image captures Prayer Man's right elbow upon the pillar. Also, it's not frivolous to believe Prayer Man is also leaning back upon the pillar as well for support. People who lean like that also lose inches to their full height as well.
Sorry Alan but you can't ignore the Fratini evidence I posted that makes it more than clear that Prayer Man is standing on the landing.
The reason you can't place Prayer Man too far forward from Frazier is because of the very limitations of the portal landing that you yourself cite. The front edge would keep that from occurring and not allow Prayer Man to be far enough forward to affect my arguments. It is impossible for Prayer Man to be "considerably forward" of Frazier because the first step down creates a border that limits that distance to a negligible length. Prayer Man is roughly even with Frazier where both individuals went as far forward in the portal on the landing as they could without stepping down. This conforms to human behavior. This is the correct orientation of Prayer Man and Frazier according to all known evidence. With that established, science demands that any serious analyzer answer to the obvious height difference this incurs. Mr Josephs must heed to this because it is firm and accurate science as shown right here in front of you.
Prayer Man is not leaning. He is facing Frazier with both hands grasping something as even Kamp foolishly admitted without realizing the consequences. Kamp announced a departure from the internet immediately after I exposed him doing that but never followed-through. Mr Parker said Prayer Man's left elbow was reflected in the glass. When I pointed out to him that there was no such reflection in other frames he had no answer.
Mr Ford: It is entirely foolish for you to not realize you have just confirmed my direct height comparison argument and disproven Prayer Man as Oswald by your own entry.
I was quite serious when I said this was proof.
First, it's merely your opinion that Prayer Man is not leaning. We get that you created in your own mind that you have magical measuring prowess void of actually being on the scene of the intended objects to be measured; however, suffice it to say we have to draw the line somewhere sir and reel you in. Fasten your seat belt please.
In respect to Mr. Frantini, Mr. Parker and Mr. Kamp, where are you going to find people with more due diligence? People who genuinely care about advancing this issue in a way indicative of the justice JFK deserves.
Now, having said that, Mr. Doyle, rely less upon your own opinions, and accept the considerable distance between (not what I'm saying) but what the photographic evidence clearly shows in Mr. Darnell's image where the wrongfully accused's right elbow rests upon the pillar...a pillar mind you that in the image looking outward of the TSBD rests beyond the 3 foot landing, where Mr. Frazier is seen towering over everyone else in Mr. Darnell's photo.
I await evidence of your medical degree that allows you to determine where and when someone is leaning or not. Go ahead, make my day.
Meanwhile, please note Prayer Man's right elbow...
and, once again, see how forward of Mr. Frazier's position the pillar, where his right elbow rests, is by being honest instead of relying upon your opinion.
LR Trotter Wrote:The distance from the landing steps to the doorway appears to be no more than 3 feet, looking at the picture from the lobby. So, to me it appears that PP can't be far from the steps, and not much farther inward than BWF. The camera angle may slightly distort the relative heights of PP and BWF, but I would think it is a minimal distortion.
As for PrayerPerson, I have yet to see convincing proof that the person pictured is a male. And, what appears to be possibly a left arm may not be that, as possibly it is a purse. Also, I am having trouble determining the direction PP's head is facing, as seen in the still/picture.
Regarding BWF, I have to wonder, as I wander, if maybe he is sitting on, or leaning on a handrail that appears to be in the center of the porch/landing stairway. That being said, I do believe there is a measurable height difference between PP and the taller looking BWF.
And then there is LHO, and the question of his whereabouts at 12:30pm CST on 11/22/'63, as well as presented evidence that indicates the possibility that he was a shooter during the assassination of JFK. But, even if it could be proved he was on the 6th floor of the TSBD during the shooting, to me the presented evidence is well short of proof that he was a shooter.
While I do not wish to continue participation in this discussion, and hopefully avoid any argument as well, I am amazed it continues. I do believe, as do others much smarter than I, that this issue is long ago settled. And, IMO not at all pertinent to current understanding. In any event, JMO, FWIW.
Can you or anyone please post a photo of Wesley in that spot prior to Darnell?
This I believe is even more critical.
When did Lovelady move from the far left to the middle of the landing...?
In the HUGHES film frame capture we see Altgens' Lovelady character far to the left of the landing as the limo turns the corner
In WEIGMAN, from virtually the same angle, Lovelady is now in the middle of the landing...
It was at this turn that Truly claims the limo swung WIDE and almost hit the island curb, almost stopped, and then swung back.
It is missing from Zap and somehow is not shown in Towner.
So 3 questions -
1) where's tall Wesley
2) when does Lovelady move and
3) how does he show up in Martin when by his own admission he and Shelley were in the back by the loading dock for quite a while after the shots.
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
LR Trotter Wrote:The distance from the landing steps to the doorway appears to be no more than 3 feet, looking at the picture from the lobby. So, to me it appears that PP can't be far from the steps, and not much farther inward than BWF. The camera angle may slightly distort the relative heights of PP and BWF, but I would think it is a minimal distortion.
As for PrayerPerson, I have yet to see convincing proof that the person pictured is a male. And, what appears to be possibly a left arm may not be that, as possibly it is a purse. Also, I am having trouble determining the direction PP's head is facing, as seen in the still/picture.
Regarding BWF, I have to wonder, as I wander, if maybe he is sitting on, or leaning on a handrail that appears to be in the center of the porch/landing stairway. That being said, I do believe there is a measurable height difference between PP and the taller looking BWF.
And then there is LHO, and the question of his whereabouts at 12:30pm CST on 11/22/'63, as well as presented evidence that indicates the possibility that he was a shooter during the assassination of JFK. But, even if it could be proved he was on the 6th floor of the TSBD during the shooting, to me the presented evidence is well short of proof that he was a shooter.
While I do not wish to continue participation in this discussion, and hopefully avoid any argument as well, I am amazed it continues. I do believe, as do others much smarter than I, that this issue is long ago settled. And, IMO not at all pertinent to current understanding. In any event, JMO, FWIW.
Can you or anyone please post a photo of Wesley in that spot prior to Darnell?
This I believe is even more critical.
When did Lovelady move from the far left to the middle of the landing...?
In the HUGHES film frame capture we see Altgens' Lovelady character far to the left of the landing as the limo turns the corner
In WEIGMAN, from virtually the same angle, Lovelady is now in the middle of the landing...
It was at this turn that Truly claims the limo swung WIDE and almost hit the island curb, almost stopped, and then swung back.
It is missing from Zap and somehow is not shown in Towner.
So 3 questions -
1) where's tall Wesley
2) when does Lovelady move and
3) how does he show up in Martin when by his own admission he and Shelley were in the back by the loading dock for quite a while after the shots.
Brilliant, Mr. Josephs, what have these people done in the name of "national security"?
Your three questions are indicative of what a genuine investigation into this matter would have laid out in a fair and square manner right from the very beginning.
Am venturing over to Mr. Kelly's (Bill) to determine if he may have some floor plans/dimensions of the TSBD entrance way. Enjoy your day, Mr. Josephs, Cheers!
Quote:Brilliant, Mr. Josephs, what have these people done in the name of "national security"?
Your three questions are indicative of what a genuine investigation into this matter would have laid out in a fair and square manner right from the very beginning.
Am venturing over to Mr. Kelly's (Bill) to determine if he may have some floor plans/dimensions of the TSBD entrance way. Enjoy your day, Mr. Josephs, Cheers!
Albert:
Quote:I think the landing is 4 feet wide because the glass door doesn't go past it when opened if you look at photos of the portal.
A decent guess but off by 25%.
Albert - Place the man wherever you want - doesn't change the simple facts about the photo or how wrong you are about dimensions and perspective.
I'll ask you then Albert - where is Wesley in Altgens?
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
10-03-2016, 08:59 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2016, 09:18 PM by Albert Doyle.)
Alan Ford Wrote:First, it's merely your opinion that Prayer Man is not leaning. We get that you created in your own mind that you have magical measuring prowess void of actually being on the scene of the intended objects to be measured; however, suffice it to say we have to draw the line somewhere sir and reel you in. Fasten your seat belt please.
Wrong. If you obey the forensic evidence I've been posting Darnell is at about a 20 degree angle to the portal. The fact Prayer Man's head is aligned with the aluminum frame, combined with your far forward claim, necessitates that Prayer Man be pulled away from the wall by geometric science. With the locations you yourself have admitted, that 20 degree triangulation mathematically requires a space between Prayer Man's shoulder and the wall. This is not "opinion" it is science that must be answered to. A far forward position creates a scalene triangle when you input the tangents from a far forward position of Prayer Man to the frame; the front landing edge; and the west wall. These necessary lengths are created by the necessary dimensions of your claim when credibly connected to the necessary science. A simple observation of this incurred measure would show Prayer Man would have to be pulled far from the wall by the front landing edge side of this triangle (And to think I am the one being accused of "not bringing enough to the table"). You can't escape the science Alan. That's why they do forensics.
Your side is on borrowed time because if the Darnell original is ever analyzed it will prove what I'm saying. That analysis will show Prayer Man's face and open breast are facing Frazier along with the buttons. His arms are also open, grasping something with both hands (as Kamp admitted), and oriented towards Frazier. This is further evidenced below.
Alan Ford Wrote:In respect to Mr. Frantini, Mr. Parker and Mr. Kamp, where are you going to find people with more due diligence? People who genuinely care about advancing this issue in a way indicative of the justice JFK deserves.
Surely you are joking? Those men have ignored all of my arguments. Parker never answered for his one step down claim being refuted by Fratini and Kamp never answered to his admitting Prayer Man was manipulating something with both hands. Hardly what I would call "due diligence". More like running from the proof.
Alan Ford Wrote:Now, having said that, Mr. Doyle, rely less upon your own opinions, and accept the considerable distance between (not what I'm saying) but what the photographic evidence clearly shows in Mr. Darnell's image where the wrongfully accused's right elbow rests upon the pillar...a pillar mind you that in the image looking outward of the TSBD rests beyond the 3 foot landing, where Mr. Frazier is seen towering over everyone else in Mr. Darnell's photo.
I'm afraid you don't realize your own comments prove what I'm saying. For Prayer Man's shoulder to be leaning against the faux brickwork pillar would require him to be on the first step down. If you look at your own photos you will see the faux pillar is next to the first step down and not the landing. You must obey Fratini's evidence that Prayer Man is on the landing. It is correct, provable, and valid. Once you allow that Prayer Man is on the landing it is not anatomically possible that his elbow could be touching the faux pillar since your own photos show the pillar is at least a foot forward and a step down from the landing edge. If you look very carefully Prayer Man's elbow is further out than his shoulder. That isn't possible if he was leaning against the wall with his shoulder. And for Parker's crossed arms claim to be correct Prayer Man would have to have his arms cocked up to the left at an unnaturally uncomfortable angle.
You don't seem to grasp that Fratini's evidence (that you cite as due diligence) precludes Prayer Man's elbow from being in contact with the faux pillar by science. The only way Prayer Man's elbow could be in direct contact with the faux pillar would be if he was on the first step down. Mr Fratini's evidence disproves that. You are failing to answer for it or realize the fatal conflicts in what you write. Just look at your own pictures.
Alan Ford Wrote:I await evidence of your medical degree that allows you to determine where and when someone is leaning or not. Go ahead, make my day.
Meanwhile, please note Prayer Man's right elbow...
and, once again, see how forward of Mr. Frazier's position the pillar, where his right elbow rests, is by being honest instead of relying upon your opinion.
Sorry Alan but your posts show a serious lack of grasp of the scientific terms of the portal, its dimensions, and forensics.
With Fratini proving Prayer Man is on the landing, literally, the only way Prayer Man's elbow could appear to be in contact with the faux pillar brickwork would be if his arm and elbow were swung outward by facing Frazier. I thank you for pointing this out to me because it is yet another internal forensic indicator that is impervious to any claims of focal point skewing - that Mr Josephs has yet to credibly respond to.
I'm sorry but my points are directly connected to firm geometric triangulation science and specific forensic landmarks that the opposition appears to have no grasp of or how they prove what I'm saying.
