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29-09-2015, 05:52 PM
(This post was last modified: 30-09-2015, 08:57 AM by Magda Hassan.)
Quote:No wish to deflect the thread, which is very interesting, but we might also bear in mind the use of neo-nazis by the US in Ukraine. In other words this is not just history.
If you're aux fait with the gritty noir of the early Cold War in fiction, a common theme from the reds is the disdain at the casual and broad enrolement of ex-Nazis into the western fold, like from Colonel Stok in Funeral in Berlin.
Martin Luther King - "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
Albert Camus - "The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion".
Douglas MacArthur — "Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons."
Albert Camus - "Nothing is more despicable than respect based on fear."
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“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.â€
― Leo Tolstoy,
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Magda Hassan Wrote:I am told by some Chileans that it was some German intel service involved in Letelier's assassination in Washington. Even though the US had foreknowledge of it they were very angry with Germany for it happening. Also that Germany was involved with the assassination of Carlos Prat who as Chief of Army and a constitutionalist in self imposed exile in Rome would have been able to call the military to him and thus a real threat to Pinochet and his supporters. Michael Townley who worked for DINA was involved with both as were the Cubans Posada and friends who also were used by CIA on projects but apparently the equipment in both were supplied by German intel. Many of the Allende cabinet ministers and their families were given refuge in the DDR so I wonder if that is why the West German intel involvement. Obviously fascists help each other out as well.
Peter the communication equipment at CD is of a very advanced type also German origin. You couldn't walk across the country side there with out being spotted. 2 Brits, 1 Israeli and another one from some where I have forgotten tried it at various times and disappeared. Along with about 150 Chileans.
Very interesting. I didn't know this.
I will not be able to expand on Mertins for now due to time restrictions. When I come around to it, which hopefully will be next week, this will be my main source:
Ken Silverstein, Daniel Burton-Rose: Private Warriors. Verso, New York 2000, S. 109140.
My tentative thesis would be that the German (old Nazis and the CSU, mainly, conducting a more or less parallel foreign policy) contribution to transnational fascism (e.g. Gladio, Condor) from the 60s to the 80s is far more important than hitherto recognised.
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David Guyatt Wrote:No wish to deflect the thread, which is very interesting, but we might also bear in mind the use of neo-nazis by the US in Ukraine. In other words this is not just history.
[/QUOTE]
No, it is definitely not. With Ukraine, again, the German connection is an interesting one. Frederic Laurent in "L'Orchestre Noir" recounts a international neo-Nazi meeting in Munich in which Yaroslav Stetsko participated. As later with many members of the OAS, many Banderites including Bandera himself found refuge and protection in Munich. It was the "Fascist International", linked to the WACL, of course. I suspect that in Ukraine we are now witnessing the emergence of a comparable network, this time against Russia.
What makes you believe that Martin Bormann survived the war? A DNA analysis in 1999 seems to have confirmed that he died in 1945. Is there anything suspicious about the DNA analysis?
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Ralf Anders Wrote:[quote=David Guyatt]No wish to deflect the thread, which is very interesting, but we might also bear in mind the use of neo-nazis by the US in Ukraine. In other words this is not just history. Quote:No, it is definitely not. With Ukraine, again, the German connection is an interesting one. Frederic Laurent in "L'Orchestre Noir" recounts a international neo-Nazi meeting in Munich in which Yaroslav Stetsko participated. As later with many members of the OAS, many Banderites including Bandera himself found refuge and protection in Munich. It was the "Fascist International", linked to the WACL, of course. I suspect that in Ukraine we are now witnessing the emergence of a comparable network, this time against Russia.
What makes you believe that Martin Bormann survived the war? A DNA analysis in 1999 seems to have confirmed that he died in 1945. Is there anything suspicious about the DNA analysis?
I have read all the Bormann books and the evidence is now overwhelming that he did survive. Paul Manning's Bormann, Nazi in Exile that linked (free download) by R K Locke above is excellent. So too are William Stevenson's The Bormann Brotherhood (which probably is also free available to download), and Ladislas Farago's Aftermath - although Farago was silly to trust Allen Dulles as a source, since Dulles screwed him by providing a picture of Bormann in Argentina in the post war years for publication in his book that was later proved to be false. Also, one of Hugh Thomas's (the former surgeon and forensic expert - not the historian) books, and I now forget which one (but not the Himmler or Rudolf Hess - so must be the Hitler & Eva Braun one I guess) publishes Paraguayan intelligence or police files that reveal Bormann died in Paraguay (but I can't now remember the date, but believe it was late 1970's??).
So much propaganda and lies have been written about Bormann's supposed death in Berlin in 1945, and any stories attacking this authorized version of history have been so ruthlessly attacked (where possible) that one has to conclude that Bormann's survival is not just something that Germany had to keep secret but the US too. If this is the case, and I believe it to be, then it is hard not to conclude that Bormann either had information that would badly embarrass both nations, or he and his Brotherhood had worked with both nations in the final days of the war and/or post war.
Crazy fool that I am, I also now consider the evidence that Hitler & Braun survived the war and escaped to Argentina to be established.
The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge. Carl Jung - Aion (1951). CW 9, Part II: P.14
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David Guyatt Wrote:Ralf Anders Wrote:[quote=David Guyatt]No wish to deflect the thread, which is very interesting, but we might also bear in mind the use of neo-nazis by the US in Ukraine. In other words this is not just history. Quote:No, it is definitely not. With Ukraine, again, the German connection is an interesting one. Frederic Laurent in "L'Orchestre Noir" recounts a international neo-Nazi meeting in Munich in which Yaroslav Stetsko participated. As later with many members of the OAS, many Banderites including Bandera himself found refuge and protection in Munich. It was the "Fascist International", linked to the WACL, of course. I suspect that in Ukraine we are now witnessing the emergence of a comparable network, this time against Russia.
What makes you believe that Martin Bormann survived the war? A DNA analysis in 1999 seems to have confirmed that he died in 1945. Is there anything suspicious about the DNA analysis?
I have read all the Bormann books and the evidence is now overwhelming that he did survive. Paul Manning's Bormann, Nazi in Exile that linked (free download) by R K Locke above is excellent. So too are William Stevenson's The Bormann Brotherhood (which probably is also free available to download), and Ladislas Farago's Aftermath - although Farago was silly to trust Allen Dulles as a source, since Dulles screwed him by providing a picture of Bormann in Argentina in the post war years for publication in his book that was later proved to be false. Also, one of Hugh Thomas's (the former surgeon and forensic expert - not the historian) books, and I now forget which one (but not the Himmler or Rudolf Hess - so must be the Hitler & Eva Braun one I guess) publishes Paraguayan intelligence or police files that reveal Bormann died in Paraguay (but I can't now remember the date, but believe it was late 1970's??).
So much propaganda and lies have been written about Bormann's supposed death in Berlin in 1945, and any stories attacking this authorized version of history have been so ruthlessly attacked (where possible) that one has to conclude that Bormann's survival is not just something that Germany had to keep secret but the US too. If this is the case, and I believe it to be, then it is hard not to conclude that Bormann either had information that would badly embarrass both nations, or he and his Brotherhood had worked with both nations in the final days of the war and/or post war.
Crazy fool that I am, I also now consider the evidence that Hitler & Braun survived the war and escaped to Argentina to be established.
I agree with Dave that Bormann most likely went to Paraguay and died there, probably briefly through Argentina. The explanation of the apparently positive DNA test is the body tested was a deceased relative of Bormann's. As to Hitler, I'm not absolutely positive, but there is some evidence that he too faked his death and 'body' near the Bunker, fled to Argentina - and when things got hot for him there, moved on to Indonesia, where he died. I know for a fact that Mengele did not die when we are told he did, nor in the country we are told he did...so stranger things have happened. I wrote at length about Mengele on the EF long ago, but that all got 'disappeared' with all of my posts. A friend of mine who was a Nazi-hunter was looking at Mengele through a telescope at the very time the press worldwide was touting the exhumation of Mengele's bones. Tony [my friend] got fingerprints and other proofs it was Mengele. Two countries intelligence agencies quashed his story. That is the short version of a very complex tale.
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There have been a few big funerals in Chile of Nazis. When Oscar Ruif(sp?) who was a leader of the Nazi party there died all political parties invited except communist party. Which was probably still illegal and underground in any case. All parties sent some one. For some of them it was like they were blackmailed to attend. Others were big supporters. But it was all in public with much seig heiling and goose stepping. Not shameful private affairs but open triumphant public affairs. Nazis were big there from the beginning of the 1930s. Even before the Nazi take over of Germany there was a Nazi Youth group in the large German community almost all of which were supporters if not mebers of the Nazi party. But resistance to it was also long standing. The communist party is oldest in the world and predates the Russian revolution and Bolshevik party. Dr Salvadore Allende, one day to be Chilean president, and other outraged members of congress wrote a letter to Adolph Hitler denouncing the persecution of the Jews and Kristallnacht.
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Ralf Anders Wrote:I will not be able to expand on Mertins for now due to time restrictions. When I come around to it, which hopefully will be next week, this will be my main source:
Ken Silverstein, Daniel Burton-Rose: Private Warriors. Verso, New York 2000, S. 109140.
My tentative thesis would be that the German (old Nazis and the CSU, mainly, conducting a more or less parallel foreign policy) contribution to transnational fascism (e.g. Gladio, Condor) from the 60s to the 80s is far more important than hitherto recognised. Thank you Ralf. I look forward to it.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx
"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.
“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
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David Guyatt Wrote:Ralf Anders Wrote:[quote=David Guyatt]No wish to deflect the thread, which is very interesting, but we might also bear in mind the use of neo-nazis by the US in Ukraine. In other words this is not just history. Quote:No, it is definitely not. With Ukraine, again, the German connection is an interesting one. Frederic Laurent in "L'Orchestre Noir" recounts a international neo-Nazi meeting in Munich in which Yaroslav Stetsko participated. As later with many members of the OAS, many Banderites including Bandera himself found refuge and protection in Munich. It was the "Fascist International", linked to the WACL, of course. I suspect that in Ukraine we are now witnessing the emergence of a comparable network, this time against Russia.
What makes you believe that Martin Bormann survived the war? A DNA analysis in 1999 seems to have confirmed that he died in 1945. Is there anything suspicious about the DNA analysis?
I have read all the Bormann books and the evidence is now overwhelming that he did survive. Paul Manning's Bormann, Nazi in Exile that linked (free download) by R K Locke above is excellent. So too are William Stevenson's The Bormann Brotherhood (which probably is also free available to download), and Ladislas Farago's Aftermath - although Farago was silly to trust Allen Dulles as a source, since Dulles screwed him by providing a picture of Bormann in Argentina in the post war years for publication in his book that was later proved to be false. Also, one of Hugh Thomas's (the former surgeon and forensic expert - not the historian) books, and I now forget which one (but not the Himmler or Rudolf Hess - so must be the Hitler & Eva Braun one I guess) publishes Paraguayan intelligence or police files that reveal Bormann died in Paraguay (but I can't now remember the date, but believe it was late 1970's??).
So much propaganda and lies have been written about Bormann's supposed death in Berlin in 1945, and any stories attacking this authorized version of history have been so ruthlessly attacked (where possible) that one has to conclude that Bormann's survival is not just something that Germany had to keep secret but the US too. If this is the case, and I believe it to be, then it is hard not to conclude that Bormann either had information that would badly embarrass both nations, or he and his Brotherhood had worked with both nations in the final days of the war and/or post war.
Crazy fool that I am, I also now consider the evidence that Hitler & Braun survived the war and escaped to Argentina to be established.
The Stevenson book is on Scribd:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/36304215/Steve...973#scribd
Can't find the Farago book in PDF form but there is an extensive cache of Paperclip books and documents available here:
https://archive.org/details/jonesreport....pdocuments
(The usual caveats apply.)
There are also lots of Dave Emory shows which deal with this subject. The good thing about Emory is that he quotes extensively from books, so even if you don't agree with his POV you can still get plenty of raw info. Here is an interview with the son of Paul Manning:
https://archive.org/details/For_The_Reco...er_Manning
Some other shows on this subject:
https://archive.org/details/For_The_Reco...ganization
https://archive.org/details/For_The_Reco...eller_File
https://archive.org/details/For_The_Reco...ournalists
https://archive.org/details/For_The_Reco...in_Bormann
https://archive.org/details/For_The_Reco..._World_War
Plenty more here: https://archive.org/search.php?query=%22...bormann%22
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.â€
― Leo Tolstoy,
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David Guyatt Wrote:I have read all the Bormann books and the evidence is now overwhelming that he did survive. Paul Manning's Bormann, Nazi in Exile that linked (free download) by R K Locke above is excellent. So too are William Stevenson's The Bormann Brotherhood (which probably is also free available to download), and Ladislas Farago's Aftermath - although Farago was silly to trust Allen Dulles as a source, since Dulles screwed him by providing a picture of Bormann in Argentina in the post war years for publication in his book that was later proved to be false. Also, one of Hugh Thomas's (the former surgeon and forensic expert - not the historian) books, and I now forget which one (but not the Himmler or Rudolf Hess - so must be the Hitler & Eva Braun one I guess) publishes Paraguayan intelligence or police files that reveal Bormann died in Paraguay (but I can't now remember the date, but believe it was late 1970's??).
So much propaganda and lies have been written about Bormann's supposed death in Berlin in 1945, and any stories attacking this authorized version of history have been so ruthlessly attacked (where possible) that one has to conclude that Bormann's survival is not just something that Germany had to keep secret but the US too. If this is the case, and I believe it to be, then it is hard not to conclude that Bormann either had information that would badly embarrass both nations, or he and his Brotherhood had worked with both nations in the final days of the war and/or post war.
Crazy fool that I am, I also now consider the evidence that Hitler & Braun survived the war and escaped to Argentina to be established.
I know that you are not a "crazy fool". Nevertheless I find both scenarios hard to believe. I am well aware of the power of received wisdom and the shortcomings of the official narrative, i.e. that TPTB lie to us most of the time, but do not exclude the possibility that our institutions may actually speak the truth to us every once in a while.
If I find the time I will check out the sources you and Mr. Locke mention. Thank you very much.
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