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Polish President and Army Chief of Staff dead
#21
Charles Drago Wrote:There were two airports with in-alignment runways no more than a kilometer apart.
The polish plane attempted to land four times on the northern airport, which is Smolensk airbase.
From Wikipedia:
Smolensk Military (Russian военный аэродром "Смоленск-Северный", military aerodrome Smolensk-North) is an air base in Smolensk Oblast, Russia located 4 km north of Smolensk. It is a small mixed-use airfield with a remote revetment area with 8 pads and a Yakovlev factory at the southeast side of the airfield. It has 28 based Ilyushin Il-76 aircraft.
During the Cold War it was home to the 401 IAP (401st Interceptor Aviation Regiment) flying MiG-23P aircraft, which disbanded around 1990 with its MiG-23Ps assigned to 412 IAP at Dombarovsky. It has also been home to 871 IAP (871st Interceptor Aviation Regiment) flying MiG-23 and Su-27 aircraft in 1994, then MiG-29 aircraft in 2003. Airlift services are provided by 103 Gv VTAP (103rd Guards Military Air Transport Regiment) flying Ilyushin Il-76 jets.

The crew was warned of bad weather conditions (dense fog), but tried to land nonetheless, crashing at the fourth attempt after aborting three times. The airport does not have an instrument landing system (ILS).[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolensk_%28air_base%29#cite_note-ADD-0][/url]
The most relevant literature regarding what happened since September 11, 2001 is George Orwell's "1984".
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#22
Carsten Wiethoff Wrote:
Charles Drago Wrote:There were two airports with in-alignment runways no more than a kilometer apart.
The polish plane attempted to land four times on the northern airport, which is Smolensk airbase.
From Wikipedia:
Smolensk Military (Russian военный аэродром "Смоленск-Северный", military aerodrome Smolensk-North) is an air base in Smolensk Oblast, Russia located 4 km north of Smolensk. It is a small mixed-use airfield with a remote revetment area with 8 pads and a Yakovlev factory at the southeast side of the airfield. It has 28 based Ilyushin Il-76 aircraft.
During the Cold War it was home to the 401 IAP (401st Interceptor Aviation Regiment) flying MiG-23P aircraft, which disbanded around 1990 with its MiG-23Ps assigned to 412 IAP at Dombarovsky. It has also been home to 871 IAP (871st Interceptor Aviation Regiment) flying MiG-23 and Su-27 aircraft in 1994, then MiG-29 aircraft in 2003. Airlift services are provided by 103 Gv VTAP (103rd Guards Military Air Transport Regiment) flying Ilyushin Il-76 jets.

The crew was warned of bad weather conditions (dense fog), but tried to land nonetheless, crashing at the fourth attempt after aborting three times. The airport does not have an instrument landing system (ILS).

Kinda sounds like the JFK Jr. official explanation: foggy weather, bad visibility, pilot error/inexperience... 'Cept that the weather and visibility at Martha's Vineyard was fine that day. Wonder what the weather was actually like in western Russia.
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#23
Jan Klimkowski Wrote:
Myra Bronstein Wrote:In theory, what would Russia's motive be if they were, again, responsible?

Myra - it's the geopolitical context.
...

Thanks Jan. The geopolitical context is exactly what I lacked and needed.
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#24
Lots of witnesses to the crash, one interviewed here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/10...32924.html

Nothing very revealing: "I had been here 15 minutes when I saw the plane flying low, and I saw something serious was going on. It was cutting, cutting trees. Then over there, there was a big noise. Boom! Like a bomb."

Though I wondered how he could see if the fog was so thick.

Much more detail from these witnesses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OytAQFCk...r_embedded

One said the visibility was "no more than 50 meters."

Consistent accounts that the plane's wings brushed tree tops and the plane started to come apart.
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#25
Above, it is suggested, "The removal of the US missiles from Poland would be the obvious benefit to Russia."

Now this. It would appear that once again Poland is betrayed from two sides.

[Image: 2ba6hw.jpg]
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#26
The BBC just had a discussion of the incident in which several experts even touched upon the idea that many Poles will assume that there may have been foul play on the part of the Russians in this [not an accident, a conspiracy]......but after thrashing it out, the BBC lead concluded something to the effect that some people will always resort to 'conspiracy theories', but OBVIOUSLY Putin and Russian could not have had ANY hand in such a horrible crime. (more than hinting at the lack of clear thinking to even 'go there') Is the BBC so conservative, doing their job, or just blind to not entertain the possibility? Their guests certainly did! :alberteinstein:
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
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#27
Just thought this was interesting amateur commentary from an individual who is candid about the fact that he is not very knowledgeable about Polish/Russian history. He opines that the Russians did not want President Kaczynski to give a (no doubt embarrassing) speech in Russia. He closes by calling it the Polish equivalent of the JFK assassination:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/abra...y_id=61042

Though it wasn't an inside job like the JFK assassination.

Another comment at the same link: "President Lech Kaczynski did not have a great relationship with Russia. Reportedly President Kaczynski was attending the controversial event against the unofficial wishes of the Kremlin."
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#28
Peter Lemkin Wrote:Is the BBC so conservative, doing their job, or just blind to not entertain the possibility?:alberteinstein:

Just the MSM being the MSM. All conspiracies must be a theory.

Ordinarily, if this were the work of, say, the Brits or Uncle, there would already be a wide disinformation campaign in progress to muddy the waters. This doesn't seem to be the case here?
The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego-personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. This act is the essential condition for any kind of self-knowledge.
Carl Jung - Aion (1951). CW 9, Part II: P.14
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#29
Peter - yes. MSM is saying "if you even consider foul play, then you're a conspiracy theorist and a fantasist", and beyond the pale.

Cue the offering below in The Observer from Neil Acherson, which concludes: "Putin, who uneasily visited Katyn with the Polish prime minister on Wednesday, dislikes Polish aspirations but does not murder foreign heads of state."

Ascherson is instructing us to obey authorized and officially sanctioned history.

The message from TPTB is that politicians are decent folk who settle disputes over cups of tea and four course dinners in swanky country estates. They don't murder other people. Heaven forbid! :argh:

Indeed, Ascherson's piece is borderline racist with its description of Polish thinking as being guided by "mystical coincidence".

Katyn was a Soviet war crime.

Sikorski was almost certainly assassinated in an act of pure realpolitick.

There's nothing mystical about that. Just blood, tears and murder.

Ascherson's nonsense is below:

Quote:Phantoms that haunt the people return

Poles may may feel that their county has not escaped the many nightmares of their past, and is trapped in a cycle of tragedy

By Neil Ascherson

The air crash at Smolensk is more than a tragedy of lives lost, And it is more than a national disaster: the death of a president with his wife and all his retinue. It is also a test of nerve, for all Poles the world over. They are asking themselves: have we truly escaped from the nightmares of Poland's past? Or have the demons returned to surround us once again, those giant bloodstained phantoms who came out of the forest to destroy every Polish generation for two centuries?

For 20 years, since the fall of communism, Poland has lived at peace with its neighbours and the Poles have enjoyed a rising prosperity. At last Poland was becoming the "normal country" it never was before, in the times when its fate was to be invaded by Russian and German armies, and its hope lay in suicidally brave but vain uprisings. That old Poland lived in cycles, a hermetic history of repression, betrayal, resistance and rebellion. Everyone knew a list of dates and places – tragedies, resurrections, noble "Polish January" or piteous "Polish September" – which meant nothing to a foreigner.

So the joy of normality was that all those dates and all their haunting code could at last be forgotten.

But now this. On the way to the mass grave in Katyn forest, where Stalin murdered the military and civil elite of Poland in April 1940, the president of a free Poland dies as his Russian plane crashes into the trees a few miles from Katyn itself. He and his wife and the military, religious and political leaders who came with them intended to honour the Polish dead who lie in that piece of Russian earth. Now they have joined those dead men and become part of that tragedy, precisely 70 years on.

A people whose collective memory has relied so much on mystical coincidence, the sense of a providence sometimes loving but often malign, will be tempted for a moment to think that Katyn will never be over, that Lech Kaczynski and his companions are not just part of the tragedy but part of the crime.

Millions of Poles, hearing this news, will have caught themselves thinking "Gibraltar!" – then made themselves suppress the thought. On 4 July 1943, General Wladyslaw Sikorski, head of the free Polish government in exile, was killed when his plane crashed at Gibraltar. The British said it was an accident. Many Poles, then and now, didn't and don't believe them.

They point out that the crash took place only three months after the Germans discovered the mass graves at Katyn; when Sikorski accused the Soviet Union of the crime, Stalin endangered the whole anti-Hitler alliance by breaking off relations with free Poland. Wasn't it obvious that the British and the Soviets had a common interest in getting rid of Sikorski? And doesn't Vladimir Putin hate and fear outspoken Polish leaders as much as Tsar Nicholas or Stalin had done? And wasn't that what the ex-president, Lech Walesa, meant when he exclaimed yesterday that "this is the second Katyn tragedy; the first time, they tried to cut our head off and now again the elite of our country has perished"?

But it's paranoid nonsense which any Pole can be excused for entertaining for an awful moment – but which then blows away in the fresh air. Smolensk is not Gibraltar. The Russian-built plane was the president's own, not a cunning loan from Moscow. Putin, who uneasily visited Katyn with the Polish prime minister on Wednesday, dislikes Polish aspirations but does not murder foreign heads of state.

Poland today is not cursed by destiny but by a brutal share of bad luck. This weekend it proved it was "a normal country" as the constitutional provisions for electing a new president went smoothly into action.

I knew and liked some of the people who died at Smolensk yesterday. They would not have denied that phantoms still lurk in the forest of Polish imaginations. But they wanted them to stay hidden among the trees.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr...-kaczynski
"It means this War was never political at all, the politics was all theatre, all just to keep the people distracted...."
"Proverbs for Paranoids 4: You hide, They seek."
"They are in Love. Fuck the War."

Gravity's Rainbow, Thomas Pynchon

"Ccollanan Pachacamac ricuy auccacunac yahuarniy hichascancuta."
The last words of the last Inka, Tupac Amaru, led to the gallows by men of god & dogs of war
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#30
Here's something heartwarming, Putin leaving blood red (like in Dallas) flowers at the site of the crash.

http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&...in+flowers


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