Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE?

[Jim Hargrove]

If Fowler was a CIA plant to discredit Garrison or just keep tabs on his investigation, and the double story originates with him, don't you at least have to consider the possibility that the "doubles" story was CIA-designed to be a straw man for Garrison to take a swing at and then be discredited?

Considering the trainload of evidence that has emerged over the years for two Oswalds, that would seem to be a dangerous play, even for an outfit with full knowledge of what Garrison was up against. Boxley/Wood, at least ostensibly, was let go by the Agency a decade before the Garrison investigation.

Edit: Also, Garrison was at the same round-table discussion where Boxley talked about the two Oswalds, and there is no indication in the transcript that he made any objection.

[Drew Phipps]

It was Garrison who had the information, not Fowler.

I might have to re-read Destiny Betrayed, but who do you suppose was feeding this information to Garrison?

[Peter Lemkin]

Jim, I hope you don't mind my reposting what you recently posted on the EF [among many, many others]. This is the testimony of Marita Lorenz, someone I've had the opportunity to meet and interview in person. I found her credible about most subjects and rather than lying would simply respond with a 'no-comment' or 'I'm not going there' on a few things. It is very damning to the idea there were not two 'Oswalds'. Rorke is also interesting, as he was well known to Tosh Plumlee [as were Marita and Fiorini]. Plumlee knew a lot of these people who knew one or both 'Oswalds'. Tosh even claims to have been in the same ONI training facility with one Oswald who he later met in Dallas. I've never gotten Plumlee to say yea or nay on the notion of two Oswalds....he may well know personally if there were two.

Marita Lorenz also told the HSCA that American-born Lee Oswald was involved with anti-Castro mercenaries in the U.S. while Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald was in the Soviet Union, but, of course, the HSCA was more interested in discrediting her than in following up on her leads:

Mr. Fithian: "Now is it your testimony that the first time you saw Oswald would have been in the camps in the Everglades?"
Marita Lorenz: "The very first time, no. I saw him in the Safehouse and then in the camps."
Mr. Fithian: "And that first meeting at the Safehouse would have been within a year of the Bay of Pigs?"
Marita Lorenz: "I would say 1960."
Mr. Fithian: "It would be some time during 1960?"
Marita Lorenz: "Late 1960."
Mr. Fithian: "All right. Now I want to be sure that I have your dates correct. You said the first meeting of LEE Harvey Oswald, the first time you saw him, was at a Safehouse in Miami in 1960."
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "The next time or times that you saw him were during training at a camp in the Everglades, various places in the Everglades, in early 1960, 1961 period?"
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "And after that you saw him at the Safehouse the second time?"
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "What makes you so sure of the dates. Within a year of the first meeting in the Safehouse and the meeting at the camps in the Everglades, is there anything else you could match that up with?"
Marita Lorenz: "The photographs, the events that took place. the photographs that Alex (Rorke) took. Everywhere we went Alex took pictures."
Mr. Fithian: "This was prior to the Bay of Pigs?"
Marita Lorenz: "Yes, April, 1961, was the Bay of Pigs."
Mr. Fithian: "And you are sure you saw him (Oswald) before April, 1961."
Marita Lorenz: "Yes, because Alex took the pictures."
Mr. Fithian: "And the whole purpose of the training was to somehow participate or help in the Bay of Pigs.
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "Did you see Oswald at any time in the intervening two years between early 1961 prior to April of 1961 and the September-October Safehouse meeting in 1963?"
Marita Lorenz: "No, but Frank (Sturgis) kept in touch with me. Alex kept in touch with me."
Mr. Fithian: "Mrs. Lorenz, has your attorney explained what perjury before a congressional committee is all about?"
Marita Lorenz: "That is right, yes."
Mr. Fithian: "In any way do you want to change your testimony on these dates?"
Marita Lorenz: "No, I do not."
Mr. Fithian: "There is adequate documentary evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald did not indeed return from the Soviet Union until June of 1962.
Marita Lorenz: "I don't know about that."
Mr. Fithian: "Therefore you could not have met him at the Safehouse in 1960, you could not have seen him in the Everglades in 1960 and 1961, and you could not have taken a picture in those areas and could not have a picture for the dates of that time."
Marita Lorenz: "No?"
Mr. Fithian: "It is not possible."
Marita Lorenz: "I don't know about that."
Mr. Fithian: "Now can you explain to the committee why you gave us this false information as far as dates?"
Marita Lorenz: "I did not give you false information."
Mr. Fithian: "Mrs. Lorenz, I went over your testimony very carefully a moment ago and you assured me that you met Lee Harvey Oswald prior to the Bay of Pigs."
Marita Lorenz: "I did."
Mr. Fithian: "On two occasions."
Marita Lorenz: "Yes."
Mr. Fithian: "Lee Harvey Oswald was in Russia during that entire period."
Marita Lorenz: "I do not know that. I did not know that. The Lee Harvey Oswald that I met was the same in that picture, the one in the Safehouse. the same one that Frank knows. I do not know where he was according to your information. I do not know. I never read up on anything about these theories that are coming out about him."
Mr. Fithian: "This is not a matter of theory."
Marita Lorenz: "I know I am telling the truth. If you don't want it, that's too bad, you know. I am here to gain nothing, you know. Nothing. Nothing at all. You are trying a homicide investigation that should be solved, you know. Don't dispute me or put me on trial."
Mr. Fithian: "Only if we can have full and truthful testimony."
Marita Lorenz: "You have got it. You have it from me. I don't know about the other people. I have nothing to lose and nothing to hide-nothing.
Mr. Fithian: "And it is your testimony that you are certain that the person you met at the Safehouse and at the camps of the Everglades is the same person that you met in Dallas."
Marita Lorenz: "Yes, it is."
Mr. Fithian: "Do you have any explanation for how we come up with two Lee Harvey Oswalds during this period?"
Marita Lorenz: "I have no explanation. I know the man I met; he was a creep. I didn't like him. I don't have to be here at all. I have nothing to gain.
Mr. Fithian: "Thank you. That is all."

CIA asset/photographer Alex Rorke had taken photos of LEE Oswald in Florida (1960-61) while HARVEY Oswald was in the Soviet Union. Rorke died in an airplane crash in Mexico in May 1964, along with Hugh Ward, DeLessups Morrison (former Mayor of New Orleans), his 7-year-old son Christopher, Daleigh Pellegrin and Ovide Cena

[Jim Hargrove]

Thanks, Peter.

Since we've been discussing Garrison and his views on the two Oswalds, I wanted to post a one-page excerpt of the transcript now at the National Archives of a New Orleans conference, held on Sept. 21, 1968, which featured a very long round table discussion with Garrison, Turner, Fensterwald, Sprague, and, apparently, Bill Boxley. In the page that follows, F is Fensterwald, Box is Boxley, and G. is Garrison.



The discussion about two Oswalds occurs in several places in the transcript and literally goes on for pages and pages. Anyone interested in reading the full document can download the Garrison 1 and Garrison 2 files at John's Baylor University collection.

[Peter Lemkin]

That's quite fascinating.....Garrison was on to so very many essential things....that is why they 'shut him down' - along with his Shaw Trial [and much of the way that was done is now exposed in documents]. Truth is perhaps the MOST dangerous commodity around - and many have died or had their lives ruined for trying to get it out on important subjects. Hard Truths also attract a lot of trolls on internet forums - from the denier types that just can't go 'there' [where there is their own country doing evil things], to those who work with/for those who keep the evil untruths promulgated by challenging those who'd dare to question 'received history' of political events - more specifically Deep Political events, especially false-flag Deep Political events!

I think that is why JA and his basic premise get so much flack. If he really were 'off the deep end' and in 'looney-tunes land' he'd not even be noticed, much less attacked as he is, and his well-documented and researched theory is. Even if one doesn't subscribe to the basic premise, one really has a lot of head scratching and thinking outside the 'propaganda box' to explain away all the anomalies and impossibilities. For me, his theory best explains the observed events and documentation now available. For the provocateurs any doubt will do - and they throw it with wild abandon hoping to make others doubt too. I only suggest any honest explorer of the case will read JA's book or look at his website [or this thread] and judge for yourself....were you told the truth about 'Oswald' by the 'authorities'...or were you lied to and misled every step of the way?! ::

[Albert Doyle]

Just like Armstrong Garrison obviously had many sources. The deniers have quieted down while the evidence for Oswald doubles continues to flow like an unending spring.

[Jim DiEugenio]

Its important to remember that Boxley was a plant.

But, he was a very good plant.

So much so, that Garrison did not suspect him until Salandria exposed him.

[Jim Hargrove]

Yes, his disappearing act after Garrison and Salandria called him, and that unused apartment are telling. But my point was to show that Garrison felt quite at home discussing false Oswalds in public. And, of course, there is that famous quote from his memo to Lou Ivon:

If you really want to know what I think, it is that Robert Oswald knew this returning defector was not really Lee, and this is what Robert's problem was the night of the assassination when he found it necessary to take such a long drive to think things out. He knew things were far more complicated than they appeared on the surface.

Of course, if JA is right about the length of the double dealing, Robert may not have been as surprised as Mr. Garrison thought.

[Albert Doyle]

The main witnesses acting under national security stand down orders or non-disclosure fits the evidence, as does the investigating bodies also covering-up under a similar premise.

[Jim Hargrove]