Graphic model of JFK assassination perps

[Myra Bronstein]

Does this attachment seem accurate (if not aesthetic)?

Input?

[Charles Drago]

Not to me, Myra. Although I do dig your use of a pentagon.

I can't argue for a "right" and "wrong" version, but only reiterate my favored three-tiered model: Sponsors, Facilitators, Mechanics.

Your design seems to focus far too heavily on False Sponsors (LBJ, for example, who resides at the core of the graphic representation as you render it), many of whom were elevated to such status (involuntarily) from the Facilitators level in order to protect the real Sponsors.

(Another way to think of this: "The CIA" is not the sculptor, but "only" the hammer that strikes the chisels. Or: "The CIA" is not a policy maker, but rather a policy implementer. Neither Helms nor even Angleton should be seen as a Sponsor of the hit.)

To be sure, all individuals and groups noted in your model belong there. Where we differ is on the appreciation of their respective positionings within the conspiracy structure.

[Jack White]

Not to me, Myra. Although I do dig your use of a pentagon.

I can't argue for a "right" and "wrong" version, but only reiterate my favored three-tiered model: Sponsors, Facilitators, Mechanics.

Your design seems to focus far too heavily on False Sponsors (LBJ, for example, who resides at the core of the graphic representation as you render it), many of whom were elevated to such status (involuntarily) from the Facilitators level in order to protect the real Sponsors.

(Another way to think of this: "The CIA" is not the sculptor, but "only" the hammer that strikes the chisels. Or: "The CIA" is not a policy maker, but rather a policy implementer. Neither Helms nor even Angleton should be seen as a Sponsor of the hit.)

To be sure, all individuals and groups noted in your model belong there. Where we differ is on the appreciation of their respective positionings within the conspiracy structure.

Charles proposes a PYRAMID with 3 tiers.

My pyramid has 5 tiers, but I could settle for 3 with subgroups.

However, I disagree with Charles on which persons/groups are in each
tier.

I would even add an AUXILIARY TIER...FALSE SPONSORS.

Jack

Myra's PENTAGON leaves out Charles' extremely important SPONSORS.

[Charles Drago]

Happy New Year, Jack! Hope you and yours are well.

My pyramid tiers definitely support sub-levels (as I've pointed out previously), including False Sponsors (both from within and without the actual conspiracy; LBJ and space aliens, respectively and for example).

And for the record, it was George Michael Evica who first proposed the three-tier model. As always, I'm chasing him.

Aren't we all?

Warmest regards for a peaceful and safe 2009.

Charles

[Myra Bronstein]

Charles proposes a PYRAMID with 3 tiers.

My pyramid has 5 tiers, but I could settle for 3 with subgroups.

However, I disagree with Charles on which persons/groups are in each
tier.

I would even add an AUXILIARY TIER...FALSE SPONSORS.

Jack

Myra's PENTAGON leaves out Charles' extremely important SPONSORS.

Jack, your five tiers would be: Sponsors, Facilitators, Mechanics, False Sponsors, and what else?

And who would be in the False Sponsor tier?

Thanks Jack and Charlie for the input.

[Myra Bronstein]

...
Your design seems to focus far too heavily on False Sponsors (LBJ, for example, who resides at the core of the graphic representation as you render it), many of whom were elevated to such status (involuntarily) from the Facilitators level in order to protect the real Sponsors.
...

Actually LBJ was only in the center pentagon because IMO the Nov 22, 1963 Senate Rules Committee was hearing testimony from Bobby Baker friend Don B. Reynolds that LBJ demanded kickbacks & ads purchase on his radio station KTBC. Reynolds described "$100,000 payoff to LBJ for his role in securing Fort Worth TFX contract."

I think that dictated the timing of the assassination. If it happened any later LBJ would have gone to jail.

But that wasn't clear on the diagram. Other than that I think LBJ led the cover up along with Hoover, though he had advance knowledge of the murder making him an accessory during and after the fact.

...
(Another way to think of this: "The CIA" is not the sculptor, but "only" the hammer that strikes the chisels. Or: "The CIA" is not a policy maker, but rather a policy implementer. Neither Helms nor even Angleton should be seen as a Sponsor of the hit.)

To be sure, all individuals and groups noted in your model belong there. Where we differ is on the appreciation of their respective positionings within the conspiracy structure.

I think we agree on the role of the CIA. I list them (with their mafia partners) as "Tacticians." In other words I think they did the wet work. But the Military and Money men/Financers got things going, and likely prepared a contingency plan, i.e., armed forces in US streets.

My next attempt at a graphic will be clearer. I'm discarding the pentagon model.

[Charles Drago]

I think that dictated the timing of the assassination. If it happened any later LBJ would have gone to jail.

Yes and no.

Those who wished to implicate Johnson as a FALSE SPONSOR benefit from the timing and all it implies. But LBJ did not call this or any other major shot.

(He stated with authority ... )

I think we agree on the role of the CIA. I list them (with their mafia partners) as "Tacticians." In other words I think they did the wet work.

And some pre- and post-shooting dry work.

But the Military and Money men/Financers got things going, and likely prepared a contingency plan, i.e., armed forces in US streets.

Depends on your definition of "got things going."

Did they sponsor/give the "go" order? No.

My next attempt at a graphic will be clearer. I'm discarding the pentagon model.

But the Pentagon is so ... appropriate.

[Myra Bronstein]

Yes and no.
Those who wished to implicate Johnson as a FALSE SPONSOR benefit from the timing and all it implies. But LBJ did not call this or any other major shot.
...

What on earth did that corrupt murderous bastard LBJ do to earn your confidence that he wasn't amongst the corrupt murderous bastards that set up the hit on JFK?

Depends on your definition of "got things going."

Did [the military] sponsor/give the "go" order? No.

Ok who gave the go order?

Hey, BTW Charlie I just now saw the thread:
http://www.deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/...ural+Model/The JFK Plot: A Structural Model

Which makes this thread redundant. Sorry about that. Shall I combine them, or lock this one and link to the Structural Model thread?

I'm glad we're working on a model. I think it's important to define that.

[Myra Bronstein]

Discussion continued at this thread:
http://www.deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/...ural+Model

[Charles Drago]

What on earth did that corrupt murderous bastard LBJ do to earn your confidence that he wasn't amongst the corrupt murderous bastards that set up the hit on JFK?

Myra, in a story as complex and riddled with disinformation as is the JFK conspiracy, we must be at pains to define our terms with the ultimate precision.

Again, what do you mean by "set up"?

Did LBJ coordinate the logistics? Did he conceive the drama? Did he have the expertise to oversee the hit on the operational level?

Or are you suggesting that he set the plan in motion? That he was the authority from which all else was released?

Do you view LBJ as a Sponsor? A False Sponsor and/or Facilitator?

I'm not trying to be difficult, believe me. My own learning curve, steep and daunting, is far from being fully traversed.

Johnson was a hillbilly thug with a CEO's brain and a steroid addict's balls. To the real Sponsors of the hit, he was an expendable simpleton to be used and abused.

LBJ was danced through a pre-hit cotillion in which he was seduced into the plot, encouraged to think he was giving orders, and then, on the night before the Sponsors' Christmas, he was told how the real world worked.

Landslide Lyndon was a cowering wreck on the 22nd, and forever after he obeyed orders. The threat of exposure hung heavily over him, and he facilitated the cover-up out of fear.

I'm reminded of Don Corleone's insight: "Tattaglia's a pimp. He never could've out-fought Santino. But I didn't know until this day that it was Barzini all along. ... "

LBJ as Tattaglia. And as Barzini ... ?

Ok who gave the go order?

The process of elimination gets rid of the lion's share of the False Sponsors proffered over the years -- and the majority of that group emerged from the guilty-as-hell Facilitator level of the conspiracy.

So who's left? Who's Barzini?

I wish I knew. Because if and when we identify the true Sponsors, we will have identified not the individuals, but the forces that have controlled this system since its inception.

Evica described them as the "masters who were above Cold War differences."

LBJ would have accessed their homes -- if he had been invited, which he wasn't -- via the servants' entrance.

I'm glad we're working on a model. I think it's important to define that.

I'm glad, too, and I share your sense of the importance of establishing a mutually acceptable sense of structure.

Without it, no real progress past this point can be made.

Let's keep hashing this out, and let's not be afraid to do so with nearly as much passion as intellectual rigor.