Pirates Ahoy!

[Damien Lloyd]

You can't give Ridley grief over "Blackhawk down", not when it came after "G.I. Jane". He also made "Gladiator"... What a bastard.

[David Guyatt]

(I downloaded a VHS conversion of it from the Piratebay, as you can't get it on DVD).

I think you meant to say that you considered downloading it from Piratebay, right?

I also consider downloading from there almost every day. But I am able, by sheer force of will, to stop myself from doing so. And so I can only comment in the most general way about lots of films. Like the Russian film "Night Watch" (Nochnoi Dozor) which I'm about to consider commenting on in due course -- after I have considered watching it.

Phew! Got that off my chest.

Btw, have either of you seen the Spanish film Pan's Labyrinth which I found most enjoyable?

[Jan Klimkowski]

And I completely agree about redux except for one thing, the playboy bunnies at the camp. If that scene alone had been in the original I think Willards character would be truly terrifying. Finding the bunnies drugged up and being used as sex slaves, Willard uses it to his advantage. His river escorts had no problem continuing up river after that. And Willard is stripped of any humanity, or compassion that the viewer may have begrudgingly bestowed upon him prior to that.

Excellent point. Which again highlights the fluid nature of storytelling.

If Apocalypse Now had just the drugged up Playboy bunnies scene added, Willard would be even more the character you describe. Their obedient slave blind to everything except his mission.

However, in the context of Redux, with the extra scenes (eg stealing the surfboard) and smiling and joking with the crew of the boat, I interpret Willard's actions in the Playboy bunnies' metal bunker as more compassionate than ruthlessly manipulative.

When making documentaries, working with a great editor, I've found that cutting room problems with a film can often be solved by cutting out a scene, changing the order of another, restoring a couple of reaction shots etc.

The Playboy bunnies in the muddy hellhole is a great example of two things:
the power of a scene both to change the overall meaning of a film;
and the manner in which a scene can have different meanings in different contexts.

It was dropped from the original Apocalype Now. However, if it had been added and not another frame of the original had been changed, Willard would - as you say - have been an even more terrifying character.

[Damien Lloyd]

(I downloaded a VHS conversion of it from the Piratebay, as you can't get it on DVD).

I think you meant to say that you considered downloading it from Piratebay, right?

I also consider downloading from there almost every day. But I am able, by sheer force of will, to stop myself from doing so. And so I can only comment in the most general way about lots of films. Like the Russian film "Night Watch" (Nochnoi Dozor) which I'm about to consider commenting on in due course -- after I have considered watching it.

Phew! Got that off my chest.

Btw, have either of you seen the Spanish film Pan's Labyrinth which I found most enjoyable?

Night watch and Day Watch are both good films, but the books are excellent. I saw Pan's Labyrinth only a little while ago, it was great. I thought the ending was tragic, my girlfriend thought it uplifting. We watched the film together and have completely opposing views as to what the ending meant. I don't want to say more here in case I ruin it for anybody else.

Did you get hold of the Fountain yet? I really want to know what you think of it. I keep lending it to people who then accuse me of wasting hours of their lives (bet they loved Blair witch though:dong.

Jan... We are in complete agrement regarding redux. I might even upload both versions and re-edit the "Ultimate Cut" on Premiere Pro

[Charles Drago]

Jan, Damien,

As Jan knows, I share your enthusiasm for Blade Runner, and in particular the meditation on the nature of soul as proffered in Roy's death scene.

The white dove that suddenly appears in his hand is his newly "earned" immortality -- the spirit -- that somehow he has gained through his trevails. Roy's speech builds toward the ultimate climax: He conceives a metaphor.

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die."

The replicant creates artistic expression --"like tears in rain" ... and finally his totality is greater than the sum of his material inventory. Art as prayer and benediction.

Then it is time to die -- clearly Roy's reference to Ecclesiastes 3:2 -- and when he passes, Roy's soul-as-dove is released to soar heavenward.

Roy may indeed have done "questionable things ... but nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't put you in heaven for."

We also should remember that previously, during his extraordinary conversation with Tyrell, Roy had exhibited an astounding knowledge of biomechanics. But all of it is quantifiable and predictable -- and none of it can withstand Tyrell's greater knowledge and insight. It's Catechism 101, and the altar boy is being taught a lesson by the Pope. At that point, Roy is simply a machine.

But not for long.

Androids, it seems, do dream of electric sheep. And when they interpret meaning from the dreams, they and the sheep become ... real.

CD

[Damien Lloyd]

http://www.bfi.org.uk/whatson/bfi_southb..._final_cut

Friday 20th and Saturday 21st June Blade Runner Final Cut at the IMAX. I am seriously considering a little trip to London.

I can't believe I missed the reference to Ecclesiastes. I think you're definately onto something with your interpretation of the ending. The dove rises to meet the God of biomechanics after Roy redeems himself by saving a precious life. But what of Deckards tortured soul? Left to contemplate his own mortality and the sins he's commited?

[Jan Klimkowski]

The replicant creates artistic expression --"like tears in rain" ... and finally his totality is greater than the sum of his material inventory. Art as prayer and benediction.

Then it is time to die -- clearly Roy's reference to Ecclesiastes 3:2 -- and when he passes, Roy's soul-as-dove is released to soar heavenward.

Roy may indeed have done "questionable things ... but nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't put you in heaven for."

We also should remember that previously, during his extraordinary conversation with Tyrell, Roy had exhibited an astounding knowledge of biomechanics. But all of it is quantifiable and predictable -- and none of it can withstand Tyrell's greater knowledge and insight. It's Catechism 101, and the altar boy is being taught a lesson by the Pope. At that point, Roy is simply a machine.

But not for long.

Androids, it seems, do dream of electric sheep. And when they interpret meaning from the dreams, they and the sheep become ... real.

CD

Great interpretation. To which I would simply suggest...

Dreams and memories.

Roy asks the other male replicant, Leon, if he's found his "precious photos".

The photos represent Leon's memories. But not real memories. Implanted memories.

As Charles suggests, it's when these dreams and memories have resonant meaning for an individual that that individual possesses "soul" in the value system that permeates virtually all of Philip K Dick's work.

This of course is made very clear after Deckard exposes Rachael's "baby spider" memory as belonging to Tyrell's niece. Rachael is a replicant. She had no childhood. And so she has no childhood memories. And Deckard retreats to a bottle of liquor, his piano, and photos of his own childhood memories.... His proof of his own superior authenticity, or soul....

Meanwhile, Earthly Father Tyrell has realized that his replicant creations need memories - to grasp a sense of their own reality. So he clones the memories of his family and implants them in his Nexus-6 replicants.

For functional, business, productivity, reasons.

Which produce an unintended consequence in the epiphanies of Roy, Rachael, and finally Deckard himself.

[URL]I can't believe I missed the reference to Ecclesiastes. I think you're definately onto something with your interpretation of the ending. The dove rises to meet the God of biomechanics after Roy redeems himself by saving a precious life. But what of Deckards tortured soul? Left to contemplate his own mortality and the sins he's commited?

The "precious life" Roy saves is that of a bounty hunter and killer. The Blade Runner, Deckard, whose job is to "terminate skin jobs".

Roy kills Tyrell, his Earthly Maker. And then saves Deckard, a brutal sinner who has killed Roy's friends and would have killed Roy himself, given the chance.

And what of Deckard's "tortured soul"?

In the butchered ending of the original version, Deckard fancies Rachael, learns she's "special" and has "no termination date", and they ride off into some bourgeois sunset holding hands in a space buggy. :bootyshake: Groan. No transcendence there...

In the Final/Director's cut, Deckard's persona is more fundamentally changed both by Roy's act of nobility in saving him (from a machine, Deckard is thinking?) and by disgust at his own actions of slaughter. Deckard decides to spirit Rachael away from the clutches of other Blade Runners, even though he knows she will shortly die.

Then, crossing the hallway to the apartment, he sees the origami unicorn - the reference to his own dream, known to noone except himself. The paper figure was created by the oriental cop, who has access to Deckard's personnel file, and placed where Deckard would find it.

In his head, Deckard hears the cop's words on the rainswept rooftop, taunting him about Rachael: "Too bad she won't live. But then again, who does?"

Deckard's own existential fate is revealed to him. But his replicant soul has probably been redeemed by his decision to save Rachael when Deckard still believed he was of a superior (human) species....

Or something like that.... :dancing:

[Damien Lloyd]

Again, complete agreement. Now tell me "Blair Witch Project" has no redeemable features and we'll have a hat trick, lol.