Was there a body swap at the autopsy at Bethesda?

[Betty Chruscielski]

Back in 1994 Robert Morningstar developed the theory that JD Tippit's body was swaped for JFK. I was wondering what the learned members of this forum thought about that theory. I would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks, Betty

[Charles Drago]

Robert Morningstar is a dear friend who I last saw at George Michael Evica's funeral service.

He is also a source of spiritual insight and courage and controversy among JFK researchers.

I don't harbor a great deal of enthusiasm for Robert's Tippet-Kennedy body switch hypothesis. But I respect this and other aspects of his work on the JFK assassination and other deep political events as serious, thought-provoking research, and I most assuredly will NOT join the chorus of Robert's detractors who so swiftly and thoughtlessly dismiss his ideas.

I will, however, direct the attention of readers of this post to another thread started by "Betty Chruscielski" titled "Yes Virginia, there was a lead car" and found at

https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/sho...car./page4

In it, "Chruscielski" argues that JFK was shot by Greer AND by an occupant of the motorcade's lead car.

As I noted in post #39 of that thread:

The Greer and Lead Car "arguments" have been exposed for what they are -- fictions designed to distract and fragment JFK assassination investigators.

Is "Betty Chruscielski" simply a well-intentioned fool? An agent of disinformation? A real person or a composite identity?

In the final analysis, "her" intentions and identity are of keen interest. But "her" presentations here must be treated with utter disdain.

Expose the falsehoods. Laugh "her" out of the room.

But under no circumstances engage "her" in debate.

If we do, then the killers of JFK win the day.

I stand by these words today.

[Betty Chruscielski]

Thank you for your response. I do feel I need to clarify a couple of points. For one thing I no longer support the Greer theory. I never argued for the Greer theory. I simply believed those theorists who put forth that theory. Now after reading the testimony of the Parkland doctors I realize the Greer theory is not plausible.
The second point I want to clarify is that I still support the lead car theory although probably not a bullet from the lead car. The first research I rely on is Doug Weldon's research on the hole in the front windshield of the presidential limo. Although I disagree with him on where that shot came from. Next research I rely on is Gill Jesus' video, "Was JFK trying to cough up a bullet". That video shows that something startlied Connally and that Kennedy tried to loosen his collar and tie. Because of Gil's video I no longer believe JFK's arm motion was a neurological response to being hit in the spine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpFHYwot6bk
I disagree with Gil Jesus in the thought that what hit JFK was a bullet. The reason I disagree with Gil, is that if JFK was choking on something he would have displayed the universal choke signal with both hands clutching his throat. Instead JFK went limp. While Connally was writhing in pain JFK went limp. He was limp before he was hit with the head shot. I read a theory that umbrella man hit JFK with a paralytic from his umblella. I do not agree with this but I do agree with the paralytic theory. The paralytic would cause JFK to go limp and be stationary for the head shot.
Other research I've done on the lead car makes me support it even more. I was challenged by a member of this forum, "What happened to the back window?". In 1963 there was a car called Mercury Breezeway it's rear window rolled down by means of a switch at the driver's command. The lead car was not a Mercury Breezeway. I believe it was a Ford Galaxy but the mechanism to roll down the window could have been installed in the lead car. http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/mercury.htm
Another point is Sherriff Decker's 5323 exhibit. http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc..._0238b.htm. He did not testify before the WC regarding his time in the lead car but he did give the testimony contained in this exhibit. In this testimony he stated that he looked over his shoulder and saw spray from JFK's head. If Decker was facing forward to look back he would have had to look over his right shoulder. Decker had a glass eye. In Decker's pictures he looks at the camera with his left eye, which means the right eye is the glass eye. To see Kennedy's head explode Decker would have had to turn all the way around and not just glance over his shoulder. To see the spray from Kennedy's head it would be much more plausible for Decker to have already been facing backward.
Another curious point is Forrest Sorrels. The more I read the more I see his name mentioned. According to record he sat in the right rear seat of the lead car. He testified he went around with Zapruder to try to get the film developed, Marie Oswald talks about her interactions with Forrest, Abraham Boulden states Sorrels sent him on a wild goose chase to chase done a man that was never mentioned agaoin. Orville Nix tells Mark Lane in an interview that he is a good friend of Forrest Sorrels. I just find Sorrels an engima.
Regarding Charles' edict to the members of this forum not to engage me in debate. I feel sorry for adults who obey such an edict. I don't like coming on this forum because I've been emotionally hurt in the past, but my curiosity of what people thought of Morningstar's theory overcame my personal feelings. I can already think of subject that will probably bring me to write again so I'll probably again get crap. But as a good friend of mine once said, "Life's a bitch".

[Greg Burnham]

They'll be coming out of the woodwork as the 50th approaches.

Robert Morningstar is one of my close friends. He has done a lot of great work. I do not agree with all of his conclusions, but his research and analytical ability
is top shelf. I worked with him extensively on his Tippit/Badgman/Body Swap hypothesis. I found that there was insufficient evidence to support the conclusions
that he finally reached. However, that was not because of dispositive evidence, rather it was due to lack of sufficient supporting evidence. Two different things
entirely.

You appear to be cherry picking from the work of some great researchers. You compliment them on portions of their work (pass judgment on it as true) then reject
the elements that will not fit in with your own theory. Yet, you have offered no rationale behind your rejection of those elements. It becomes increasingly clear
that the sole reason for your rejection of those elements is that they run counter to your preconceived notion, i.e., your theory. This is not research. This is creative,
if not selective, story telling.

[Phil Dragoo]

Having found a discussion on a JFK Facebook forum I followed its link to http://www.jfkresearch.com/morningstar/ and found the careful work of Robert Morningstar.


http://www.jfkresearch.com/morningstar/morningstar2.htm

PRELUDE TO THE ULTIMATE SECRET:
[B]THE JFK MEDICAL PARADOX[/B]

The Alternate Report On the Assassination of
President John F. Kennedy
by Robert D. Morningstar©

http://www.jfkresearch.com/morningstar/m...tar3-2.htm

THE ULTIMATE SECRET OF THE


JFK ASSASSINATION


Robert D. Morningstar ©

As with David Lifton and Harrison Livingstone who figure in his research, his work is a product of great care, and its value includes its ability to stimulate the cognitive and creative power, perception, imagination, deduction--

--how far above the level of the Jabba the O'Reilly is his work, based as it is on the simple yet dangerous acknowledgement that 1500 grams might have been left in Dealey Plaza but never registered on Humes' Bethesda scale.

Just so, his work ought not be taken lightly.

[Martin White]

I too have wondered about the body swap question but I am not convinced that the "copy" was Tippit.

It seems the most unlikely of all possible scenarios that the body reached Humes, Boswell & Finck in the state it left Parkland. The descriptions appear, to me, to be too different and the offical photos don't match Parkland either.

Critics of David Lifton suggest that it would be impossible to have spirited JFK's body away for secret alteration and return it to the morgue in time for the autopsy. It would certainly have been difficult, the way some portray it. However if we accept that the doctors at Parkland and Bethesda were looking at two different sets of wounds, then a different body might be a more pragmatic way of explaining the differences.

It appears incontrovertible that there were two caskets at Bethesda that evening, and two ambulances/hearses carrying them. Again, the easiest way to explain this is two bodies.

As with most areas of this case, I am not firmly committed, but on the balance of probabilities I think there was a bait-and-switch of some kind on the evening of 22nd November 1963.


Regards

Martin

[Phil Dragoo]

Martin, I have Doug Horne's five volumes and I recommend them. This excerpt of his online blog is fully developed in his Inside the Assassination Records Release Board:

BEGIN HORNE EXCERPT

The Three Casket Entries (Summarized):

(1) 6:35 PM/casket delivered was a cheap aluminum shipping casket/mode of delivery was a hearse (a black Cadillac mortuary-style ambulance). The hearse was offloaded by Navy Petty Officer Dennis David and his Navy working party of about 8 sailors, wearing Navy working uniforms (not dress uniforms). [Supporting evidence: David's recollections to a newspaper in 1975 and to David Lifton in 1979 and 1980; and the subsequent recollections of Donald Rebentisch (a member of his working party), circa 1981. The time of this casket entry (1835 hours, or 6:35 PM) was reported contemporaneously by USMC Sergeant Boyajian in his 11/26/63 typed after-action report; he authenticated a copy he sent to the ARRB staff in 1997.]

(2) 7:15-7:17 PM/casket delivered was a bronze, ceremonial viewing casket furnished by the Oneal Funeral Home at Parkland Hospital in Dallas. It was taken into the morgue anteroom by four Federal agents (using a wheeled conveyance, likely a "church truck"): FBI agents James Sibert and Frank O'Neill, and Secret Service Agents Roy Kellerman and William Greer. [Supporting evidence: HSCA staff interviews of Sibert and O'Neill from the late 1970s; ARRB depositions of Sibert and O'Neill taken in 1997; and an FBI internal memorandum from 1964 that helped to approximate the timing of this casket entry as about 7:17.]

(3) 8:00 PM/casket delivered was the same bronze, ceremonial viewing casket from Dallas that had entered earlier---with no one inside it (empty)---at 7:17 PM. It was taken into the morgue again at 8:00 PM (this time with JFK's body having first been reintroduced into the casket) by the Joint Service Casket Team, or "honor guard," composed of US Navy, US Army, US Air Force, and U.S. Coast Guard personnel wearing dress uniforms and white gloves. [Supporting evidence: the written report of the Military District of Washington provided the time of 2000 hours; and extensive interviews by authors David Lifton and William Manchester established the unique nature of this ceremonial second entry for the Dallas casket.]

END HORNE EXCERPT

http://insidethearrb.livejournal.com/

Blakey lied that the Bethesda personnel saw the Warren fiction while the Parkland doctors were mistaken. The CIA Bull-Shih-tzu to the contrary notwithstanding, the enlisted at Bethesda did not recognize the official photo depiction.

Certainly there had to be another donor for the second brain. (The second brain exam is established in Inside the ARRB.)

Possibly Tippit was rejected as too exceptional, having conversed with Helen Markham after his death.

[David Josephs]

Martin, I have Doug Horne's five volumes and I recommend them. This excerpt of his online blog is fully developed in his Inside the Assassination Records Release Board:

BEGIN HORNE EXCERPT

The Three Casket Entries (Summarized):

(1) 6:35 PM/casket delivered was a cheap aluminum shipping casket/mode of delivery was a hearse (a black Cadillac mortuary-style ambulance). The hearse was offloaded by Navy Petty Officer Dennis David and his Navy working party of about 8 sailors, wearing Navy working uniforms (not dress uniforms). [Supporting evidence: David's recollections to a newspaper in 1975 and to David Lifton in 1979 and 1980; and the subsequent recollections of Donald Rebentisch (a member of his working party), circa 1981. The time of this casket entry (1835 hours, or 6:35 PM) was reported contemporaneously by USMC Sergeant Boyajian in his 11/26/63 typed after-action report; he authenticated a copy he sent to the ARRB staff in 1997.]

(2) 7:15-7:17 PM/casket delivered was a bronze, ceremonial viewing casket furnished by the Oneal Funeral Home at Parkland Hospital in Dallas. It was taken into the morgue anteroom by four Federal agents (using a wheeled conveyance, likely a "church truck"): FBI agents James Sibert and Frank O'Neill, and Secret Service Agents Roy Kellerman and William Greer. [Supporting evidence: HSCA staff interviews of Sibert and O'Neill from the late 1970s; ARRB depositions of Sibert and O'Neill taken in 1997; and an FBI internal memorandum from 1964 that helped to approximate the timing of this casket entry as about 7:17.]

(3) 8:00 PM/casket delivered was the same bronze, ceremonial viewing casket from Dallas that had entered earlier---with no one inside it (empty)---at 7:17 PM. It was taken into the morgue again at 8:00 PM (this time with JFK's body having first been reintroduced into the casket) by the Joint Service Casket Team, or "honor guard," composed of US Navy, US Army, US Air Force, and U.S. Coast Guard personnel wearing dress uniforms and white gloves. [Supporting evidence: the written report of the Military District of Washington provided the time of 2000 hours; and extensive interviews by authors David Lifton and William Manchester established the unique nature of this ceremonial second entry for the Dallas casket.]

END HORNE EXCERPT

http://insidethearrb.livejournal.com/

Blakey lied that the Bethesda personnel saw the Warren fiction while the Parkland doctors were mistaken. The CIA Bull-Shih-tzu to the contrary notwithstanding, the enlisted at Bethesda did not recognize the official photo depiction.

Certainly there had to be another donor for the second brain. (The second brain exam is established in Inside the ARRB.)

Possibly Tippit was rejected as too exceptional, having conversed with Helen Markham after his death.

From Tippit's autopsy, his brain only weighed 1350gms.... JFK's - with the right hemisphere gone - 1500gms.

There was no need to swap JFK for anyone... plus... Rose is doing an autopsy on Tippit at Parkland starting around 3pm (granted he's DOA at Methodist at 1:15, guess he was just left there until the craziness at Parkland subsided?)
All that was needed was to remove JFK from the large casket... between the swearing in and the delay in moving luggage to and from AF-2... I believe there was time. Whether anything was done to JFK in the airplane - IDK, since there seemed to be enough time at Bethesda (while others claim he was flown to Reed first)

IMO, the body in DC is JFK... the wounds in DC were created in DC prior to 8pm. S
ince there was CCTV going on at the time with a possible timestamp, and/or images of what Humes/Boswell did to his head.. Pitzer is suicided.

There are indeed two sets of many, many things in this case... just not two bodies, imo.
DJ

[Charles Drago]

There are indeed two sets of many, many things in this case... just not two bodies, imo.
DJ

David,

You are coming to grips with what some time ago I termed the "doppelganger gambit" in the JFK assassination conspiracy.

DPF offers many exchanges on the subject. Within the past 10 days I was contacted by a well-known author of deep politics-related phenomena and asked for details on my doubles-related studies.

The use of doubles to confuse, confound, and/or control long predates the events of 11/22/63.

Ask Janus.

[Phil Dragoo]

I don't for a second suggest the brain of the closed casket officer slain by two men with two weapons was a prop in any alleged JFK brain exam

Only that the open casket allegation in re Tippit is demonstrably false

Concur with the logistical possibility of movement between the wink and the unseen chopper--viz. the Clifton chatter re chopper at right front for some plausibly deniable pretext

Craig Roberts put a two-page spread of aircraft drawings of the 26000 type in Kill Zone though a dramatic video purports to disprove this

If McHugh says he was with the casket the whole of the time why then that settles it

Just as he was (typically) between the limo's front-seat agents--just not that day

But witnesses had a very high bar

DeMohrenschildt had an unscheduled interview between Epstein and Fonzi

Pitzer was made a post-resignation offer he couldn't refuse

Robert Leon Yates had something very inconvenient to say about dopplegangers

FBI made sure he was given a Stalinesque commitment with shock treatments

As many as novels by Hunt for Red November (42)