Money Order timeline - the Evidence says the Money Order found in both KC and VA ??

[David Josephs]

I am trying to finish a piece on the Rifle and Pistol for CTKA yet the Money Order investigation has taken me into an area I had never known about before...

By placing the known info regarding the search for the Money Order on a timeline from a handful of sources... I come to find that there is evidence for it being found in both Kansas City AND Alexandria, VA....

Below is an overlay of WCD87 p89 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html...9&tab=page and CE1799.

I'm in the process of unraveling the report conflicts now... Suffice to say, with the understanding that the Evidence IS the Conspiracy, the "creation" of this Money order at the Postal Records Center in Alexandria

It appears as if SSSA Griffiths in CHICAGO, while talking to SSSA Stewart in DALLAS at 7:55pm 11/23, tells him that SSSA Kroz in KANSAS CITY is trying to ascertain the statusof the PMO in KC. During the conversation with Stewart in DALLAS, Griffiths in CHICAGO learns that the PMO has been recovered by Postal Inspectors.

"During the course of the conversation with Stewart(Dallas), Griffiths(Chicago) was told that the PMO has been recovered by Postal Inspectors" - is how the report reads. Whether he was told by Stewart is not clear since that would require Stewart in Dallas to learn about finding the PMO from DC? In the next paragraph, SSSA Kroz in KC is called and told that the PMO was "recovered" and forwarded to SS Asst Chief PATERNI in DC.

WCD87 p119 starts with PATERNI asking SSSA Geiglein (DC) at 8:30pm 11/23 to LOCATE AND OBTAIN "PMO 2,202,130,462 dated March 12, 1963, for $21.45 payable to Klein's by Alek James Hidell". and that if the original IS NOT AVAILABLE, that photostats be obtained.

Except according to the Chicago SS (WCD87 p94) report of Tucker (Chicago) and Griffiths, PATERNI has the PMO on its way to his office by 7:55pm.

What follows this request is Geiglein calling Postal Inspector Josephs Verant in DC, giving Verant the PMO detailed info... (which I have to say out loud looks as if that info is all that's needed to create a PMO)
Amazingly, on the SATURDAY AFTERNOON, Verant is able to contact a Post Office Dept staff Finance Officer who in turn opens the door to a new set of people including Donald Duggin, Deputy Chief Postal Insp Service in DC, who this Finance officer claims contacted him about an hour earlier about the same subject.

I'd rather not give away the entire process and allow the essay to provide context. The timeline will be included in the essay... Suffice to say, it certainly appears to me as if the person who ultimately provides the PMO to the Secret Service created it that evening based on the info provided by PATERNI.

I hope to be including the Pistol Evidence Analysis along with this in the same essay..

DJ

[Jim DiEugenio]

Really neat David.

So while one was begin prepped, one was being sent in?

You should use this to pepper DVP over at Spartacus.

Start a thread called, "Did Oswald Order the Rifle: Heck No"

Isn't it incredible how Allen Dulles helped supply the evidence that undermined his own case?

Remember his quote: Go ahead and print the stuff, nobody reads anymore.

Well, 52 years later, we are still fishing stuff out that those guys concealed.


Oswald never ordered that rifle, Oswald never picked up that rifle, and Oswald never fired that rifle​


And by the way, its the wrong rifle anyway!

[Jim DiEugenio]

Let us start backwards.

The official story says that Oswald picked up the rifle on. . . . . .

Well, that is one problem. There is no date ever given as to when Oswald picked up the rifle.

Read the WR, pages 118-22. You will find nothing in that regard.

So this leads to a question? How often did postal workers deliver 3-5 foot long rifle boxes from Klein's to people who rented boxes? Did it happen every day? Unlikely. Every week, I doubt it. Maybe every other week? Once a month? I would lean toward the last.

Then why did no postal worker recall the transaction on 11/22/63 when Oswald's name flashed on the TV screen that evening?

What makes this even more puzzling is this: There were FBI informants infiltrated throughout the Dallas post office to inform on suspected communists who were getting leftist literature in their boxes. (Reclaiming Parkland, p. 62)

Duh, what about a rifle from one of the largest arms dealers in America? Would not that be a suspicious mail order item for a commie like Oswald?

[David Josephs]

We are told via this SS report that at 1:00pm 11/23 a Klein's employee had been talking to POSTAL INSPECTORS at Klein's, prior to the SS contacting him and after the FBI leaves.

This results from the claim that the STUB for the PMO was found in Dallas between 10am and 1pm.

The first mention of Kansas City is not until 7:30 pm 11/23 when Postal Invesigator KNIGHT (Chicago) tells SSSA Griffiths (Chicago) that the PMO would have been sent to KC and that Postal Employees were already looking.

CE1799 is a recap of how the Postal Services helped the FBI/SS - there is no mention of any activity in Kansas City, MO.

The story of the acquisition of this PMO at the Records Center in VA, on a Saturday between 8:30 and 9:35pm, by a Finance Officer and Management Analyst culminating
with the handing over of this "original" at 10:10pm 11/23 to a SSSA Agent is one of the strangest I've come across.

If a Postal Records employees, Postal Inspectors, Holmes, et al had this info:

PMO 2,202,130,462 dated March 12, 1963, for $21.45 payable to Klein's by Alek James Hidell

how hard would it be to create a PMO? We have never see the STUB that was claimed found... have we?

[David Josephs]

Let us start backwards.

The official story says that Oswald picked up the rifle on. . . . . .

Well, that is one problem. There is no date ever given as to when Oswald picked up the rifle.

Read the WR, pages 118-22. You will find nothing in that regard.

So this leads to a question? How often did postal workers deliver 3-5 foot long rifle boxes from Klein's to people who rented boxes? Did it happen every day? Unlikely. Every week, I doubt it. Maybe every other week? Once a month? I would lean toward the last.

Then why did no postal worker recall the transaction on 11/22/63 when Oswald's name flashed on the TV screen that evening?

What makes this even more puzzling is this: There were FBI informants infiltrated throughout the Dallas post office to inform on suspected communists who were getting leftist literature in their boxes. (Reclaiming Parkland, p. 62)

Duh, what about a rifle from one of the largest arms dealers in America? Would not that be a suspicious mail order item for a commie like Oswald?

Did the Dodd investigation include contacting the largest Post Offices?

Can we assume that if anyone did say something about it arriving it would be the wrong day, time, and/or person who got it... or they remembered the supervisor putting rifles aside but since it was a Dodd related gun shop it was understood to be ok...

Or finally, no rifle was ever shipped - so no one would have a memory of such occurring.

But Jim, we have to agree that "not remembering" is not the same as proof he never got it. I believe there is a significant amount of proof the rifle was not in his possession during this time...

With two small suitcases leaving New Orleans... he did not transport a rifle from New Orleans to Irving.

Since it was never in the Paine garage, it was not taken to the TSBD on the morning of 11/22... but was probably brought by the man YATES dropped off a couple days before... IN MY OPINION>>>

[Jim DiEugenio]

Again, working backwards:

The official story says that Oswald picked up the rifle at his PO box on an unknown date.

Except, this would have been highly improbable.

Why?

Because the rifle was not ordered in Oswald's name. The official story has the rifle ordered under the alias Hidell.

This created an enormous problem for the WC.

See, there was a postal regulation that said mail could not be delivered to a PO box unless the mail matched the box holder's name.

Therefore, under this regulation, the rifle should have been returned to Klein's marked "addessee unknown".

How does the WR dodge this one? Through lies and alteration of evidence.

Harry Holmes, an FBI informant, was called by the WC to say the regulation only applied to mail and not merchandise. The problem was he showed up with no regulation book or regulation citation in his hands to prove this was so. (Reclaiming Parkland, p. 61) If it was so, would he not have cited such a source, and would not the Commission have brought in like say the Postmaster General to testify to this exception? But the FBI , who coordinated the witness agendas and supplied background info on them, knew they could trust Holmes. And boy did Harry lie his head off for them.

He also said that Oswald probably allowed for someone else to pick up mail for him. That would have been marked down in Part 3 of the box application form. The only problem with Harry saying that was this: there was no part 3 available. So Harry told another lie. He said that that it was SOP to dispose of those applications once the box expired.

How bad was the WC? This bad. Young Stewart Galanor wrote a letter to the post office HQ in Washington in 1966. A man named Ralph Rea wrote back and said that in all post office branches in 1963 no one should get mail not addressed to him; and that the mail application in all parts should be retained for two years after the box was closed. Further, that delivery receipts for firearms and statements by shippers of firearms should be held for four years. (See Galanor, Cover Up, Documents 37-38)

Just how bad of a perjurer was Holmes? And just how bad was the FBI?

Regarding the latter, the FBI knew that the box application did not include permission for anyone else to get mail from Oswald's box in Dallas. (Reclaiming Parkland,p. 61) Concerning the former, after his death, Holmes' family contacted JFK Lancer Group. They apologized for what he did and tried to chalk it up to the pressures of the Cold War. (ibid)

[David Josephs]

Again, working backwards:

The official story says that Oswald picked up the rifle at his PO box on an unknown date.

Except, this would have been highly improbable.

Why?

Because the rifle was not ordered in Oswald's name. The official story has the rifle ordered under the alias Hidell.

This created an enormous problem for the WC.

See, there was a postal regulation that said mail could not be delivered to a PO box unless the mail matched the box holder's name.

Therefore, under this regulation, the rifle should have been returned to Klein's marked "addessee unknown".

How does the WR dodge this one? Through lies and alteration of evidence.

Harry Holmes, an FBI informant, was called by the WC to say the regulation only applied to mail and not merchandise. The problem was he showed up with no regulation book or regulation citation in his hands to prove this was so. (Reclaiming Parkland, p. 61) If it was so, would he not have cited such a source, and would not the Commission have brought in like say the Postmaster General to testify to this exception? But the FBI , who coordinated the witness agendas and supplied background info on them, knew they could trust Holmes. And boy did Harry lie his head off for them.

He also said that Oswald probably allowed for someone else to pick up mail for him. That would have been marked down in Part 3 of the box application form. TH sonly problem with Harry saying that was this: there was no part 3 available. So Harry told another lie. He said that that it was SOP to dispose of those applications once the box expired.

How bad was the WC? This bad. Young Stewart Galanor wrote alter to the post office HQ in Washington in 1966. A man named Ralph Rea wrote back and said that in all post office branch sin 1963 no one should get mail now addressed to him, and that the mail application in all parts should be retained for two year after the box was closed. Further, that delivery receipts for firearms and statements by shippers of firearms should be held for four years. (See Galanor, Cover Up, Documents 37-38)

Just how bad of a perjurer was Holmes? And just how bad was the FBI?

Regarding the latter, the FBI knew that the box application did not include permission for anyone else to get mail from Oswald's box in Dallas. (Reclaiming Parkland,p. 61) Concerning the former, after his death, Holmes' family contacted JFK Lancer Group. They apologized for what he did and tried to chalk it up to the pressures of the Cold War. (ibid)

LOL... the Evidence IS the Conspiracy

In their zeal to connect Oswald to Hidell, all they needed to do was add Hidell's name to the PO Box application - those authorized to received mail...

With all the other fraud involved, why not do that simple thing?

Holmes may have been covering up for Dodd who in turn may have had the rifle ordered in Hidell's name to see if it would even be shipped to a PO Box, and what regs were being broken... with a backup reason to add incrimination of Oswald....

It's much easier to maintain the truth... it's the lies which get convoluted and remain hard to keep straight...

Good point Jim

[Jim DiEugenio]

Now, when Holmes testified to Wesley Liebeler, he lied and said that Oswald could have written down a name on the box form and that person could have picked up the rifle.

Here is my question: If we go by Mr. Ralp Rea, and not the lying Harry Holmes, would not Oswald have had to prove he was Hidell? In other words, since the box was not in Hidell's name, Oswald would have had to have shown he also went by Hidell, right?

And would not something like that have gone up to the immediate supervisor?

And you are going to say that no one in the post office remembered that either? Even when it was revealed in the news that Oswald used the alias Hidell in New Orleans and in Dallas to order the rifle?

And let us stay with this absurdity.

How did the FBI know about the Hidell alias?

Through Oswald!!

When Oswald was arrested in New Orleans, he called for the FBI to interview him. (Think about that one a minute. An arrested communist wants to be interviewed by the FBI.) Oswald wanted DeBrueys, but Quigley showed up. Quigley picked up a lot of the stuff confiscated by Martello from Oswald. One of these things was the FPCC card with the Hidell alias on it.

Now, recall, this is August. And Oswald understood what Quigley was doing since he spent over an hour with him. (What did they talk about, what life was like in the USSR?) So Oswald knew that the New Orleans FBI had this card. In other words, he knows that the alias will trace right back to him in FBI files! What he was too cheap to buy a different rifle to shoot Kennedy with?

Oswald had an IQ of about 112. He was not an idiot. But yet this is the kind of junk the WC wants us to buy.

[Jim DiEugenio]

Now, as we all know, Vince Bugliosi was all in for convicting Oswald with any and all evidence he could get. Including the most discredited stuff one can imagine. But he usually did a tap dance around problems with the evidence. As I showed for example with Kennedy's brain. Which, as Stringer said, is not his brain.

Well, he also is all in with the rifle. He writes a chapter on it in RH. He wants to use everything he can to try and show Oswald ordered it. And like other things that work against him, he actually says: So what if its the wrong rifle?

Well, Vince says that there were two Klein's magazine ads found at the Paine household, specifically in the garage. And he pretty much leaves it at that.

Smart move Vince. I never said Vince was dumb. Now let us list the reasons why he does not tell the whole story about this "discovery". Which Martha Moyer did tell in her fine article "Ordering the Rifle."

First of all, the DPD said they found this on the 23rd. Which is the day Holmes sent his secretary out to find ads for Klein's in magazines. He said he found two, American Rifleman and Field and Stream. Which, no surprise is where the two ads the DPD say they found came from.

Except, what Vince does not say is that there were two differing stories as to where the ads are found. The one Vince uses says that the ads were found in a small box in Ruth's garage marked "miscellaneous photos and maps". Hmm. The ads were neither maps nor pictures. They were literally ads.

Why does Vince use this source? Because as Martha notes, the other one is even worse. This source says--please sit down before you read this--I warned you.

The ads were found on the bedside table in Marina's bedroom!

Yep, Oswald kept those ads about 8 months. He then transported them from apartment to apartment to apartment to apartment, even to New Orleans and back. He then left them at the Paine garage, but took them out the night before he shot Kennedy. He then was looking at them in bed while watching TV with Marina. He fell asleep, and on the day he was going to kill Kennedy, he forgot to pick them up and left them in plain sight. Right before he picked up the rifle he had ordered from them, and used to kill Kennedy!

Can you believe this stuff? Apparently Vince did. And so does his acolyte Von Pein. Any objective jury would be sitting there with mouths agape if any prosecutor tried to present this nuttiness to them. But there's more.

These cut out ads were not on the DPD inventory assembled for the FBI on the 26th. Nor according to Martha, are they on the original DPD inventory. And guess what, when Curry published his book in 1969, he used a different ad. From which he omitted credit, which he did not usually do. And when Gary Savage did his book, in the 90's, he used an ad from Guns and Ammo to show how Oswald ordered the rifle. Needless to say, Adrian Alba handed over about five magazines he said could have been used to the FBi on the 23rd. All three of the above plus two more.

In other words, the DPD, Holmes and the FBI were hunting down any and all magazine ads after the fact. And they got plenty of them. Only Vince would leave all that detail out. And only DVP would make like parakeet and mimic it without pointing out any of the problems with it.