On Edwin Kaiser and Related Topics

[Anthony Thorne]

Re the dementia article, Kinzer quotes 'an analyst' and 'an aide', but can't be bothered mentioning their names, or from which documents or books he sourced the info, which is always a great sign. At this rate he could have added further testimony from 'a friend of a friend' if he was really determined to sell the thesis.

The onset of dementia does offer a generous interpretation of the conclusions Dulles pushed on the Warren Commission though.

[Drew Phipps]

I'm guessing "dementia" was also the reason Dulles went to the bookstore (or the CIA copy shop) and purchased copies of a ten year old book that concluded that lone nuts were the most likely assassins, and then delivered a copy to each member of the Warren Commission at their first meeting on 12/16/63?

[Cliff Varnell]

Re the dementia article, Kinzer quotes 'an analyst' and 'an aide', but can't be bothered mentioning their names, or from which documents or books he sourced the info, which is always a great sign. At this rate he could have added further testimony from 'a friend of a friend' if he was really determined to sell the thesis.

The onset of dementia does offer a generous interpretation of the conclusions Dulles pushed on the Warren Commission though.

He directly quoted Adm Burke, William Bundy and Eleanor Elliot -- so it's not as if the thesis isn't supported.

I'd love to see a cogent explanation for Dulles ditching the BOP to spend crucial time in Puerto Rico.

[Scott Kaiser]

IF I may, I would like to add. In defense of stricken information from the record, I do believe I have demonstrated that leadership is a lonely place for the one baring its mantel.

If I have not presented a valued case then I would appreciate anyone to correct my findings which clearly proves I have not provided any documention or a government source. I did however provide testimonials from a half dozen journalist's. Would that count?*

[Cliff Varnell]

I'm guessing "dementia" was also the reason Dulles went to the bookstore (or the CIA copy shop) and purchased copies of a ten year old book that concluded that lone nuts were the most likely assassins, and then delivered a copy to each member of the Warren Commission at their first meeting on 12/16/63?

I find Allen Dulles' connection to the Paines thru Mary Bancroft awfully fishy.

Such an obvious connection!

Leads me to suspect there were two names on the back-up patsy list for the Agency -- E. Howard Hunt and Allen Dulles.

Hunt took the fall for Watergate; Dulles for the Bay of Pigs.

The patsy jacket is hard to shake...

[Jim DiEugenio]

I'm guessing "dementia" was also the reason Dulles went to the bookstore (or the CIA copy shop) and purchased copies of a ten year old book that concluded that lone nuts were the most likely assassins, and then delivered a copy to each member of the Warren Commission at their first meeting on 12/16/63?

1. LOL Drew.

You might have added, Dulles more or less ran the WC. Walt Brown came to hat conclusion after studying the volumes in detail. He was also very active behind the scenes i covering up certain aspects of both Oswald's life and the Baron's career. He then became a vociferous defender of the cover up he helped construct. He was pretty sharp and energetic in that debate with Lifton, although he lost on points since the facts were not on his side.

2. Varnell has heard all of this stuff about Zapata before. Because its been gone through at Spartacus. SO he comes over here and recycles the same old stuff he could not sell there.

Dulles always said he did not want to cancel that engagement in Puerto Rico, because it would draw attention to itself and give away a hint that something was coming.

But in reality, can you imagine what would have happened if Dulles had done what Varnell wanted him to? In other words, once the thing was a disaster he was supposed to go to the oval office and tell Kennedy he had to commit American forces.

Something like this would likely have ensued, because everyone near JFK said they had never seen him so upset before:

AD: Sir, the invasion is collapsing on every front. We must commit Burke's naval force.

JFK: What about the defections you promised me would come at a 25 per cent rate?

AD: They are not there. At all.

JFK: But what about the surprise element?

AD: It did not work. There was a police force on duty.

JFK: But you said there would not be a police force at Playa Giron.

AD: Well, we were wrong. Castro has launched a counter attack already.

JFK:But you said there would not be a counterattack until days later.

AD: Well, we were wrong.

JFK: What about going guerrilla?

AD: Its 85 miles through swamp to get to the mountains. And most of the men did not get guerrilla training.

JFK: What? You mean everything that i used to OK this mission was wrong!

AD: Yes. Now go ahead and send in the Marines since that is what I snookered you into!


Allen Dulles was too clever to do something like that. So he let others do it for him. If not JFK would have probably fired him right then and there.

3. Finally, as per Kinzer, boy is he lucky we did not review his book. Talbot warned me in advance about how bad it was on the Bay of Pigs, and the WC proceedings. He said as far as JFK and Dulles, it was a big Nothingburger. And it is.

Anyone who can take Burke seriously and Bill Bundy seriously on Dulles's mental condition in 1961-63 is not to be trusted. Burke was one of the guys who JFK eased out after Zapata, he later joined an anti Castro group organized by the Luces. Allen Dulles saved Bill Bundy's career from McCarthy, since he had been targeted by Tailrunner Joe as a commie. If Varnell would have read Talbot's much more credible and candid bio on Allen Dulles he might have learned that.

[Cliff Varnell]

Dulles always said he did not want to cancel that engagement in Puerto Rico, because it would draw attention to itself and give away a hint that something was coming.

Let's put aside for a moment DiEugenio's strange, unconditional belief in everything Dulles ever said about the Bay of Pigs, and check the historical record:

The Soviets, the anti-Castro Cubans, and the New York Times knew "something was coming."

The Soviets knew the exact date for D-Day, and the CIA knew they knew -- which destroys DiEugenio's faith in the above rationale for Dulles ditching the operation.

Even though Dulles knew the operation was an open secret he took himself out of the chain of command and beat it down to Puerto Rico in order to ensure a secrecy that didn't exist?

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2000-04...ell-taylor

<quote on>

CIA Knew Russians Were Tipped Off To Bay Of Pigs
April 29, 2000|By VERNON LOEB The Washington Post

WASHINGTON Shortly after the failed Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba in 1961, a top CIA official told an investigative commission that the Soviet Union had somehow learned the exact date of the amphibious landing in advance, according to a newly declassified version of the commission's final report.

Moreover, the CIA apparently had known of the leak to the Soviets -- and went ahead with the invasion anyway.

In an effort to oust Fidel Castro, the CIA organized and trained a force of about 1,400 Cuban exiles and launched the invasion on April 17, 1961. Castro's soldiers easily repelled the landing force in less than 72 hours, killing 200 rebels and capturing 1,197 others in what became one of the worst foreign policy blunders of the Cold War.

The investigative commission, chaired by Gen. Maxwell Taylor, was established almost immediately and held a series of secret hearings at the Pentagon before sending a sharply critical report to President Kennedy in June 1961.

While portions of the Taylor Commission's report were made public on two previous occasions, in 1977 and 1986, many pages had been blacked out for security reasons by the CIA.

The National Archives released the document late Wednesday to the nonprofit National Security Archive, where senior analyst Peter Kornbluh has been working for years to prod the government to release all classified documents on the Bay of Pigs.

Kornbluh began demanding the full version of the Taylor Commission report in December after determining that the document, cleared for release by the CIA in 1996, had been lost by Pentagon officials.

Documents found in Soviet archives previously indicated that the Russians had learned some details of the operation in advance, but the Taylor Commission report shows for the first time that the CIA knew about the leak and proceeded with the invasion nevertheless.



The revelation came in testimony before the Taylor Commission -- blacked out in previous releases of the report -- by Jacob D. Esterline, the CIA operations official who headed the task force responsible for coordinating the invasion.

"There was some indication that the Soviets somewhere around the 9th [of April] had gotten the date of the 17th," Esterline testified. "But there was no indication at any time that they had any idea where the operation was going to take place."

How the leak occurred is still a mystery.

In extremely candid testimony, Esterline called Tony Varona, one of two Cuban exile leaders working closely with the agency, "an ignoramus of the worst sort" who had "no conception whatsoever of security."

Referring to Varona and his cohorts, Esterline complained, "I've never encountered a group of people that were so incapable of keeping a secret."

For this reason, he explained, CIA planners told none of the Cuban participants when the invasion would actually take place until a briefing on April 12. Since the Soviets had by then already obtained the date, either through a source or a communication intercept, "we were able to isolate the fact that the leak could not have been Cuban," Esterline said.
Kornbluh said there is no indication that Esterline or anyone else at the CIA warned President Kennedy of the leak before the invasion took place.

The newly declassified report also shows that CIA Director Allen W. Dulles expressed doubt just three weeks after the invasion about whether the CIA should have any further involvement in paramilitary operations.

<quote off>

I'll spare the gentle reader the full "ether of his imagination" and boil down DiEugenio's Vulcan Mind Meld with Allen Dulles to the following:

AD: Yes. Now go ahead and send in the Marines since that is what I snookered you into!

It wasn't just the CIA who snookered Kennedy -- Dean Rusk advised Kennedy to approve the operation even though he knew the morning of D-Day-1 that it was doomed.

Kennedy took ultimate responsibility for a good reason -- he knew a month ahead of D-Day the prospect for success was 50/50 and he went ahead anyway.

3. Finally, as per Kinzer, boy is he lucky we did not review his book. Talbot warned me in advance about how bad it was on the Bay of Pigs, and the WC proceedings. He said as far as JFK and Dulles, it was a big Nothingburger. And it is.

Of course you're going to say that, Jim, his take on Dulles destroys your Pet Theories.

Anyone who can take Burke seriously and Bill Bundy seriously on Dulles's mental condition in 1961-63 is not to be trusted.

Anyone who swallows whole everything Allen Dulles said about the Bay of Pigs is not to be trusted.

[Scott Kaiser]

Now I'm really confused, Jim says Dulles and or orhers were out to force Kennedy into using American military, Kennedy said, "no American military would be used" however, Kennedy admitted he approved 8 planes for "air cover" but those 8 were increased to 12. Now, weren't those planes Navy? Isn't that already using American military? Common folks... Wouldnt you say American military was used jim?

[Jim DiEugenio]

Varnell does not even know the history of Zapata.

Kennedy took a vote of his central advisors on the project, every single one of them endorsed the project. This is detailed in McNamara's book, In Retrospect.

Repeat; every one of them.

It was only afterwards that some, to save their own credibility, began to say to the press that they actually thought different.

This is why Kennedy then installed a taping system in the White House. So now his advisors could not turn on him after the fact.

I really don't know what the heck Varnell is talking about when he says I take Dulles at his word on this or anything else. That is just complete and utter nonsense on his part. I just proved, through that imaginary conversation, that Dulles lied his head off to JFK about this. And I left out the fact that Dulles told JFK that he felt this operation was actually better planned and had more probability of success than the Arbenz operation.

And yes Cliff, we all knew the CIA knew that Castro understood that the attack was coming. I have said repeatedly he was on high alert because of that. That is why the police force was awake in Playa Giron. So here is another one of your "destroyers" that turns into a sinking tugboat.

Cliff, if you think Dulles did not know what he was doing from 1961-64, then you had better hit the books or read Talbot. To use just two examples, Dulles was arranging the assassination of Lumumba, before JFK was inaugurated,

BECAUSE HE KNEW KENNEDY WOULD FAVOR LUMUMBA AFTER HE BECAME PRESIDENT!


You did know that right Cliff? You did read Kwitny's Endless Enemies? The Devil's Chessboard? The Congo Cables?

Oh no, you only read Kinzer's short piece. God you are careful aren't you?

Alright, then what about Dulles arranging the backing of the CIA for the revolt of the French OAS to overthrow DeGaulle? Was Dulles senile while he was arranging to have DeGaulle toppled? Did you check Kinzer on this one? Because Talbot has it solidly backed with primary sources in his book.

Oh, you only read Kinzer's short piece. You are careful aren't you?

Anyone who can read the Warren Commission volumes, and see how Dulles is in on Perry reversing his testimony of a frontal shot, on Humes lying his head off about the position of Kennedy's head at Z 313, on weakening Baker's testimony about Oswald being in the same room with him as he wrote his affidavit that does not mention Oswald at all! Any author who reads that stuff and says Dulles was losing it--at the very same time that Dulles is actively arranging for Oswald to be framed, must work for the NY Times.

I mean you did know that, right Cliff?

[Jim DiEugenio]

Scott:

This will be the last time I say this.

Kennedy approved the pre D Day strikes.

The D Day strike was to be launched from the island. See, that is why they had aviation fuel when the attack landed. But since there was no beachhead, there was no D Day strike.

As the attack collapsed, Kennedy OK'd a rolling air cover in order to rescue as many survivors as they could.

What Cabell, Nixon and Burke wanted was to unleash an American amphibious attack on Cuba.

I don't know how to make it any more simple than that.