Prouty on Lansdale

[Bernice Moore]

http://www.prouty.org/letter.html col. fletcher prouty on lansdale

[Jim DiEugenio]

Prouty is always interesting, even when he is wrong, as I believe he is here about the three tramps.

But his insights into how covert operations are conducted, and his knowledge about how things in the White House went down, are very valuable. Who else would talk about how the McNamara Taylor report was actually composed?

When I first saw Stone's film, I didn't really like the shift to Washington from New Orleans. But the more I see it, the more I think it is a high point of the film. Sutherland really nailed the part, and the stuff he says gives the audience insight into how power really works in America. Brando was Stone's first choice for that part.

(BTW, let me add, as good as Sutherland is in that scene, Costner is as bad. He was so bad that Sutherand made fun of him between takes when he was out of earshot.)

Those scenes are based on these letters--there was more than one. One can question the dramatic license used here since they did not occur until well after their depiction in the film. If it would have been me, I may not have used them. But the fact that they work on screen is pretty demonstrable by how many people have watched the clip on You Tube.

[Lauren Johnson]

This mission was not in Saigon. It was not military, and its job was subversion in Vietnam. Its biggest job was that it got more than 1,100,000 northern Vietnamese to move south. 660,000 by U.S.Navy ships and the rest by CIA airline planes. These 1,100,000 north Vietnamese became the "subversive" element in South Vietnam and the principal cause of the warmaking.

This seems really absurd. How could Lansdale convince a million NV to go south to become the core of the VC. Am I misreading this?

[Jim DiEugenio]

Its true.

I know a guy who did a research paper on this subject. And I think Prouty discusses it at length in his book , JFK. It was a massive psy op war conducted by Lansdale spreading the word that the communists were going to mass execute the Catholics in North Vietnam.

So they fled the north and helped boost Diem in the south who was also Catholic.

This was also used by propagandists for the war like Bill Buckley, who used to say that see, the refugees all move south.

[Lauren Johnson]

Its true.

I know a guy who did a research paper on this subject. And I think Prouty discusses it at length in his book , JFK. It was a massive psy op war conducted by Lansdale spreading the word that the communists were going to mass execute the Catholics in North Vietnam.

So they fled the north and helped boost Diem in the south who was also Catholic.

This was also used by propagandists for the war like Bill Buckley, who used to say that see, the refugees all move south.

Jesus H. Christ. Once again the rabbit hole gets deeper. Or to use another image, my toilet bowl runneth over. :fullofit:

[Albert Doyle]

Anthony Frank on Lancer sees a more sinister intention to the exodus. He thinks the CIA cabal plotting against JFK and taking over in VietNam brought over a million bodies to South VietNam in order to cause strife between those who had to make room for them and the newcomers. That way many of them would join the Viet Cong (nationalist) insurgents and increase the number of incidents that then justified the American intervention. Deliberate destabilization, in other words, that was then pinned on the communists.

[Greg Burnham]

This mission was not in Saigon. It was not military, and its job was subversion in Vietnam. Its biggest job was that it got more than 1,100,000 northern Vietnamese to move south. 660,000 by U.S.Navy ships and the rest by CIA airline planes. These 1,100,000 north Vietnamese became the "subversive" element in South Vietnam and the principal cause of the warmaking.

This seems really absurd. How could Lansdale convince a million NV to go south to become the core of the VC. Am I misreading this?

The Viet Cong were actually SOUTH Vietnamese natives who had been displaced by the 1.1 million Northern Tonkinese Catholics that had been trans-migrated to the South by the CIA. The Northerners were promised land, farms, homes and other perks for making the trip...plus the assurance that they would be able to practice their religion without persecution from the communists. The Northern "refugees" supported Diem, a fellow Catholic, and oppressed non-Catholics (especially Buddhists) upon their arrival in the south. They then began to take over the area in which they settled creating "refugees in their own land" by the hundreds of thousands of Southern Vietnamese who were put out--broke and homeless. That's how the Viet Cong were created. The Cong were NOT North Vietnamese--they were South Vietnamese; they were NOT communists nor were they communist sympathizers. They were disenfranchised natives that were willing to take assistance from whomever offered it in order to attempt to regain their lost property, homes, and lives.

[Bernice Moore]

This mission was not in Saigon. It was not military, and its job was subversion in Vietnam. Its biggest job was that it got more than 1,100,000 northern Vietnamese to move south. 660,000 by U.S.Navy ships and the rest by CIA airline planes. These 1,100,000 north Vietnamese became the "subversive" element in South Vietnam and the principal cause of the warmaking.

This seems really absurd. How could Lansdale convince a million NV to go south to become the core of the VC. Am I misreading this?

The Viet Cong were actually SOUTH Vietnamese natives who had been displaced by the 1.1 million Northern Tonkinese Catholics that had been trans-migrated to the South by the CIA. The Northerners were promised land, farms, homes and other perks for making the trip...plus the assurance that they would be able to practice their religion without persecution from the communists. The Northern "refugees" supported Diem, a fellow Catholic, and oppressed non-Catholics (especially Buddhists) upon their arrival in the south. They then began to take over the area in which they settled creating "refugees in their own land" by the hundreds of thousands of Southern Vietnamese who were put out--broke and homeless. That's how the Viet Cong were created. The Cong were NOT North Vietnamese--they were South Vietnamese; they were NOT communists nor were they communist sympathizers. They were disenfranchised natives that were willing to take assistance from whomever offered it in order to attempt to regain their lost property, homes, and lives.

thanks greg; and all, i always enjoy a thread which begins with any of Col Prouty's information, there is always new that eventually reveals itself and i as well as others learn continuously. again thanks, and so pleased to see you here greg...best b

[Dawn Meredith]

Prouty is always interesting, even when he is wrong, as I believe he is here about the three tramps.

But his insights into how covert operations are conducted, and his knowledge about how things in the White House went down, are very valuable. Who else would talk about how the McNamara Taylor report was actually composed?

When I first saw Stone's film, I didn't really like the shift to Washington from New Orleans. But the more I see it, the more I think it is a high point of the film. Sutherland really nailed the part, and the stuff he says gives the audience insight into how power really works in America. Brando was Stone's first choice for that part.

(BTW, let me add, as good as Sutherland is in that scene, Costner is as bad. He was so bad that Sutherand made fun of him between takes when he was out of earshot.)

Those scenes are based on these letters--there was more than one. One can question the dramatic license used here since they did not occur until well after their depiction in the film. If it would have been me, I may not have used them. But the fact that they work on screen is pretty demonstrable by how many people have watched the clip on You Tube.

Jim:
Do you believe Prouty is wrong in his id of Lansdale? Or that he believed the three "were actors" and therefore not important?

I have always found his reasoning re. Lansdale very persuasive. People who argue that you cannot recognize someone from behind are wrong in my opinion. It depends on how well you know the person, what -if anything- is distinctive about the person. When you see Prouty's reasoning along with the photo of that person I find it very credible an explanation.

Dawn

[Greg Burnham]

This mission was not in Saigon. It was not military, and its job was subversion in Vietnam. Its biggest job was that it got more than 1,100,000 northern Vietnamese to move south. 660,000 by U.S.Navy ships and the rest by CIA airline planes. These 1,100,000 north Vietnamese became the "subversive" element in South Vietnam and the principal cause of the warmaking.

This seems really absurd. How could Lansdale convince a million NV to go south to become the core of the VC. Am I misreading this?

The Viet Cong were actually SOUTH Vietnamese natives who had been displaced by the 1.1 million Northern Tonkinese Catholics that had been trans-migrated to the South by the CIA. The Northerners were promised land, farms, homes and other perks for making the trip...plus the assurance that they would be able to practice their religion without persecution from the communists. The Northern "refugees" supported Diem, a fellow Catholic, and oppressed non-Catholics (especially Buddhists) upon their arrival in the south. They then began to take over the area in which they settled creating "refugees in their own land" by the hundreds of thousands of Southern Vietnamese who were put out--broke and homeless. That's how the Viet Cong were created. The Cong were NOT North Vietnamese--they were South Vietnamese; they were NOT communists nor were they communist sympathizers. They were disenfranchised natives that were willing to take assistance from whomever offered it in order to attempt to regain their lost property, homes, and lives.

thanks greg; and all, i always enjoy a thread which begins with any of Col Prouty's information, there is always new that eventually reveals itself and i as well as others learn continuously. again thanks, and so pleased to see you here greg...best b

Thank you for that, Beans. It's good to be here. I'm sure you noted (?) that the archives of JFKresearch.com is now hosted here: JFKresearch Assassination Forum Archive