Don't Worry, The US Prisons Are In Good Hands....ha, ha, ha, ha!

[James Lewis]

Magda...thank you very much. The last paragraph you cite pretty much sums things up neatly. Two totally different ways of looking at crime and punishment.

[Seamus Coogan]

I have to say mate your posts on whatever topic I choose to name are excellent. And Magda and Jan have some good insights here in NZ we are piss poor. The Finnish Model would be brilliant!

In the US are there any Native American run institutions? I heard a whisper very interesting! We're trying to do that in NZ with Maori running prisons but I'm extremely skeptical. I think it's an incentive for affluent Maori to exploit their own base of people.

[James Lewis]

Not yet, Seamus, but give it time. It depends on who's making money and how much there is to be made.

[Peter Lemkin]

Finland is civilized. The USA is not. When you are caught parking illegally in Finland, the fine is sent to your home via mail or electronically and is based upon a % of your income...billionaires [there aren't any, but....] would pay a fortune; a poor person almost nothing....but an equal share of what they have - equal pain and penalty. Finland and the other Scandinavian countries are based more on compassion and forgiveness - helping someone to live a better life. USA on retribution and sadism - with a religious overtone - and help is for those who don't need it....if you DESPERATELY need it, it is not available!.....from a bank loan to welfare to housing to job to medical care et al. A moral and normal person's wasteland. A military, intelligence, prison, corporate gardenspot. :what:

[Seamus Coogan]

Finland is civilized. The USA is not. When you are caught parking illegally in Finland, the fine is sent to your home via mail or electronically and is based upon a % of your income...billionaires [there aren't any, but....] would pay a fortune; a poor person almost nothing....but an equal share of what they have - equal pain and penalty. Finland and the other Scandinavian countries are based more on compassion and forgiveness - helping someone to live a better life. USA on retribution and sadism - with a religious overtone - and help is for those who don't need it....if you need it, it is not available!.....from a bank loan to welfare or medical care.

New Zealand inspired a lot of the stuff they have in Scandanavia nowadays and we decided in the mid 80's to go the US route and bingo.

[Jan Klimkowski]

Jan, a big part of the problem that I forgot to mention is what I refer to as the dreaded "uniform disease". It happens when people who aren't used to having power over other people are suddenly granted a uniform and turn into God...or something like that. I partially attribute the spread of this disease to the TV show "Oz", wherby many new officers come into the system thinking that that's what prisons are really like. And then when it isn't, they tend to try to make it that way, usually resulting in unnecessary uses of force and the eventual loss of their jobs.

And lest I forget, the disease tends to make some of the weaker-minded people who get it show a total lack of respect for anyone, especially an offender, who doesn't wear that exact same uniform, and even some who do. What they tend to forget is: There but for the grace of God go I, especially in this society.

James - very important point.

It is in large part the uniform. But it's also what the uniform represents: namely power.

There was an investigative documentary shown on BBC1 here a week or so ago where a young reporter went undercover at a care home for young adults with learning disabilities or forms of autism.

The documentary revealed a culture of staff with low esteem placed in a position where there were effectively no boundaries, no sanctions for misbehaviour, and no management oversight. As a result, these staff boosted their self esteem by bullying and abusing these most vulnerable of adults.

It was disgusting. But I have little doubt that such abuse is widespread - particualarly in private for profit care homes like the one featured in the programme.

And it is simply another manifestation of what you termed "uniform disease".

[Seamus Coogan]

Jan, a big part of the problem that I forgot to mention is what I refer to as the dreaded "uniform disease". It happens when people who aren't used to having power over other people are suddenly granted a uniform and turn into God...or something like that. I partially attribute the spread of this disease to the TV show "Oz", wherby many new officers come into the system thinking that that's what prisons are really like. And then when it isn't, they tend to try to make it that way, usually resulting in unnecessary uses of force and the eventual loss of their jobs.

And lest I forget, the disease tends to make some of the weaker-minded people who get it show a total lack of respect for anyone, especially an offender, who doesn't wear that exact same uniform, and even some who do. What they tend to forget is: There but for the grace of God go I, especially in this society.

James - very important point.

It is in large part the uniform. But it's also what the uniform represents: namely power.

There was an investigative documentary shown on BBC1 here a week or so ago where a young reporter went undercover at a care home for young adults with learning disabilities or forms of autism.

The documentary revealed a culture of staff with low esteem placed in a position where there were effectively no boundaries, no sanctions for misbehaviour, and no management oversight. As a result, these staff boosted their self esteem by bullying and abusing these most vulnerable of adults.

It was disgusting. But I have little doubt that such abuse is widespread - particualarly in private for profit care homes like the one featured in the programme.

And it is simply another manifestation of what you termed "uniform disease".

Yeah man cheers Jan. Over here its a little different it's not loose enough. People are scared of making mistakes which affects them just as badly. Either way its a shocking state of affairs. Thanks didn't that Irish guy 'McKintyre' do something about this or is this the same one?

[James Lewis]

Peter, you definitely have a point on your post, but with all due respect, you've forgotten about the major reason that prisons in the US have deteriorated to the point that they are at today. That reason is money. You know the old saying..."Money talks, BS walks"? When you have a for-profit prison system, which is financed by the public sector, the bottom line...and I mean the bottom line, is all that matters. Speaking of Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), the major subject of this thread, I can speak from experience that the bottom line is all that matters. $22 per inmate, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year...or at least that was the going rate when I left.

That's why private facilities especially are full all of the time - they can't afford to be below capacity. And officers right now are doing so much overtime because of minimum staffing laws, the turnover rate is staggering. And trust me...officers don't get treated that much better than offenders.

Finland is civilized. The USA is not. When you are caught parking illegally in Finland, the fine is sent to your home via mail or electronically and is based upon a % of your income...billionaires [there aren't any, but....] would pay a fortune; a poor person almost nothing....but an equal share of what they have - equal pain and penalty. Finland and the other Scandinavian countries are based more on compassion and forgiveness - helping someone to live a better life. USA on retribution and sadism - with a religious overtone - and help is for those who don't need it....if you need it, it is not available!.....from a bank loan to welfare or medical care.

New Zealand inspired a lot of the stuff they have in Scandanavia nowadays and we decided in the mid 80's to go the US route and bingo.

[Jan Klimkowski]

Thanks didn't that Irish guy 'McKintyre' do something about this or is this the same one?

Donal MacIntyre went undercover in around 2002 in a Kent care home, and that expose resulted in two staff receiving police cautions.

However, "undercover" reporters for television programmes have a very short shelf life as they quickly become highly recognizable. MacIntyre's undercover career was over when he was spotted and followed by Brixton street "gangstas" during a follow-up documentary.

The British care home expose I mentioned above was brand new and broadcast in the past few days.

Plus ça change.

[Seamus Coogan]

Thanks didn't that Irish guy 'McKintyre' do something about this or is this the same one?

Donal MacIntyre went undercover in around 2002 in a Kent care home, and that expose resulted in two staff receiving police cautions.

However, "undercover" reporters for television programmes have a very short shelf life as they quickly become highly recognizable. MacIntyre's undercover career was over when he was spotted and followed by Brixton street "gangstas" during a follow-up documentary.

The British care home expose I mentioned above was brand new and broadcast in the past few days.

Plus ça change.

Thanks mate. Great background. Ill have a watch and let you know sounds really interesting.