On Edwin Kaiser and Related Topics

[Scott Kaiser]

Do you want more? Or, have I said enough, and we shall now let this thread go?

[Scott Kaiser]

Why is it that my ears are ringing as I'm hearing some of you say, "let this thread go."... lol... Hey, you're the pro, prove me wrong, kinda like my father use to say to me, put up or shut up. Until I've been corrected, I suppose this information which has never before been released is going to be pretty hard to swallow, and I can understand that, but these are the facts.

I know that some may think that I'm siding with the exiles as I've read some of your statements before, and certainly I'm not a Kennedy groupie, so, here goes. I'm for neither but the truth, and if you can't handle that, I'm sorry.

[Rolf Zaeschmar]

There is no way the 4000 or so Brigade members could have taken the fight all the way to Havana. I believe the original plan called for the airfield at the Bay of Pigs to be captured, the exile government to be flown in, where they would make radio broadcasts appealing for international aid. Thereupon the Marines would land, and do all the heavy lifting until Castro was killed or captured. Did JFK know of this? I doubt it. I think the CIA and Pentagon were confident they could force his hand in approving military aid once the landing had been made.

https://www.questia.com/read/1G1-2649299...ay-of-pigs
.... the CIA task force in charge of the paramilitary assault did not believe it could succeed without becoming an open invasion supported by the U.S. military. The assessment was part of a brief prepared for President-elect Kennedy that he never saw.

Anyway I don't believe there was ever any hard evidence that it was Kennedy who canceled the second round of airstrikes. Certainly when he appeared in front of thousands of Brigade members repatriated from Cuban prisons in a Miami stadium 18 months later, he received an enthusiastic welcome. In his book "Bay of Pigs," author Howard Jones traces the cancellation order to Deputy CIA head Charles Cabell, leaving open the possibility that the CIA sabotaged its own operation. I think what happened is that the President got wise to what the real plan of the CIA was, and told them again in no uncertain terms that US military involvement was not an option. The CIA guys then knew their plan was doomed, so they cancelled the other planned B-26 airstrikes, leading to a quick end for the Brigade. A little disaster being better than a big one.

[Scott Kaiser]

Interesting theory, the CIA wanted to sabotage it's own mission, the actual plan was to count on the Cubans in Cuba to rise against Castro. But Castro already instilled fear in the Cubans, the revolution would not loose. I agree, 1,500 against 30,000 is a bit unfair, but had the landing not been changed, and air cover was provided, and all of Castro's planes were destroyed, and guerilla fighting started in the mountains were it should have been, and the Cubans in Cuba revolted, Then the odds wouldn't have seemed so bad, would you agree? What it all came down to was a willingness to take on the odds even though everyone knew it was doomed from the beginning, so, how do you bestowed optimism in a willing and fighting force? By an illusion?

[Rolf Zaeschmar]

Then the odds wouldn't have seemed so bad, would you agree?

Well that's the rosy scenario painted by the CIA when they sold JFK on the project. The President was known to be very angry and bitter with the CIA afterwards, telling his aides that he had been lied to, which resulted in a purge of the agency. The first round went to JFK. But then they started plotting their revenge.

[Jim DiEugenio]

Kennedy never cancelled a second air strike.

Because the second air strike was contingent upon securing a beach head. That has become pretty clear now with the release of the declassified record. There are at least five sources for this now. Including a couple of CIA ones. Including the revised plan memo of March 15th. (See Destiny Betrayed, second edition, p. 45) And in fact Bissell knew this in advance. (ibid, p. 46) So did Cabell. (ibid)

As McNamara told Noel Twyman, the second raid was not in the final plan. Its something that the CIA sprung on the White House. (ibid) When Dulles understood that he was going to be exposed on this during the Taylor hearings, he had Charles Murphy and Howard Hunt make up this BS story for Fortune Magazine: that JFK had cancelled the second strike. Kennedy was so angry at this canard that he stripped Murphy of his Air Force reserve status. (ibid)

The idea that Kennedy picked Playa Giron is nonsense. Because Dulles and Bissell never left the plans with JFK. He told them to come up with something that less resembled a frontal strike force operation. The CIA picked Playa Giron for two reasons. First, because they told JFK there were no police forces there. Second, because it had better terrain for at least one air strip, and maybe two. (p. 37) Because that early, or late, Kennedy had made it clear to Bissell that he wanted the second strike to come from inside Cuba.

The whole thing was a charade. Once Castro rolled up the resistance on the island, and once he went on full alert, since he knew it was coming, it was doomed. There was no hope of teaming up with any rebels, and not one single deserter ever made it to the front. (ibid, pgs.35, 36, 40) Plus, there was a police force at Playa Giron and they alerted Castro.

The CIA had lied to Kennedy about all of those elements. And not just lied, but lied extravagantly. They had told him that up to 75 % of the militia would defect. (ibid, p. 36) Which was so wrong it was grotesque. But that is why they included something like 27,000 rifles on one of the ships.

This was all exposed during the Taylor hearings, because RFK simply could not believe the BS story that Dulles tried to lay on him.(ibid, p. 42) Lyman Kirkpatrick did not buy it either. (p. 45) As anyone who studied amphibious operations knows, the invading team has to outnumber the defenders, by a significant margin. In this case it was the opposite. And it only got as far as it did because Dulles made sure there were no amphibious experts on the CIA review team. That is how crafty the old fart was about this.

[Scott Kaiser]

Well good morning to you my fellow constituents, I was wondering what took Jim so long to respond? Mr. Zaeschmar, before quoting me saying, "the odds wouldn't have seemed so bad, wouldn't you agree." I ask that you please read why I say the odds wouldn't have been so bad had ALL the other efforts been made, right? For example, lets take the fact that when Fidel Castro regrouped to fight Batista in the mountains, Castro's revolution took two years, the Brigade took two days. Castro only had twelve men to Batista's army, would you say the odds were any better for Fidel then the Brigades?

No, the second airstrikes were not contingent on securing the beach head, in-fact, there was no beach, it was more like swap land, kinda like landing right in the middle of the everglades, how could you not be spotted? The second set of airstrikes were to completely eliminate Castro's air force, and since they were called off, (orders given by Kennedy to Bundy to place that call) the A-4 Skyhawks inadvertently were an hour late to provide the air-cover needed to complete this mission of eliminating Castro's air-force entirely, Colonel Prouty.

Without the entire release of the fifth volume there seems to be quit a bit of speculation as to who called off the second airstrikes, however, I'm sure we all agree that presidential advisor Bundy did, correct? Now, lets ask why and how could Bundy make such a call? Just as soon as the CIA had cut its communications with the impending fleet, no doubt the CIA knew it was doomed from the start unless American military was used. Yes, they did try and force Kennedy to invade Cuba, all the right elements for doing so were in place, however, he would not. During the planning of the Bay of Pigs, Kennedy allowed an impending fleet to be docked along the coast of Cuba, why? Why should the American fleet been given the appearance of an invasion if Kennedy said no American military would be used? It was an illusion wasn't it? It brought on false hope! Then, Kennedy allowed American military to be used by allowing air cover for the B-26's by American fighter pilots flying A-4 Skyhawkes right? Please inform me if I'm wrong.

Kennedy did announce NO AMERICAN MILITARY WOULD BE USED, period. But, that's not true either is it? Kennedy approved the change in landing, does this mean he made the change himself? No, certainly not, but he did approve the change from Trinidad to the Bay of Pigs simply because the brass as well as Kennedy believed the air fields were far too short for landing. The question is, landing what? The planning on landing the B26s was suicide, they were to slow for aerial attacks, what good would they have done on the ground? Perhaps, it was the the A-4s that needed a longer landing strip because of the air speed?

We do agree Jim that Dulles was a crafty old fart.

[Scott Kaiser]

Truth is, Kennedy was relying on the airstrikes to complete its missions with the few planes it had, but when the battle started, Kennedy had a change of heart. The CIA wanted more of gorilla warfare, air and on the ground assault hoping for Cubans inside Cuba to join the Brigade in the mountains of Trinidad, neither Kennedy or the CIA really got what they wanted, and Castro won.

However, in the end, the CIA took out Kennedy, and only the greatest patriot in the world had discovered the only known photographs associated with the men in Dallas on 11/22/1963.

[Scott Kaiser]

^Edited #24.

[Scott Kaiser]

While some folks look at the glass half empty, I see the glass half full.

::evilpenguin::