What do we know about DPD Patrick Dean?

[Magda Hassan]

FWIW:http://www.history-matters.com/archive/j...5_Dean.pdf

the various interrogations of Oswald from the time he was captured to the time of his killing?
Mr. WADE. If there are any, I have never seen them. I hare asked for them,
but you are dealing with a man who not only doesn't make transcripts, but
doesn't even make notes. Captain Fritz is the one who interrogated him most
of the time, and if you-if there is any written eritlence of what he said it must
be from the FBI or the Secret Service or someone who interviewed him. I
assume they make a record of what he said to them.
Mr. DULLES. If any transcript was made we would hare had it, would we not?
So far as you know?
Mr. WADE. The only thing I know I never have seen one, and I don't have one
of an interview, and I don't know of any-you should have it, but gou are
dealing with Fritz there who interviewed Ruby, and Melvin Belli went right
into the conversation with Ruby, and Belli at 4 o'clock that afternoon made
everything admissible, and we couldn't get a thing, couldn't lmt Fritz on the
stand because he couldn't remember anything that was helpful. I mean, he
could remember Rnby rambling around the situation, but I don't know of any
transcript like that that I have that you don't have.
Mr. DULLES. In your talks, going back to your talks, with Mr. Carter at the
White House--
Mr. WADE. Carter; yes.
Mr. DULLES. Carter-did any questions come up in these conversations about
not raising the issue that he was a Communist or that there might be a con-
spiracy or something of that kind?
Mr. WADE. No, sir; that conversation, I'm rather sure sometime Friday
afternoon, and he called me and said, "Are they making any progress on the
case?" You see, Cliff Carter and I are close personal friends. I have known
him, and they were all upset, and I said, "I don't know. I have heard they have
got some pretty good evidence." I think that is the only conversation I had
with him.
Somebody told me, Mr. Carr, I believe, or Barefoot Sanders, that they had had
some conversations with some Washington officials, and I have got an impression
it was the State Department, but it might have been-that they-concerning
the international conspiracy angle. I didn't discuss it because it was silly,
I mean the whole thing was a silly deal.
I mean, if you would prove he was a Communist, suppose he gave a statement
he was a Communist, I wouldn't have put that in a murder charge because I
had to prove it.
Mr. DULLES. That is all I have, Mr. Chief Justice.
The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all, Mr. Wade. Thank you very much for your
cooperation.
Mr. WADE. I appreciate what you all are doing and your problems you have
got up here. I know if I were in your place I would hate to listen to somebody
like me talk 5 hours.
The CHAIRMAN. 811 right. We will recess until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12 :50 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF PATRICK T. DEAN
The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.
(Chairman Warren presiding and Mr. Dulles present.)
The CHAIRMAN. All right, gentlemen.
Do you have a statement?
Mr. RANKIN. Sergeant Dean asked if he couldn't appear before the Commission
and testify. We took his deposition in Dallas, and he asked, when he signed his
254 deposition, whether he couldn't appear personally, so we are permitting him to
do this.
The CHAIRXAS. We are very happy to have you, Sergeant. Will you raise
your right hand and be sworn. please?
You solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission
shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. DEAN. I do.
The CHAIR~~AS. Be seated, please.
Mr. Rankin, you may examine the witness.
Mr. RANKIS. Sergeant, will you give us your name, your address. please?
Mr. DESS. Patrick T. Dean. I live at XL2 Nicholson Drive in Dallas.
Mr. RASICIN. Are you connected with the police department in Dallas?
Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. RAXKIN. What is your position?
Mr. DEAS. I am a sergeant on patrol.
Mr. RANKIN. How long have you been an official in the police department?
Mr. DEAN. Eleven and a half years.
Mr. RAKKIT. Will you tell us briefly any training or experience you have had?
Mr. DEAK. Well, I worked as a patrolman for 5 years. Then I was pro-
moted to sergeant and remained in the patrol division. I have since been in
the patrol division the rest of the time.
Mr. RANKIN. You have given us your deposition, have you not, Sergeant?
Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. And is that correct and true as far as anything you know?
Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Is there any part of it that you want to change or correct or
modify?
Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I feel the main reason I wanted to appear before the
Commission was about the 20 or 25 minutes that was off the record that I feel
I would like the Commission to have on the record, and this is between Mr.
Griffin and I. He was the original one who started my deposition.
Mr. RAR'KIN. Well, do you want to tell that at this time?
First, is there anything about what you said on the record that was not
correct?
Mr. DEAN. No, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. And the truth?
Mr. DEAN. No, sir.
Well, Mr. Griffin had questioned me about 2 hours, or maybe a little longer.
There was no problems at all. no difficulties. And after that length of time, a
little over 2 hours, Mr. Griffin desired to get off the record, and he advised the
court reporter that he would be off the record and he could go smoke a cigarette
or get a Coke, and he would let him know when he wanted him to get back on
the record.
Well, after the court reporter left, Mr. Griffin started talking to me in a
manner of gaining my confidence in that he would help me and that he felt I
would probably need some help in the future.
My not knowing what he was building up to, I asked Mr. Griffin to go ahead
and ask me what he was going to ask me. He continued to advise me that
he wanted me to listen to what he had to say before he asked me whatever
question he was going to ask me. I finally told him that whatever he wanted
to ask me he could just ask me, and if I knew I would tell him the truth or
if I didn't know, I would tell him I didn't know.
Mr. Griffin took my reports, one dated February 18, the subject of it was
an interview with Jack Ruby, and one dated November 26, which was my
assignment in the basement.
He said there were things in these statements which were not true and, in
fact, he said both these statements, he said there were particular things in
there that were not true, and I asked him what portions did he consider not
true, and then very dogmatically he said that, "Jack Ruby didn't tell you that
he entered the basement via the Main Street ramp."
And, of course, I was shocked at this. This is what I testified to, in fact,
I was cross-examined on this, and he, Mr. Griffin, further said, "Jack Ruby
255 did not tell you that he had thought or planned to kill Oswald two nights prior."
And he said, "Your testimony was false, and these reports to your chief of
police are false."
So this, of course, all this was off the record. I told Mr. Griffin then this
shocked me, and I told him it shocked me; that I couldn't imagine what he
was getting at or why he would accuse me of this, and I asked him, and Mr.
Griffin replied he didn't or he wasn't at liberty to discuss that particular pati
of it with me, and that he wasn't trying to cross-examine me here, but that under
cross-examination he could prove that my testimony was false, and that is when
I told Mr. Griffin that these are the facts and I can't change them. This is
what I know about it.
I quoted Ruby just about verbatim, and since he didn't believe me, and I
was saying they were true, we might as well terminate the interview.
Mr. Griffin then got bark on the record, or before he did get back on the record,
he said, "Well now, Sergeant Dean, I respect you as a witness, I respect you in
your profession, but 1 have offered my help and assistance, and I again will offer
you my assistance, and that I don't feel you will be subjecting yourself to loss
of your job." or some words to that effect, "If you will go ahead and tell me
the truth about it."
I again told Mr. Griffin that these were the facts and I couldn't change them,
so with that we got back on the record.
Mr. RASKIN. Did you ask Mr. Griffin to ever put this part that was off the
record on the record?
Mr. DEAN. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. RAP~KIN. Why didn't you at that time?
Mr. DEAN. Well, now the discussion was, I said, "Mr. Griffin, I have waived
my rights for an attorney, of which I don't feel like I need one." I still don't
feel like I need one.
The CHAIRMAN. And you do not need one either Sergeant.
Mr. DEAN. True.
The CHAIR~~~N. You will get along all right.
Mr. DEAN. Thank you.
I said, "I have come over here with the idea of giving you all the information
that I have." In fact, I had some additional information that I had gotten
the night before, and it was a call that I had received from some man in Vic-
toria, Canada, who said he had a reel of movie film that he had taken of the
assassination.
I got this man's name, where he called from, had the police department in
Victoria check to crisscross the number, and I gave him the nam+well, all
the information as to where the call had originated from, his name, also this
man's attorney, he had given me his name, and I told him that the reason the
man had called, had called especially for me at the police department, was t.hat
he had a reel of movie film that he had taken the day of the assassination and
that these--or the camera was on the President at the time of the assassination,
and he described to me the position as to where he was, which was across and in
trajectory of the line of fire, and that he felt that in addition to the assassination
that he had gotten the School Book Depository.
I told Mr. Griffin at the time that I had told this man---I can't remember his
name, the FBI has gotten it, and at the time I gave it to Mr. Griffin, I told
this man on the telephone from Victoria that night that he should send these
things, this Alm, that he said wasn't developed, to the Warren Commission.
He said, that is when he told me that he had contacted his attorney in Victoria
and that his attorney's name was Batter, and he spelled it for me, B-a-t-t-e-r,
and his attorney had advised him not to send this information to the Warren
Commission but to contact someone in Dallas and send it to them.
This man told me that he had read something about my testimony and that
he asked me would it be all right for him to send it to me, and I told him, "Yes,"
and I said I was supposed to go back to the Warren Commission and he could
send it to me, and I would make it available for them.
This was just additional information that I told Mr. Griffin that I was-this
is an example-I was there to help them in any way I could.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, the differences in your testimony that Mr. Grifan was dis-
256 cussing with you off the record, you have gone into that in detail on the record,
haven't you, in your deposition?
Mr. DEAN. Yes; I beliere I hare, about how Ruby entered the basement or
how he told me how he entered the basement. Also that he had thought two
nights prior when he saw Lee Oswald on a showup stand with a sarcastic sneer
on his face is when he decided if he got the chance he would kill him. This was
the thing that I testified in court about. I was cross-examined in court.
Mr. RASKIN. And you hare explained all that in your deposition, haven't you?
Mr. DEAN. I beliere so; I am not certain.
Mr. RANKIN. And did he ask you about why you didn't hare your-this
information about his planning to shoot Oswald the night before, or on the
Friday-
Mr. DEAN. Now, are you askin g did Xr. Griffin ask me why I didn't-
Mr. RANKIN. Why you didn't put it in your February-in your statement
before the February 18 one?
Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir ; I believe he did, and I explained to him this wasn't the sub-
ject-the subject of that Sorember 26 report was my assignment. I didn't put
any of the conversation as to what Mr. Sorrels and I talked to Mr. Ruby about.
I did put at the closing paragraph, I think. and I haTe a copy of it here, that my
main concern was how he got into the basement and how long he had been there
because I was in charge of the security of the basement.
Mr. RANKIN. So you didn't put it in your prior reports?
Mr. DEAN. No, sir; this was later on. Chief Curry-I think probably it was
February l&and I think I probably wrote it that day, called me to his office
and asked me had I heard all the interview of Ruby and Sorrels, and I told
him that I did, and he asked me could I remember it pretty well, and I said,
"Yes, I believe I can remember most all of it," and that is when Chief Curry told
me that; he said, "Well, you are going to have to testify to it because Mr.
Sorrels can't because he says he didn't warn Mr. Ruby when he was questioning
him.
Well, this was fine with me. I wrote the renort. This was February 18.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell Mr. Griffin at that time that you thought it was
unimportant or had some other reason for not including it?
Mr. DEAN. I believe that I told him that the investigation, the focal point,
was as to how he got into the basement. There was an officer, and I knew who
the officer was, I assigned him there myself, and I felt this was more of a part
of the investigation in which it was investigated-Officer R. E. Vaughan was
investigated as to whether or not he let Ruby into the basement or saw him in
the basement, and, of course, he was cleared of this. I know of no-the only
information I passed on about that was when Jack Ruby told me how he entered.
I told my superiors and then they carried it on from there as far as the
investigation.
Mr. RANKIN. And about his planning to shoot him prior to the day that-
Mr. DEAN. Now, this wasn't-the only time that I put that in the report was
February 18.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes; did you explain to Mr. Griffin in your prior testimony why
you didn't put it in?
Mr. DEAN. I believe that I did; I am not sure.
Mr. RAPI'KIN. Do you want to add anythin g to that, just anything that you
wanted, to the Commission?
The CHAIRJIAN. Do you recall whether you were asked that specific question
or not, Sergeant? May I ask, Mr. Rankin, was he asked that question, and did
he answer it?
Mr. RANKIN. I have to look at the record to be sure.
Mr. Chief Justice, in answer to-your question, he was asked about what was
the first time that he had given this information and if this was the date. He
was not asked for any explanation as to why he didn't give it at any earlier
time.
The CH~IR~~AN. Then we can't blame him if he didn't answer why.
Mr. RANKIN. So; I just wanted to find out if he wanted to add anything at
this time that would complete the record.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes; all right.
257 JIr. DEAS. Well, my main concern has been in some way this got out to the
palm-s. The only thing I told the papers was that I can't give any statement.
I said I have no comment, and I feel that the accusation started with my denial
because I haven't had an 0pl)ortunity to deny it. The story came nut in the
leapers and it has been on the radio sorer:11 times, and. in fact. several times since
the original, some weeks or so after the paper learned of it of the so-called rift,
as they put it.
They had the one side of it that he accused me of lying. He didn't use the
word "lie," he just said, "These are false statetllents. and when you testified
in court you testified falsely." He didn't use the word "lying," and a lot of
papers have since then used the word "lying."
I feel like the accusation is a lot stronger than my denial because I haven't
denied it. I haven't made any statement at all to press or radio or any news
media. I just told them it will have to come from the Warren Commission or
some other source.
Mr. RANKIN. What I was asking, Sergeant, was whether there is anything
that you would like to tell the Commission or add to your testimony about why
it wasn't in the earlier statement prior to February 18 that you haven't already
told us.
Mr. DEAN. Well, I don't think I would like-if I could, I would like to know
why Mr. Griffin had accused me of perjury. Of course, this is something for
you people to know, but I just-he wouldn't discuss it with me.
The CHAIR~IAN. Well, Sergeant, I want to say to you that, of course, without
knowing what your conversation was with Mr. Griffin, I have never talked to
Mr. Griffin about this. I didn't know that you had this altercation with him,
but I want to say this: That so far as the jurisdiction of this Commission is
concerned and its procedures, no member of our staff has a right to tell any
witness that he is lying or that he is testifying falsely. That is not his business.
It is the business of this Commission to appraise the testimony of all the wit-
nesses, and, at the time you are talking about, and up to the present time, this
Commission has never appraised your testimony or fully appraised the testimony
of any other witness, and furthermore, I want to say to you that no member of
our staff has any power to help or injure any witness.
So, so far as that conversation is concerned, there is nothing that will be
binding upon this Commission.
Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir.
The CHAIR>IAN. But, as I say, I don't know what your conversation was with
Griffin, but I am just telling ydu as to what the limitations of the members of
our staff are.
Mr. DEAN. Yes, sir; thank you. That is about all I had.
Mr. RANKIN. That is all I have, Mr. Chief Justice.
The CHAIRLIAR'. Well, thank you, Sergeant, for coming and feeling as you
do, I am glad you had the frankness to come and talk to the Commission,
and offer to testify concerning it.
Mr. DEAN. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.
The CHAIRMAN. All right, Sergeant.
Mr. DEAN. Thank you. It is nice to have met you.
Mr. RASKIN. Waggoner, do you want to take the stand for a minute about
that conversation?
The CHAIRMAN. You are going to ask the General about it?
Have you been sworn?
TESTIMONY OF WAGGONER CARR
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Com-
mission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. CARL I do.
The CHAIRMAN. Be seated, please.
Proceed, Mr. Rankin.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Carr, will you state your name and position for the record?
258