16-03-2018, 04:10 PM
Peter Lemkin Wrote:Ah, Tracy, But you missed the POINT! I'm personally rather agnostic on whether the Russians actually changed the election results. Oh, perhaps they tried, a little....but what you and most who hate Trump but love the Democrats miss is that the USA has BY FAR been the most egregious violator of democracy and voting in other countries by FAR, by any measure, by light years over all other countries combined! To not take that into account - as well as our messing with the USSR and Russia in various ways is to say, in effect "its wrong when 'they' do it; and its fine when we do it". That is an amoral position, and I will not concede that it is not. EVERY report on what may well have been Russian meddling in our election [and even perhaps for Trump] should also mention US meddling in hundreds of elections and polities. Half truths are falsehoods and used to mislead the people. Fine, condemn the Russians if they did so, but what they did, if they did, is child's play compared to what we have done and continue to do [but the Government, MSM, and many citizens play ostrich about]. We will not root out evil if we practice it ourselves and only condemn it when others do it.
Trump has done money laundering for Russians and has done other kinds of deals with Russians that are not savory. He should be condemned for that....but again, all persons who do that should be no matter their status or nationality nor the status or nationality of the dirty money or where it goes to or through. Condemn all equally. And if Trump campaign people were colluding with Russians to rig the election - fine drag 'em to court and put 'em behind bars - but the Clintons do not have clean hands, nor do many others on the other 'side of the aisle'. A plague on all their houses and deeds. I'd love nothing more than for Trump to resign, be impeached or commit suicide - but please for his real crimes, not invented ones, and not without a public awareness that others have done and continue to do the same. I'm all for cleaning up Dodge, but Dodge is not just the White House or Mar Lago now.
Peter, I don't know how many times I've said this, and it doesn't seem like anyone here listens. I don't "love the Democrats." I used to be a Republican and now I'm an independent. Okay?
"the Clintons do not have clean hands"
Bill Clinton hasn't been in the White House for 17 years, and Hillary will never be President. Why some people are continuing to obsess about them daily, I really don't know.
And I've said at LEAST a dozen times that I have never agreed with US meddling in other countries' elections, but that doesn't give any country the right to meddle in ours - it's wrong no matter who does it. And Americans can't just develop a passive attitude of, "Well, we did it to other countries, so we have to flop over and play dead while Putin screws us."
Now they are apparently targeting our infrastructure and power grid:
"Russian hackers are conducting a broad assault on the U.S. electric grid, water processing plants, air transportation facilities and other targets in rolling attacks on some of the country's most sensitive infrastructure, U.S. government officials said Thursday.
The announcement was the first official confirmation that Russian hackers have taken aim at facilities on which hundreds of millions of Americans depend for basic services. Bloomberg News reported in July that Russian hackers had breached more than a dozen power plants in seven states, an aggressive campaign that has since expanded to dozens of states, according to a person familiar with the investigation.
"Since at least March 2016, Russian government cyber actors" have targeted "government entities and multiple U.S. critical infrastructure sectors," including those of energy, nuclear, water and aviation, according to an alert issued Thursday by the Department of Homeland Security and Federal Bureau of Investigation."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...-fbi-warns