The "deeper" implications of parading three "tramps" thru DP

[David Josephs]

We've established that more than just the three in the images were pulled from the trains in the RR yard (Harkness)

We've established that the three whose name appear on Arrest Reports spent 3-4 days in jail while the three in the images were set free after meeting with Decker

We've reasonably established that Lansdale walked past these men to the west of the TSBD entrance.

We've also established that Wise was not entirely truthful about who was with him in the photos - if indeed THESE PHOTOS were the ones shown to him
(I have yet to see evidence of which photos these men were shown)

We've established contradictory evidence that these men were, on the one hand, dirty, smelly and disgusting...
while on the other, Gedney claims they were at the Salvation Army together, had cleaned up and eaten before going to the rr yards.

Wise tells the FBI that he, Bass, Vaughn and Middleton we detailed to go check out the "rail tower" and talk to a man there with info about men who had hopped a train...
(attached - Middleton claims he was not at work that day while Wise swears to it)


Q1: Were the photographed "tramps" really on the train?
Wise only describes the elderly tramp - who has a paper bag with some personal items along with a knife, that Wise takes and keeps...
The photo of them in front of the TSBD (with who appears to be Oswald out front talking to a cop in the background) shows the elderly tramp with the paper bag...

SPECUALTION: The elderly tramp really was one of the three tramps on the arrest report... Gus Abrahms, 53... while the others were not Doyle and/or Gedney.


Q2: Who did Decker let go, in a somewhat unusual way?
From the arrest reports and the interviews with Abrahms, Doyle and Gedney... they were in jail thru the weekend, release on the 26th.

From the attached, Wise let's us know he was informed they were let go. He never SEES the three leave... which, imo, supports the possbility that Abrahms was kept while the other two were released.
Add not Harness' comment about more than just the three pictured taken from the trains... and I believe we have the makings of a switch... Not three for three...
but two for two... which in the CIA world of plans, a little truth infused in a lie helps confuse the issue even further.


Q3: Could the parade thru DP simple be made to establish there were THREE TRAMPS, and nothing more?
Well.. IMO that is part of the process.

Let's suppose the two other tramps, the clean ones in suits and smirks, were there simply to confuse the issue... red herrings to point to Mafia connections...
for as far as I know, these men were never seen or discussed prior to these pictures... they were not at Odio's house.... they were not seen with Ferrie/Shaw/Ruby/Oswald

So they serve but 2 purposes... establish THREE TRAMPS for history's sake and lead us down the wrong paths.


Q4: What happened to the other men removed from the train according to Harkness?
THAT is the $64,000 question... for while the three depicted in the photos were part of those removed, they were not ALL of the men removed.
Somehow Gedney and Doyle make it back to the station to be booked with Abrahms, without being seen by anyone... (maybe the same way the two left without being seen by Wise, these other two arrived)

The PHOTOS and testimony can be accurate and truthful.. these WERE the men escorted from the train... just not all of them.


So while red herrings have been chased for years trying to ID these men... nothing definitive has been proven....

If one reads the interviews of Gedney we find the threesome hanging together for quite some time... do two early 30's guys as we see in the images and a 53 year old drunk seem an odd trio to you?
http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10151-10214


The little detail of the paper bag that Abrahms had is either another outright lie by Wise... and that person was part of the ruse... or he was truthful by accident and allows us to conclude that really was Abrahms in order to give credibility when looking back on the incident.

Does anyone know of any evidence of these OTHER MEN FROM THE TRAIN being escorted to the station by any of the key players: Harkness, Haygood, Vaughn, Bass, Middleton, ???

[LR Trotter]

At one time, 2 of the 3 "Dealey Plaza Tramps" were suggested to be Houston residents Charles Rogers and Charles Harrelson. That of course perked up my interest in their true identity. After I saw the report that identified the shorter of the 2 as Harold Doyle, and the taller gentleman as John Gedney, I studied the photographs as best I could and over time became satisfied that the so called "Charles Rogers Tramp" was in fact, Harold Doyle. And, I am also satisfied that the gentleman referenced as the "Charles Harrelson Tramp" is actually John Gedney. I developed my opinion based on similar, although age progressed, features. I make no claim to be an expert and confirm this is just my opinion. Now, whether or not the 3 gentlemen participated in the events of 11/22'63, I have no opinion. As for the older of the 3, who likewise was identified by the same arrest records that surfaced some years after '63, who has been identified as Gus Abrams, the photos are not, at least for me, very identity worthy.

[Jan Klimkowski]

I'm very happy for this debate to continue.

In considering the investigative research already conducted, perhaps we'll uncover something new.

Ladies and gentlemen - onwards.

[David Josephs]

At one time, 2 of the 3 "Dealey Plaza Tramps" were suggested to be Houston residents Charles Rogers and Charles Harrelson. That of course perked up my interest in their true identity. After I saw the report that identified the shorter of the 2 as Harold Doyle, and the taller gentleman as John Gedney, I studied the photographs as best I could and over time became satisfied that the so called "Charles Rogers Tramp" was in fact, Harold Doyle. And, I am also satisfied that the gentleman referenced as the "Charles Harrelson Tramp" is actually John Gedney. I developed my opinion based on similar, although age progressed, features. I make no claim to be an expert and confirm this is just my opinion. Now, whether or not the 3 gentlemen participated in the events of 11/22'63, I have no opinion. As for the older of the 3, who likewise was identified by the same arrest records that surfaced some years after '63, who has been identified as Gus Abrams, the photos are not, at least for me, very identity worthy.

LR... if you could post or direct us to theses photos you've used for comparison it would help with our understanding of your conclusions....

Are you saying you've have seen photos of John Forrester Gedney, Harold Doyle, and Gus W. Abrahms, independent of the three tramps photos from DP...
or are you making this conclusion based on comparing their supposed identities to Harrelson and Rogers, finding that Harrelson is not the same as the man ID'd as Gedney and Rogers is not the same as the man ID'd as Doyle?

At this point in the discussion I am not concluding WHO these other two men are.... I have never seen photos of Gedney, Doyle or Abrahms from 1963.

What I do know is that the FBI reports contradict themselves. Gedney, Doyle and Abrahms were detained and released from jail on 11/26/63.
Each man states they spent a few days in jail and were released... while Wise tells the FBI that HE was informed the three men were released on 11/22 after talking with Decker... although they did not leave via the "normal" route.

We can't have it both ways... I could understand if the three arrest reports were created after the fact (as Chambers cannot remember completing them) yet then how would the three men each tell of being kept thru the 26th?
Of course they could have been intimidated into corroborating the story....

If they were just three hobos, why hide the fact of their processing for so long?

I'm just trying to work it thru... Harkness let slip that there were other men taken from the train at that time....


What can be gained from a "deep" POV by creating enough of a scene with these men to insure photos being taken... when so many other "suspects and witnesses" were wisked off by car?
Does not that suggest a plan and purpose for these men to be photographed in DP.... which in turn works bacward to their being in the right place to be taken from the train in the first place.... and on back from there.

Mr. BELIN - Do you know whether or not anyone found any suspicious people of any kind or nature down there in the railroad yard
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir. We made some arrests, I put some people in.
Mr. BELIN - Were these what you call hoboes or tramps?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Were all those questioned?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir; they were taken to the station and questioned.
Mr. BELIN - Any guns of any kind found?
Mr. HARKNESS - Not to my knowledge.

[LR Trotter]

Mr Josephs, I repeat, I developed my opinion based on similar, although age progressed, features. I make no claim to be an expert and confirm this is just my opinion.
There is a youtube interview with Mr Doyle in Dealey Plaza from a few years back, and the height, eyes, jawline, and ears appear the same, but older. I will try to locate any online photos of Mr Gedney and post that info, but a search should locate them, if there is some pressing need to prove me wrong.

:nosmilie:

[David Josephs]

Mr Josephs, I repeat, I developed my opinion based on similar, although age progressed, features. I make no claim to be an expert and confirm this is just my opinion.
There is a youtube interview with Mr Doyle in Dealey Plaza from a few years back, and the height, eyes, jawline, and ears appear the same, but older. I will try to locate any online photos of Mr Gedney and post that info, but a search should locate them, if there is some pressing need to prove me wrong.

:nosmilie:

I'm sorry that you feel all I am doing is trying to prove anyone right or wrong.... I was simply wondering if there were images of these men from 1963 I hadn't seen.

I also make no comment as to your skills in any area.

I would, instead, be interested in your analysis of the evidence presented though... similarities in facial features notwithstanding...
I don't think we can come to a definite conclusion based on a visual comparison. (the "faces of Oswald" graphic illustrates my point...)

2-3 men were released on 11/22 according to Decker's deputy as told to Wise
3 men were in jail until 11/26 according to the documentation and their own statements.

I do not think we can tell whether the men in the photos were part of the first or second group as there are no mug shots of the three men realeased on the 26th.
nor is there any documentation related to the "other men taken from the train" per Harkness...


Here are some witnesses being placed into a police car... yet these "tramps" are walked the length of DP with more than suspicious looking escorts.

Jan?

[Magda Hassan]

I'm very happy for this debate to continue.

In considering the investigative research already conducted, perhaps we'll uncover something new.

Ladies and gentlemen - onwards.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Jim DiEugenio]

I actually wish this whole issue would go away.

I mean, talk about a cul de sac.

I really like so much of David's work. And the poster about the time of the Trade mart lunch is a real jewel of a find.

But man, these three tramps, count me out. And I wish Stone had not included them in his film.

[Charles Drago]

The "tramps" were created to distract.

Does anyone actually believe that E and E systems for Facilitators and Mechanics in Dealey Plaza would be so poorly planned as to allow for capture and public display of the guilty -- unless it all was part of the operation?

This thread, for me, is part of an operation -- by design or effect -- to continue to mire us in nonsense.

Smoke and mirrors to distract the plebes.

This is kindergarten play time.

DPF is graduate school.

Or at least it should be.

Total waste of time.

[Charles Drago]

I'm very happy for this debate to continue.

In considering the investigative research already conducted, perhaps we'll uncover something new.

Ladies and gentlemen - onwards.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Not unless you're ready to shatter the envelope.