The Head Wounds Revisited

[Albert Doyle]

So instead you just line up your quote mining angels to support your pet thesis and ignore anything to the contrary, per Horne/Lifton?

How did the X-rays manage to be developed before the bronze show casket arrived? My angels are better than yours IMO...

[Albert Rossi]

There is some confusion I believe about the two military guard units and their function. Boyajian's unit was a security team who's charge was to keep out reporters, curiosity seekers, and other unauthorized personnel. Then the was the multi service Honor guard(white gloves) who did not arrive until 8:00(after chasing a decoy ambulance). I think a number of witnesses confused the two in there recollections. Some should go through a time line, listing just who was where when, and who saw what when.

Gordon,

I have some concerns about O'Neill (less so about Sibert). But it is not my intention to start a discussion here about the relative merits of each witness. What I wanted to say here is that I've been mulling over your suggestion. I think it may in fact be very useful to do this: neutrally, outside the context of the rather parti-pris reconstructions given in Horne, no matter what you believe about the events at Bethesda. I might even give it a try, if no one else more qualified wants to.

The chronology needs to be detailed, and report only what witnesses or documents report, with little, if any, authorial intervention.**

I guess what I am proposing is to take Vincent M. Palamara, The JFK Medical Reference [ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 4 No. 2]
© Copyright 2006 as a starting point and create a chronological version for Bethesda. Palamara is pre-Horne but is recent and compendious enough.

Unless you know of other resources like this. I took a quick look again at Ira David Wood III, "22 November 1963: A Chronology", Murder in Dealey Plaza, ed. Fetzer, pp. 17-118; he deals with some of this, but not in a detailed enough way concerning what we're interested in establishing.

--
** P.S. Of course, the difficulty in remaining neutral will come when the time of an observation cannot be pinpointed by explicit indications and some internal argument will have to be offered, which then becomes interpretation. This sort of deduction needs to be clearly flagged as such.

[Gordon Gray]

There is some confusion I believe about the two military guard units and their function. Boyajian's unit was a security team who's charge was to keep out reporters, curiosity seekers, and other unauthorized personnel. Then the was the multi service Honor guard(white gloves) who did not arrive until 8:00(after chasing a decoy ambulance). I think a number of witnesses confused the two in there recollections. Some should go through a time line, listing just who was where when, and who saw what when.

Gordon,

I have some concerns about O'Neill (less so about Sibert). But it is not my intention to start a discussion here about the relative merits of each witness. What I wanted to say here is that I've been mulling over your suggestion. I think it may in fact be very useful to do this: neutrally, outside the context of the rather parti-pris reconstructions given in Horne, no matter what you believe about the events at Bethesda. I might even give it a try, if no one else more qualified wants to.

The chronology needs to be detailed, and report only what witnesses or documents report, with little, if any, authorial intervention.**

I guess what I am proposing is to take Vincent M. Palamara, The JFK Medical Reference [ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 4 No. 2]
© Copyright 2006 as a starting point and create a chronological version for Bethesda. Palamara is pre-Horne but is recent and compendious enough.

Unless you know of other resources like this. I took a quick look again at Ira David Wood III, "22 November 1963: A Chronology", Murder in Dealey Plaza, ed. Fetzer, pp. 17-118; he deals with some of this, but not in a detailed enough way concerning what we're interested in establishing.

--
** P.S. Of course, the difficulty in remaining neutral will come when the time of an observation cannot be pinpointed by explicit indications and some internal argument will have to be offered, which then becomes interpretation. This sort of deduction needs to be clearly flagged as such.

Thanks Albert. Your input has been very helpful to me. I have no particular agenda when it comes to the medical evidence. I simply would like to get a better idea of what exactly happened. I have witnessed autopsies myself, and so I have no difficulty understanding Dr. Aguilar's explanations of how the wounds could appear different to the Dallas doctors and the autopsy witnesses. I do have difficulty explaining it others. I read through most of the ARRB depositions of the autopsy witnesses, as well as what HSCA interviews I could access on the internet, to see what I could find. Of course I didn't take notes, thinking that others had done this, and the answers would be clear. Apparently no one has, and this issue of body altering is such a contentious one, it is difficult to find an objective analysis that doesn't cherry pick evidence and testimony to fit their theory. Now I have a hard time remembering just who said what. The upshot of it was, however, that I could not piece together a coherent narrative, for any of the possible scenarios. I am going to try and go back and do this as I find the time. I find the Roshomon aspect of it all fascinating. If you do as well, let us know what you come up with.

[Albert Rossi]

Thanks Albert. Your input has been very helpful to me. I have no particular agenda when it comes to the medical evidence. I simply would like to get a better idea of what exactly happened. I have witnessed autopsies myself, and so I have no difficulty understanding Dr. Aguilar's explanations of how the wounds could appear different to the Dallas doctors and the autopsy witnesses. I do have difficulty explaining it others. I read through most of the ARRB depositions of the autopsy witnesses, as well as what HSCA interviews I could access on the internet, to see what I could find. Of course I didn't take notes, thinking that others had done this, and the answers would be clear. Apparently no one has, and this issue of body altering is such a contentious one, it is difficult to find an objective analysis that doesn't cherry pick evidence and testimony to fit their theory. Now I have a hard time remembering just who said what. The upshot of it was, however, that I could not piece together a coherent narrative, for any of the possible scenarios. I am going to try and go back and do this as I find the time. I find the Roshomon aspect of it all fascinating. If you do as well, let us know what you come up with.

This is so refreshing to hear. And yes, I agree with you about the cherry picking. I'd also be fascinated to know more about your autopsy experiences.

I, too, do not have too much free time on my hands, so if I undertook this, it would not be something I could polish off in a brief period.

I had another thought: perhaps actually entering this material into a queriable database would also be useful. I'd have to think a bit about the schema to use and the indexing.

Not making any solid promises here, though. Knowing how software metrics usually go, it's a pretty safe bet that one's original time estimate will have to be tripled.

[David Lifton]

I have always wondered why it would have been even necessary to alter the body. All they had to do was falsify the autopsy report to fit the desired scenario, which they did, falsify the X rays and photos, which they did, and swear all witnesses to secrecy, which they did. Reading the interviews and depositions of the various autopsy witnesses is like Rashomon. No one tells a consistent story, they have different recollections of time lines, and what they saw. One claimed the body was brought in in the early afternoon and was fully clothed with the head wrapped in a plastic bag. I would love to find one witness there, who saw a shipping casket delivered at 6:35, taken immediately into the morgue proper, opened, a body bag taken out, the president's body, removed from the body bag, and placed on the examining table. I don't believe there is one person who testifies to having seen all of this. For me the most compelling testimony is of the two FBI agents. As O'Neill himself pointed out they were the only ones there with no agenda. They were simply recording what they saw and heard with little understanding of it's implications.

About your post #7 on this thread:

The closest thing to the kind of witness you would likesomeone who saw a shipping casket brought in at 6:35 PMis Paul O'Connor. No, O'Connor was not wearing a watch, but he was inside the morgue and opened the shipping casket, and inside was a body bag. He opened the body bag, and inside was the President's body.

How do we know it was 6:35 PM plus a few minutes?

Because the person who brought the shipping casket to the morgue was the group of men assembled by Dennis David. Among them was Donald Rebentisch. I first interviewed Dennis David in July, 1979, by phone, and his account appears, verbatim, in Chapter 25 of Best Evidence. I interviewed him on camera in October, 1980. Similarly, I interviewed Paul O'Connor, by phone, in August,l 1979; and then on camera, in October 1980. The August 1979conversaton is Chapter 26 of Best Evidence.

All of the above filmed interviews are included in the home video documentary, BEST EVIDENCE: The Research Video.

I interviewed Donald Rebentisch in January 1981. He was one of the group that carried in the shipping casket, and then came back upstairs, there to see Mrs. Kennedy waiting in the lobby for the elevator. So obviously, the coffin in the naval ambulance was empty.

Dennis David told me that he witnessed the arrival of the black hearse with the shipping casket about 20 minutes prior to the arrival of the naval Ambulance carrying Jacqueline Kennedy, which arrived at 6:53 or 6:55 PM. So that would place his obseration at about 6:35 PM.

In 1997, the ARRB found the actual document executed by Sgt. Roger Boyajian, head of the USMC Security Detail at the morgue. That document states that the body was delivered at 18:35 (6:35 PM).

Of course, it would have been nice if there were security cameras placed all around Bethesda Naval Hospital, recording these events, and creating a time-stamped filmed record. But we don't have that. So we have to rely on human testimony, and its via those accounts that its possible to draw the inferences I have drawn, about when the body arrived, in the shipping casket.

I know there's been several attempts to bitch and moan about this data. But I think its pretty good data, and in fact quite definitive.

At to you opening point: "All they had to do was falsify the autopsy report. . " etc. No, its not so easy. Because you can't just have a "conspiracy of liars." The evidence itself had to be falsified, and that's what happened in this case.

Its always seemed ironic to me that the people who talk glibly of high level plots (e.g., DiEugenio and his pals) reject the most important evidence pertaining to exactly that: the alteration of the President's body prior to autopsy.

Former UCLA Law Professor Wesley Liebeler "got it" within minutes of being exposed to this evidence. And that's why he wrote the 13 page memorandum he did, in November 1966, about the existence of such evidence in the files of he WC. So did Doug Horne, when he first read Best Evidence. And when he and Jeremy Gunn had Dr. Boswell under oath, and Boswell drew a diagram, on a medical school skull, of how huge the head wound was at Bethesda, Horne had no doubt that my analysis was correct.

It's the President's body that is the most important evidence in this case, and those that want to argue the case by saying the Single Bullet Theory is wrong, or that there was "more than one assassin"and that's their "conspiracy" are, imho, swimming in the shallow end of the kiddie pool.

The most critical evidence in this case is President Kennedy's body, and the alteration of the wounds, prior to autopsy, is the most important evidence of a conspiracy to obstruct justice in force on the afternoon of November 22, 1963.

DSL
6/16/13; 1:15 AM PDT
Los Angeles, California

[Martin Hay]

Paul O' Connor told Andy Purdy that the "pink shipping casket..arrived approximately eight o'clock." (ARRB MD64) He said the same thing to David Lifton (Best Evidence, paperback edition, p. 695), to Roger Feinman (Between the Signal and the Noise, chapter 6), and William Matson Law (In the Eye of History, p. 35).

Dennis David said in a telephone interview for the ARRB that he witnessed the arrival of a "gray shipping casket" at about 6:45 pm. He did not see the casket opened. (ARRB MD177)

Roger Feinman writes about Donald Rebentisch in chapter 6 of Between the Signal and the Noise:


[quote]
For Donald Rebentisch, a petty officer who was stationed at Bethesda on the night of the autopsy, there was no big secret. Rebentisch was studying dental and medical equipment repair at the hospital at the time. According to Rebentisch, two ambulances carrying two caskets were employed one of them empty and one with the body of Kennedy in a deliberate charade to slip the President's body into Bethesda Naval Hospital. Rebentisch says his commanding officers told him the secrecy was planned to avoid the media and other onlookers. The empty casket was brought in the frontdoor while the casket carrying Kennedy's body was driven in a 1958 Chevrolet hearse to the back of the hospital where medical officials were to perform an autopsy:

"It was about 4:30 p.m., when our chief petty officer came to me and about five other petty officers and told us to go to the back of the hospital. I'm talking about the loading ramps where they used to bring in supplies.

"He told all of us that we were going to be there and we were going to bring the President's casket into the mortuary. We were told not to leave our posts.

"The chief said we got all the … ghouls and reporters and the TV and everybody at the front of the hospital. He said there would be an empty casket in the ambulance. He said the President's body would really come in the back.

"This made sense to me. I felt there was nothing wrong with this. I just bought it, as did the rest of us."

Rebentisch said he and five other officers took the President's casket out of the black hearse and pushed it through a rear freight entrance, 35 or 40 minutes before another coffin was taken through a mass of reporters and photographers at the front door. "Rebentisch said he doubted most of Lifton's claims." (The Associated Press, January 23, 1981, AM Cycle) Robert Muma, who was a Bethesda staff dental technician, corroborated Rebentisch's account:

"There were two ambulances that came in. One was lighted. It came up to the front door. The second one they kept dark and it went around to the back. That was the one that had Kennedy in it. It was common knowledge that there were two caskets." (The Associated Press, January 23, 1981, AM Cycle)

Another of Rebentisch's associates, Paul Neigler, also corroborated the former petty officer's story. (United Press International, January 24, 1981, AM cycle)
[end quote]


The report of Marine Sgt. Roger Boyajian does not say that the casket he and his men picked up on the evening of November 22, 1963, contained the body of President Kennedy. Asked during a telephone interview for the ARRB "if he remembered the arrival of the President's casket" he said "no." (ARRB MD236)

[Albert Doyle]

Paul O' Connor told Andy Purdy that the "pink shipping casket..arrived approximately eight o'clock." (ARRB MD64) He said the same thing to David Lifton (Best Evidence, paperback edition, p. 695), to Roger Feinman (Between the Signal and the Noise, chapter 6), and William Matson Law (In the Eye of History, p. 35).

Dennis David said in a telephone interview for the ARRB that he witnessed the arrival of a "gray shipping casket" at about 6:45 pm. He did not see the casket opened. (ARRB MD177)

Roger Feinman writes about Donald Rebentisch in chapter 6 of Between the Signal and the Noise:



For Donald Rebentisch, a petty officer who was stationed at Bethesda on the night of the autopsy, there was no big secret. Rebentisch was studying dental and medical equipment repair at the hospital at the time. According to Rebentisch, two ambulances carrying two caskets were employed one of them empty and one with the body of Kennedy in a deliberate charade to slip the President's body into Bethesda Naval Hospital. Rebentisch says his commanding officers told him the secrecy was planned to avoid the media and other onlookers. The empty casket was brought in the frontdoor while the casket carrying Kennedy's body was driven in a 1958 Chevrolet hearse to the back of the hospital where medical officials were to perform an autopsy:

"It was about 4:30 p.m., when our chief petty officer came to me and about five other petty officers and told us to go to the back of the hospital. I'm talking about the loading ramps where they used to bring in supplies.

"He told all of us that we were going to be there and we were going to bring the President's casket into the mortuary. We were told not to leave our posts.

"The chief said we got all the … ghouls and reporters and the TV and everybody at the front of the hospital. He said there would be an empty casket in the ambulance. He said the President's body would really come in the back.

"This made sense to me. I felt there was nothing wrong with this. I just bought it, as did the rest of us."

Rebentisch said he and five other officers took the President's casket out of the black hearse and pushed it through a rear freight entrance, 35 or 40 minutes before another coffin was taken through a mass of reporters and photographers at the front door. "Rebentisch said he doubted most of Lifton's claims." (The Associated Press, January 23, 1981, AM Cycle) Robert Muma, who was a Bethesda staff dental technician, corroborated Rebentisch's account:

"There were two ambulances that came in. One was lighted. It came up to the front door. The second one they kept dark and it went around to the back. That was the one that had Kennedy in it. It was common knowledge that there were two caskets." (The Associated Press, January 23, 1981, AM Cycle)

Another of Rebentisch's associates, Paul Neigler, also corroborated the former petty officer's story. (United Press International, January 24, 1981, AM cycle)
[end quote]


The report of Marine Sgt. Roger Boyajian does not say that the casket he and his men picked up on the evening of November 22, 1963, contained the body of President Kennedy. Asked during a telephone interview for the ARRB "if he remembered the arrival of the President's casket" he said "no." (ARRB MD236)

Which, if the overall already-known covert conspiratorial template of the assassination is applied, does nothing to preclude the wound-altering pre-autopsy. In my opinion it would be incredibly naive to accept the media-avoidance story on its face. Notice how there was no corroboration of this story afterwards from other sources. If it was that simple why didn't they just come forward with it officially and finish Lifton? Besides, this still doesn't answer the questions about Pitzer's film frames which are the bigger picture, related evidence that puts the pre-autopsy in context. Horne is still very much alive after this I'm afraid.

It's at times like this that I miss Charles...

[Albert Doyle]

Its always seemed ironic to me that the people who talk glibly of high level plots (e.g., DiEugenio and his pals) reject the most important evidence pertaining to exactly that: the alteration of the President's body prior to autopsy.

Being able to address the thoughts of assassination heavyweights is not a small privilege so I tread carefully and respectfully. While I also agree there's a bizarre paradox between some of the finest researchers missing 'gimme's' like Mary Meyer, Pitzer, and the pre-autopsy I must express that that paradox extends to those who miss the obvious concerning Priscilla Johnson McMillan as well. In my opinion the key to proving the pre-autopsy is Commander Pitzer's witnessing of it through his film evidence that Dennis David witnessed.

[Albert Rossi]

For Donald Rebentisch, a petty officer who was stationed at Bethesda on the night of the autopsy, there was no big secret. Rebentisch was studying dental and medical equipment repair at the hospital at the time. According to Rebentisch, two ambulances carrying two caskets were employed one of them empty and one with the body of Kennedy in a deliberate charade to slip the President's body into Bethesda Naval Hospital. Rebentisch says his commanding officers told him the secrecy was planned to avoid the media and other onlookers. The empty casket was brought in the front door while the casket carrying Kennedy's body was driven in a 1958 Chevrolet hearse to the back of the hospital where medical officials were to perform an autopsy:

Apart from the issue of a casket "brought in the front door" (certainly not what Sibert & O'Neill state), the problem with Rebentisch's version, as I see it, then becomes when the casket with JFK's body was put into the black hearse, Chevrolet or Cadillac or whatever. We have the film of the transfer from Air Force One to the Navy ambulance. Either that casket was already empty, or somewhere along the line it got switched from Jackie & RFK's ambulance to the hearse (which I don't know we have any evidence for). I don't think Rebentisch's statements help clear up exactly how this supposed security measure was effected.

[Gordon Gray]

For Donald Rebentisch, a petty officer who was stationed at Bethesda on the night of the autopsy, there was no big secret. Rebentisch was studying dental and medical equipment repair at the hospital at the time. According to Rebentisch, two ambulances carrying two caskets were employed one of them empty and one with the body of Kennedy in a deliberate charade to slip the President's body into Bethesda Naval Hospital. Rebentisch says his commanding officers told him the secrecy was planned to avoid the media and other onlookers. The empty casket was brought in the front door while the casket carrying Kennedy's body was driven in a 1958 Chevrolet hearse to the back of the hospital where medical officials were to perform an autopsy:

Apart from the issue of a casket "brought in the front door" (certainly not what Sibert & O'Neill state), the problem with Rebentisch's version, as I see it, then becomes when the casket with JFK's body was put into the black hearse, Chevrolet or Cadillac or whatever. We have the film of the transfer from Air Force One to the Navy ambulance. Either that casket was already empty, or somewhere along the line it got switched from Jackie & RFK's ambulance to the hearse (which I don't know we have any evidence for). I don't think Rebentisch's statements help clear up exactly how this supposed security measure was effected.

I have no idea if Rebentisch's story is accurate, but it seems credible. If it is the case, why would it not be reasonable to assume the placement of the body in a different casket was cleared by Bobby or someone else in the Kennedy family. In which case it could happened on Air Force I once it had landed at Andrews. I've have been on that plane and there is a door on the left side of he galley where the coffin was kept during it's flight from Dallas, and it could easily have been unloaded from that door, on the far side of the plane, away from the cameras, and helicoptered to Besthesda.