Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis

[Magda Hassan]

It is not the gulf war and Iraq. It is Israel and the dispossession of the Palestinians which is at the heart of all of this. Everything else follows on from that.

[Phil Dragoo]

What we've been told has been false. Leaders of NIST less than forthright and should be investigated. Here is a thirty-minute overview:



A couple of inches of sag is not forty inches.

Phil's footnote:

Here's a parallel between NIST animation and CIA animation of TWA 800--a cartoon presenting a single bullet theory, support of official propaganda

In my view there is ample evidence of a false-flag Northwoods-like casus belli

The careful outline of Mr. Szamboti is akin to Gerald Knight in Breach of Trust: How the Warren Commission Failed the Nation and Why

As Peter Dale Scott pointed out, the 9/11 Commission was a cover up

John O'Neill was FBI Counterterrorism chief, warned such an attack was imminent, was sabotaged and sidelined

I like Mr. Szamboti's signal to noise ratio

Magda

How do you relate your sense of the motives behind the collapse to Scott's new paper which I believe you posted in another thread

It certainly rocketed TSA to power and led to two decade long wars for arms and drug profit as well as to remain on-station for monitoring oil monopoly

Saudi interference is a useful concept for deciphering; OBL was involved in his family's construction--no doubt the whole family was saavy in demolition

"It appears to be a controlled demolition of the upper section"--did he just say that (!)

Unable to provide an explanation for total collapse--though that was their congressional tasking.

Six inch sag in an hour--not forty inches--and didn't account for bridge truss removal in test

This doesn't sound like an easily debunked analyst

98.5% of steel did not experience temperatures high enough to effect strength--

--but wait, that's the whole government case.

Can the government be that stupid--or is it dishonest.

Looking at the Warren Commission and the 9/11 Commission there is not much to choose.

It didn't happen that way and they know it.

But in each case they got a war out of it

Did they let it happen or make it happen or as Charles says yes

Sample size not big enough but the government's expert Gross determined the sample size--like having Cunningham say MC couldn't leave GSR but AEC Oak Ridge showing it did.

Orange yellow fluorescence is iron and steel not aluminum and organics

As Holmes remarked to Watson in The Adventure of the Three Garridebs, touch him where we will he is false; so it is with the NIST theory

Exterior of building comes down fully all sides same time

What we see on the real video is not a natural collapse

At 21:00 1978 rig of City Bank Tower in secret retrofit at night not made public until many years later--Ryan anybody?

Were there or were there not sheer studs--NIST waffles

FOIA request denied as it "might jeopardize public safety"--why are they hiding

Refusal to release computer input data

Rapid oxidation, sulfidation and intergranular melting due to eutectic added, chemical substance to cause steel to melt at lower temperature in piece from 7

No comment from NIST

Fraudulent and probably criminal

None of the other steel from 7 was saved for analysis--

Gross negligence

South tower fires small and easy to control minutes before collapse

Molten steel in rubble of all three buildings--firemen on video said running like lava in channelways below

Did not test for explosives

A hundred people heard explosions

(more like TWA 800 all the time)

I would like to see more from Mr. Szamboti; his work is very like that of Lane, Meagher, McKnight in deconstructing the false story of a government commission.

[Phil Dragoo]

http://www.journalof911studies.com/volum...Towers.pdf

Sustainability of Controlled Demolition Hypothesis For Destruction of Twin Towers

Tony Szamboti
Mechanical Engineer
February 17, 2008

Phil's note:

The pdf file opened readily for me and presented an orderly outline of anomalies which exclude the official explanation and observed phenomenon which suggest an entirely different mechanism caused collapse.

I would remind everyone absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and I find NIST and company to be completely Dulles you-have-nothing about the matter.

So, should someone pipe up and say there's no evidence of this or that, one might ask why no steel saved from 7, why no test for explosives, why denial of molten steel, and a series of like questions.

Amplification by this paper's author would be welcome here.

We're twelve years into this--after fifty the officials haven't come clean on the JFK assassination and there's no one suggesting he died of old age or natural causes.

Yet.

[Tony Szamboti]

All one has to read is this from Jeff Orling:

"Building 7 in many ways is the key to understanding that 9/11 was not an inside job"

9-11 was absolutely an inside job designed to carry out the Plan For A New American Century by our generation of the Kennedy killers.

That is precisely how I have come to view it.

Both situations were massive crimes used to change national policies, which would not have been changed otherwise.

Both were blamed on patsies who could not have accomplished the observations.

Both were covered up by powerful people who are/were very likely a part of the same group, with the same type of motivations now, as they were in 1963.

Of course, in both cases the cover-ups did not hold permanently and needed to be brute force protected by politics limiting re-investigations. Anyone protecting the now obvious cover-ups in both cases is fully deserving of any ridicule they might receive.

[Jeffrey Orling]

I don't think 9/11 changed politics. It was more a change in amplitude. It's not as if we had a working democracy and transparent government which was not in service to corprations and the empire agenda. The DOD has and had at the time all mnner of war plans ready to role out at any opportunity of excuse.

JFK appears to be quite different... more like a coup since it appears that JFK was trying to demilitarize the US, get out of Nam, rapproachment with the USSR and not interested in invading Cuba and giving to the Cuban facists who Castro toppled and of course can the CIA. He probably had plans to move foreward with civil rights too. All of this was a threat the NSS and the right wing fascists and they were not having it. Once JFK was out of the way the agenda moved forward, the religious right spread distraction and distracted the people with lifestyle issues... MLK and MalcomnX were offed to bust up the black movement... RFK was taken out so none of this would ever come to light. The cold war ran trillions to the defense industry, unions were destroyed, media was consolidated and neutered and empire moved into advance mode... which included plans for full spectrum dominance and control of or access to energy resources and blocking other nations from same.

Part and parcel with Empire is dealing with restless natives... who need to be put down at times and this is the perfect opportunity to advance the boundries of the Empire... excuse being to control the insurgencies at the borders (conceptually). Once the Empire is out and about the process is self sustaining... it feeds itself.

So 9/11 was an instance of empire in stimulus repsonse action and 9/11 was more like clearing the decks so empire could roll out its new world domination machine. The proxy wars with the USSR were a strategy to whittle it down and then go after the former client states and their resources. This is happening even as the Russian bear rises and tries to check Uncle Sam's march. Childish mentalities playing with the percs of power. That will never change.

[Jeffrey Orling]

Phil,

My sense, (and I could be and often am wrong) is that historical analysis can connect events which might not be directly cause and effect. It's like connecting the dots you want to create a structure that makes sense. Think of these analyses... conceptualy like hundreds of ink stops on a page... and then someone draws lines between certain dots and voila a picture is seen of a man, or maybe a dog... or bird and so forth. All of these images are in the collection of dots... you simply find the ones which make the picture you want. Maybe.

Historical events appear to be driven by several types of forces.. top down, bottom up and random "natural" ones. Top down are easily understood as those in power driving events for whatever motivation they have because they have the power to it... control of resources and people to do it for them (armies, workers, media etc.). Bottom up forces are mass movements of individuals or usually individuals with little individual power acting in concert... such as in revolutions or on a smaller scale - insurgencies or terrorism.. assymtrical struggles or growing mass movements (which also become top down structures as well). Bottom up is a response to top down pressure. When top is not opressing... bottom does not push back... like a piston at the top of the cylinder.

Natural events can put either or both top and bottom into react mode and change the nature of the control system one way or the other or may not.. just slow it or push things back a few steps

Clearly those with power are not interested in yielded it or playing by rules if they can get away with not playing by rules... and they can... and they do.

[Jeffrey Orling]

The same *group* has been around as long as there have been top down social and political structures. That group has various names...the king, the father, the elite, the top brass, the bord of directors (no confusion in how this group sees itself), or the benign *leadership*... the polit bureau.

This is the way society organizes and this is why abuse is endemic when an elite class exists (and it always does). The elites act to self preserve their franchise... the guard against those who seek to remove their power and priviledge and they use their power and privledge to enrich themselves and their circle of friends... who of course then protect the benefactor.

Democracy was / is the concept of empowering the masses and removing the power of the elite... of advancing the lot of the people not individuals. It's a concept of equality not of superiority as top down class structures are. But democracy works against the selfish and self protection need which is a basic biological attribute of survival. The most fit and strong survive and prosper.. the less are left to suffer and struggle and even be used by the strong. Democracy has not delivered on its promise despite being altered to fit human nature and efficiency.

All western democracies are examples of the power of corruption or the corruption of power. The behavior of the elite is hardly unexpected or unpredictable with respect to 9/11 or any historical event. The elite can push the chess pieces around the board rather easily and sometimes do. They can't help themselves from acting in their selfish interest and the interest of their class. it's would be like a trying to removed the stripes from a zebra. Ain't gonna happen.

Tony, do you think the "same group" would respond any differently to a terrorist attack? Do you think they wouuld not try to conceal their incompetence? Or protect their fellow elites.. or even use their position of access to intel to financially benefit?

Suppose in a thought experiment.. intel got wind of a plot to blow up 10 American Airline planes on the ground at airports around the world... You don't think for a minute they some of these bastards and their friends would go out and short American Airline stock and make a calculus that so few lives would be lost and so much money is to be made? Of course you might expect some in the service who naively believed these were serious organizations in place to protect democracy would have their hair on fire if they got wind of the intel... and of course the SOBs would suppress the intel, block any action and make a claim that there were system failures in communication... move on and let's get on with the program... Next move Shock And Awe.

Whistle blowers have revealed their naivete and that there are plenty inside who are partying with their power. And the powerful are making damn sure that nothing really changes and no one turns on the lights...or when they do... they shut the power down pretty damn quick.

Get real man... you sound terribly naive... like Gage and the other truther people.

[Jeffrey Orling]

.....

I would remind everyone absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and I find NIST and company to be completely Dulles you-have-nothing about the matter.

NIST was there in service to the elite privleged class... and had to run with a cover story which would not upset them. PERIOD.

[Charles Drago]

All one has to read is this from Jeff Orling:

"Building 7 in many ways is the key to understanding that 9/11 was not an inside job"

9-11 was absolutely an inside job designed to carry out the Plan For A New American Century by our generation of the Kennedy killers.

That is precisely how I have come to view it.

Both situations were massive crimes used to change national policies, which would not have been changed otherwise.

Both were blamed on patsies who could not have accomplished the observations.

Both were covered up by powerful people who are/were very likely a part of the same group, with the same type of motivations now, as they were in 1963.

Of course, in both cases the cover-ups did not hold permanently and needed to be brute force protected by politics limiting re-investigations. Anyone protecting the now obvious cover-ups in both cases is fully deserving of any ridicule they might receive.

Ridicule, if masterfully and appropriately applied, can be a powerful rhetorical weapon. For years I have ridiculed publicly -- and at times face-to-face -- proponents of the LN lies of the JFK, RFK, and MLK assassinations.

Alas, the more clever, better trained accessories after the facts to those murders and/or other deep political crimes too often gain safe public haven on sympathetic-to-the-truth Internet forums that forbid ridicule of their members on pain of banishment. All the accessories need do is profess some sort of simplistic belief in some sort of conspiracy, eschew rudeness toward fellow correspondents, and BINGO, they are free to spread sophisticated disinformation.

All the while, they enjoy the impassioned protection of tragically unsophisticated but otherwise honorable pursuers of truth for whom civility trumps truth.

This war in which we find ourselves was lost before it began.

[Albert Doyle]

PNAC simply explained that this is how they game works... No 9/11 was not an inside job. It was only a matter of time and perfectly predictable. Those who think not are terribly naive.

Big mistake Jeffrey. If you don't see how 9-11 was directly conducted by covert US plotters you are missing the most important aspect. They exposed themselves when the restrained female FBI agent Coleen Rowley from looking in to Moussaoui.

Read Peter Lance's book 'Cover-Up'. In it he more than shows US intel was fully aware of the Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Ramsey Yousef, Bin Laden airliner terrorist underground all the way back to 1994 with their Operation Bojinka. It is obvious the PNAC plotters used this underground to their advantage on 9-11 in order to create a false flag attack that would justify the War On Terror.

Yes, it was terribly predictable. To the point of being guide-able as well.