Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis

[Jeffrey Orling]

Correct... but not the one the truth movement is pushing.

Would you elaborate on your non CD conception of the inside job?

Simple. Covert members that seep out of the alphabet agencies and military practice a deeper form of black arts beyond those of those agencies. What is hidden beyond the hidden is what is especially evilly pure and dangerous. These men are of the Dulles persuasion and see themselves as gods using the world as a canvas. These people are supported by the usual sponsors who comprise the private sector version of the same. I've already explained that Peter Lance has detailed US being totally aware of the Bin Laden/Khalid Sheikh Mohammed airline terrorist underground back in 1994. When Clinton was deposed these persons saw an opening with a totally Republican government. If you look at American history this Republican fascist force killed JFK and started the VietNam War; waited for CIA Director Bush to be in power for the Gulf War; and finally got his son behind an all-out PNAC government hunting oil and power. These people knew the Bin Laden/KSM group was looking for a shot so they simply guided it in a covert form of plausible deniability. They almost got exposed because of a diligent cockpit training facility employee with Moussaoui but some quick stand-down orders took care of that only weeks before the attack.

I believe the unique structure of the Towers combined with the unprecedented flying of wide body commercial jets into skyscrapers caused an exceptional situation where the buildings collapsed on their own. When some say no steel frame building ever collapsed from fire they are ignoring this situation. The buildings they are referring to are classic buildings with frameworks throughout the structure that had common fires. The 9-11 fires were unusual crash damage fires in buildings with a fatal structural flaw stoked by high winds.

The plot is much simpler than you allow.

This sounds to me like what is called LIHOP and very much the way I presently conceive of what happened from JFK forward.

I think the nasties establish themselves within the NSS for the purpose of covertly as well as overtly pushing the world hegemony agenda... of course personal wealth a la nepotism and corrupt practices... drugs, weapons and so forth. It's all good on the inside and the revolving door is so much fun!

[Albert Doyle]

So now you want to say a vertical drop of the core caused a large side to side motion that fractured perimeter connections. How did the core drop and why would it cause a large horizontal motion?

If I may interject the South Tower experienced a massive force impacting it in the form of the fuel tonnage contained in the left wing of Flight 175. This mass was transferred through the structure by the sheer momentum of the impact. This is evidenced by the mass exiting the opposite side of the building. While the inner column is designed for vertical strength it is not designed for such a crippling lateral force. The right side of the core and right side of the tower were weakened to the point of eventual structural collapse. The core probably collapsed because the unsupported void of the floor pads was enough of a weakness to cause progressive lateral stress on the core frame beyond its design tolerance.

Additionally, if the perimeter connections were so susceptible to horizontal motion the wind resistance of the design would not have been nearly what the designers purported it to be.

We're not talking wind here we're talking the massive force of the collapse of the top section along with all the other particular lateral dynamics associated with floor pad collapse.

The chief engineer John Skilling is on record explaining to authors Glanz and Lipton

The Vierendeel trusses would be so effective, according to the engineers' calculations, that all the columns on one side of a tower could be cut, as well as the two corners and several columns on the adjacent sides, and the tower would still be strong enough to withstand a 100-mile-per-hour wind. --City in the Sky, p 133

He forgot the wind-fanned fire. Something was creating the smoke being blown from the Towers and red hot molten metal seen in the videos. That steel had to be above 250 degrees. Again, you can only reference the particular conditions existing in the damaged section at the time. Intact building specs and wind resistance are not really relevant since they are too far removed from the actual conditions in the damaged towers as they burned.

[Albert Doyle]

This sounds to me like what is called LIHOP and very much the way I presently conceive of what happened from JFK forward.

I think the nasties establish themselves within the NSS for the purpose of covertly as well as overtly pushing the world hegemony agenda... of course personal wealth a la nepotism and corrupt practices... drugs, weapons and so forth. It's all good on the inside and the revolving door is so much fun!

When you leave the gate open to the fortress on purpose that is MIHOP by any definition.

[Jeffrey Orling]

This sounds to me like what is called LIHOP and very much the way I presently conceive of what happened from JFK forward.

I think the nasties establish themselves within the NSS for the purpose of covertly as well as overtly pushing the world hegemony agenda... of course personal wealth a la nepotism and corrupt practices... drugs, weapons and so forth. It's all good on the inside and the revolving door is so much fun!

When you leave the gate open to the fortress on purpose that is MIHOP by any definition.

I think the confusion is what does the IT refer to? YES to the over all attack/event.. But NO to placing CD devices and destroying the towers. The IT to me is CD not the insider facilitating the attack.

[Malcolm Pryce]

Surely the LIHOP/MIHOP dichotomy is a sterile distraction. If you believe some of the perps were sitting in the Pentagon that morning, there can't be any such thing as LIHOP. They would have needed total control of every aspect of the operation. I mean, is Rumsfeld really going to sit in his office knowing there is a suicidal maniac in a hijacked plane heading that way, confident that the suicide pilot has promised to aim for that empty wedge at the back? The only way you could sit there would be if you knew there was no plane at all, but rather a totally reliable. precisely targeted missile.

[Lauren Johnson]

Surely the LIHOP/MIHOP dichotomy is a sterile distraction. If you believe some of the perps were sitting in the Pentagon that morning, there can't be any such thing as LIHOP. They would have needed total control of every aspect of the operation. I mean, is Rumsfeld really going to sit in his office knowing there is a suicidal maniac in a hijacked plane heading that way, confident that the suicide pilot has promised to aim for that empty wedge at the back? The only way you could sit there would be if you knew there was no plane at all, but rather a totally reliable. precisely targeted missile.

When I asked JO just who decided not to do anything, he said this:

I don't think one person made a single over arching decision which was then handed down and implemented by managers. A guess of course. My conception is that all those who are in top positions inside the NSS, intel and MIC subscribe to the same world view and they don't need to be told precisely what to do.

If you ask random senior military person you might encounter they will all share a similar conception of who the enemy is at any given time and how to fight and so forth. My suspicison is that the LIHOP means that there was intel that an attack was in the making... and this was seen as the oppportiunity to respond with overwhelming force and define the new enemy as a tangible real threat to the people of the US.

If a plot was thwarted the people would think...oh yea right... BS you guys made it up and are looking for a promotion or some such... so in order to ramp it up and get the next round of procurements going and a hot war and grab some oil a pretext was needed that would make this fly. No enemy no MIC and no procurement and downsizing and so forth... so those on the inside have a vested interest in seeing that there are enemies and credible ones... bombing a war ship in Yemen is hardly going to impact of the domestic population of the US.

The terrorists understood that they US loses all counter insurgencies and drains them... which is precisely what happened post 9/11. Once the empire tries to use their armies it always ends in a terrific loss to the empire and a waste of their treasure and eventually the people lose interest in supporting the adventurism. So they then resort to these little false flags to make sure people don't forget. But the empire is not growing it's bleeding not.

Who makes the decision to bomb civilians? or wedding parties? These sadists believe the are taking out the enemy and could care less... they are hired killers not paid to think or quesiton orders and policies. Once you get all these bots in place they do what bots do... what they are programmed to do. No thinking allowed.

In summary, nobody decided anything. JO expects us to believe ... well, what? LIHOP was supposed to bring about permanent war because the hive mind of the MIC, the DoD, the CIA, the neocons, etc. all think alike so that when some random person stumbles across a specific plot, that persons knows not to report it? And just why wouldn't these war hawks just go ahead and plan something? Seems a lot easier than waiting for some guy operating out of cave to get his act together.

From a meeting of some unnamed high officials:

Official #1: Intel has it that Osama is planning to hijack and crash some planes into the World Trade Center.
Official #2: No shit. That would be fantastic. We could start some wars, make them permanent, get the national security state ramped up.
Official #1: We've got all kinds of stuff for Bush to say. Some really great lines. We have some great legislation written up, too. It pretty much gets rid of the Bill of Rights.
Official #2 That sounds great. But ...
Official #1 But, what?
Official #2 What happens if bin Laden screws things up. Then where will we be?
Official #1 Oh, My God. Don't talk like that. Don't even think like that.
Official #2 How about another bourbon?
Official #1 Make it a double.

[Jeffrey Orling]

Surely the LIHOP/MIHOP dichotomy is a sterile distraction. If you believe some of the perps were sitting in the Pentagon that morning, there can't be any such thing as LIHOP. They would have needed total control of every aspect of the operation. I mean, is Rumsfeld really going to sit in his office knowing there is a suicidal maniac in a hijacked plane heading that way, confident that the suicide pilot has promised to aim for that empty wedge at the back? The only way you could sit there would be if you knew there was no plane at all, but rather a totally reliable. precisely targeted missile.

You don't know what he knew and when he knew it. How do you know he knew a suicidal maniac was or wasn't intending to anything?

Perhaps some of the events of the day were MIHOP and others not. Suppose the pentagon attack was intended to build on top of the WTC attack and to make sure that people understood it as an act of war... so the "insiders" attacked themselve and even did the PA thing to create a hero myth. The WTC might have been a real attack so to speak... that they expected... and the pentagon and the PA planes were staged by he insiders.

I think we are short on facts and long on speculation.

Malcolm do you think there was no plane in DC?

[Jeffrey Orling]

From a meeting of some unnamed high officials:

Official #1: Intel has it that Osama is planning to hijack and crash some planes into the World Trade Center.
Official #2: No shit. That would be fantastic. We could start some wars, make them permanent, get the national security state ramped up.
Official #1: We've got all kinds of stuff for Bush to say. Some really great lines. We have some great legislation written up, too. It pretty much gets rid of the Bill of Rights.
Official #2 That sounds great. But ...
Official #1 But, what?
Official #2 What happens if bin Laden screws things up. Then where will we be?
.....

Why not? Sounds about right... Why high officials? Unless their is a single person at the top of a structure, decisions on action and policy involve multiple people. But why not a hive mentality as you call it? Seems like that describes the mind set of the people inside the NSS. You wouldn't expect to find hippes among them would you?

[Lauren Johnson]

Perhaps some of the events of the day were MIHOP and others not. Suppose the pentagon attack was intended to build on top of the WTC attack and to make sure that people understood it as an act of war... so the "insiders" attacked themselve and even did the PA thing to create a hero myth. The WTC might have been a real attack so to speak... that they expected... and the pentagon and the PA planes were staged by he insiders.

And that would an inside job. You finally admitted it.

[Jeffrey Orling]

I didn't admit anything. I offered a theory to explain what might have happened in DC and PA... I don't think we have enough solid evidence about 9/11 to admit anything other than how it was used to change domestic and foreign policy. These outcome were predictable considering the people in the admin, MIC, NSS and so forth. The question of whether they were the conspirators because they wanted that outcome is not.