Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis

[Jeffrey Orling]

Surely the LIHOP/MIHOP dichotomy is a sterile distraction. If you believe some of the perps were sitting in the Pentagon that morning, there can't be any such thing as LIHOP. They would have needed total control of every aspect of the operation. I mean, is Rumsfeld really going to sit in his office knowing there is a suicidal maniac in a hijacked plane heading that way, confident that the suicide pilot has promised to aim for that empty wedge at the back? The only way you could sit there would be if you knew there was no plane at all, but rather a totally reliable. precisely targeted missile.

You don't know what he knew and when he knew it. How do you know he knew a suicidal maniac was or wasn't intending to anything?

Perhaps some of the events of the day were MIHOP and others not. Suppose the pentagon attack was intended to build on top of the WTC attack and to make sure that people understood it as an act of war... so the "insiders" attacked themselve and even did the PA thing to create a hero myth. The WTC might have been a real attack so to speak... that they expected... and the pentagon and the PA planes were staged by he insiders.

I think we are short on facts and long on speculation.

Malcolm do you think there was no plane in DC?

[Jeffrey Orling]

From a meeting of some unnamed high officials:

Official #1: Intel has it that Osama is planning to hijack and crash some planes into the World Trade Center.
Official #2: No shit. That would be fantastic. We could start some wars, make them permanent, get the national security state ramped up.
Official #1: We've got all kinds of stuff for Bush to say. Some really great lines. We have some great legislation written up, too. It pretty much gets rid of the Bill of Rights.
Official #2 That sounds great. But ...
Official #1 But, what?
Official #2 What happens if bin Laden screws things up. Then where will we be?
.....

Why not? Sounds about right... Why high officials? Unless their is a single person at the top of a structure, decisions on action and policy involve multiple people. But why not a hive mentality as you call it? Seems like that describes the mind set of the people inside the NSS. You wouldn't expect to find hippes among them would you?

[Lauren Johnson]

Perhaps some of the events of the day were MIHOP and others not. Suppose the pentagon attack was intended to build on top of the WTC attack and to make sure that people understood it as an act of war... so the "insiders" attacked themselve and even did the PA thing to create a hero myth. The WTC might have been a real attack so to speak... that they expected... and the pentagon and the PA planes were staged by he insiders.

And that would an inside job. You finally admitted it.

[Jeffrey Orling]

I didn't admit anything. I offered a theory to explain what might have happened in DC and PA... I don't think we have enough solid evidence about 9/11 to admit anything other than how it was used to change domestic and foreign policy. These outcome were predictable considering the people in the admin, MIC, NSS and so forth. The question of whether they were the conspirators because they wanted that outcome is not.

[Phil Dragoo]

In Orwell we see the type of doublethink which allows one to not be influenced by his distrust of his government.

(will the veiled sister pray over the split infinitive)

Tony, in your 101 above you write:

Of course, Jeffrey simply says something along the lines he said to you here

I think you are neither familiar with the design nor understanding where the possible failures may have been. First, there were no columns which were melted or even heated hot enough to bend them. Heat weakens steel and if it weakens it below the service load it buckles and bends from BUCKLING not from plastic deformation. Second the failures in the frame were more likely the CONNECTIONS and they were not as strong as the sections themselves.

and I have asked him many times on other forums to explain how the rapid constant acceleration through the first story would be possible with heat weakening caused buckling of columns or the column connections breaking. He just goes into a "we can't see inside" mode and never tries to provide a technically plausible explanation. I have to believe that is because there isn't one, but that doesn't give him reason to pause and possibly re-evaluate his position. No, he keeps on repeating the same unsupported points about heat weakening being the cause. Bottom line is Jeffrey can't explain the details of the collapse in natural cause terms, but he will tell you he is sure it was a naturally caused event due to the effects of impact damage and fire with a poor design (he never explains the poor design either), and that those with the motive to take advantage of the event (the oil cabal with operatives like Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld etc.) just waited for it to happen. Given the natural cause problems and the aftermath, that position is at the very least naïve in the most extreme sense, and all of the time Jeffrey seems to have to post long winded replies all over the Internet on this issue (he is on several 911 related forums) along with his problems with NYC CAN and AE911Truth make me wonder about his motives.

In Chomsky we see one insisting a conspiracy was impossible, and that it presupposes a marked departure by Kennedy.

We here in DPF understand that there was/is a conspiracy, and that Kennedy was a marked departure.

In my view Tony has cogently stated the impossibility of the official explanation, and the repeated denial of intentional agency in the collapse by the prolific poster.

Could we save bandwidth by, instead of saying some variation of "I don't see anyone making it happen" simply typing "ibid" or "see above" or "ditto."

And all this pasting entire posts simply to add a line or a paragraph--all the bytes over the Niagara in vain.

With Dallas we have a crossfire resulting from a conspiracy resulting in a coverup and an effective coup.

It put the security state in firm control, publicly, dramatically, inyourfacedly.

Now comes another "tragedy" and another "commission" and another "explanation" and the bodyguard is the ubiquitous Mr. Nothing-To-See-Here.

Not since the mimeograph has technology had such a smell, that perfume from the principal's office announcing another school fair with a goldfish toss.

Tony, you're on the verge of saying a contrived initiation regarding columnar collapse.

I suggest it's not so impossible.

Consider a replication of the 1978 midnight elevator shaft activity utilizing state of the art nanothermite and wireless detonators.

We have a loitering E4.

And molten steel.

Business is business.

JFK could not leave the Plaza. The towers could not remain standing.

The show (war) must go on.

Or we go to sleep to the lullaby of the Chomsky symphony of no conspiracy.

Fireman! Put out the fire on XYZ Forum! Stat!

Brass poles, black holes, and on to Damascus

[Jeffrey Orling]

I love the way Phil does his posts. Honestly I do.

[Lauren Johnson]

I love the way Phil does his posts. Honestly I do.

I loved this as much if not more than you, Mr. Jeffrey.

In my view Tony has cogently stated the impossibility of the official explanation, and the repeated denial of intentional agency in the collapse by the prolific poster.

But now you have taken it to the point of some intentional agency without intentional agency. It's LIHOP without anyone deciding anything except for maybe the hive mind just knows what to decide except for when somebody decides to take advantage of what was never decided by anybody except by everyone. It was never an inside job but some insiders may have done something on purpose but who knows.

Perhaps some of the events of the day were MIHOP and others not.

BTW, your posts are the way disinfo's work. I continue to not find the manual how to be a disinfo; it gets posted here every once in a while.

[Jeffrey Orling]

Perhaps some of the events of the day were MIHOP and others not.

BTW, your posts are the way disinfo's work. I continue to not find the manual how to be a disinfo; it gets posted here every once in a while.

Lauren,

You really have to disabuse yourself of the idea that I am a dis info agent. I simply express what I think, what I have learned and so forth. It's really laughable because it is so absurd. You might claim that what I write amounts to information or idea which confuse. And that may be true. But there is no intent. I simply am expressing my viewpoint. And I have stated on any number of occasions that my thinking is constantly evolving... though my general political position is left.. decidedly anti fascist and anti capitalist. As far as the WTC collapses my own study leads me to believe that they could collapse as we saw without placed devices. They also could have been devices placed to do what I think the heat did. Why not? I simply do not see the evidence of these and so absent that I go with the heat being what weakened the structures.... the proxinate cause of the collapse... along with the mechanical damage from the planes in the cases of the twin towers. Seven was a very different design and it lost the strength at the bottom.

My posts are the way I think and the sloppy way I write. Take it or leave it.. but don't be a science denier.

[Lauren Johnson]

Perhaps some of the events of the day were MIHOP and others not.

BTW, your posts are the way disinfo's work. I continue to not find the manual how to be a disinfo; it gets posted here every once in a while.

Lauren,

You really have to disabuse yourself of the idea that I am a dis info agent. I simply express what I think, what I have learned and so forth. It's really laughable because it is so absurd. You might claim that what I write amounts to information or idea which confuse. And that may be true. But there is no intent. I simply am expressing my viewpoint. And I have stated on any number of occasions that my thinking is constantly evolving... though my general political position is left.. decidedly anti fascist and anti capitalist. As far as the WTC collapses my own study leads me to believe that they could collapse as we saw without placed devices. They also could have been devices placed to do what I think the heat did. Why not? I simply do not see the evidence of these and so absent that I go with the heat being what weakened the structures.... the proxinate cause of the collapse... along with the mechanical damage from the planes in the cases of the twin towers. Seven was a very different design and it lost the strength at the bottom.

My posts are the way I think and the sloppy way I write. Take it or leave it.. but don't be a science denier.

Jeffrey, I said you work like a disinfo, I did not say were one. A fair number of people think you are. But I have been trying to point out your shifting positions. You drop one and take up another sometimes in contradiction. Even now, you shift the subject from LIHOP/MIHOP to bldg 7 and then amazingly chide me for being a science denier.

My posts are the way I think and the sloppy way I write.

Of course, you might not be a disinfo. You might also just be a sloppy thinker. I don't expect to convince you of anything; I never have -- not once. No one has here at DPF.

[Jeffrey Orling]

Lauren,

Like is not is and so what I write or do may appear to like X, Y or Z but it be just a project and an illusion.

I dont know about the official rule book for dis info agents. I suppose the concept makes sense if one uses the anlogy of information overload and not all of it is worth a damn. If one is trying to make sure no one can figure something out sewing confusion would sure help.

I am not trying to do anything of the sort though in the greater context of the debate everything is considered... ain't it? My thinking shifts and evolves and I am OK with that because long ago I realized we are data starved with respect to 9/11... and we may never get enough to reach reliable conclusions. I've always been more concerned with the technical aspects of the collapses... as I knew the MIC/NSS etc. engage in disgusting behavior. I was made aware of this as young teen when JFK was shot and I went to a Mark Lane lecture because it was way too coincidental that LHO was shot and on live TV. My horror terned to curiosity and my innocense was gone. This coup has been running the agenda since then. Of this I am certain. But... they do not run every act or event in the world. This is not the Truman show... entirely.