Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis

[Albert Doyle]

I did not say the dust and debris coming out of the 98th floor was due to charges, of course that is from the collapse. You are trying to put words in my mouth. What is wrong with you?

However, the focused jets on the corner as shown in this video are not from the collapse http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSApOavkHg8

I have answered your points, unless you are talking about some hidden little item in one of your cramped paragraphs. You and Jeffrey are similar in the sense that both of you could use some work on your writing styles and comprehension.

You can't get away with that. If the devices used to bring down the upper section were not explosive then what were they, thermite? Phil's a great poet but I'd like to see him describe how those thermite charges escaped destruction after being exposed to the furnace heat of the fires at the top? CDer's avoid this by simply saying the fuel fires only lasted 10 minutes. Truth is those people have no clue what kind of fuel pockets existed in the tower. Also, there was a scientific "furnace effect" caused by the 23mph wind blowing through the funneled opening in the tower. You can't ignore the serious fires evidenced by the black smoke coming off the tower (coincidentally the same color as a jet fuel fire). The floor trusses had thin steel 'wire' supports that were vulnerable to this heat. I have yet to see any analysis that calculates the wind-stoked furnace effect and its influence on the heat conditions. Also, the core was damaged and was more vulnerable to heat while the surviving members were under extreme stress from load shift lowering their heat tolerance threshold. This is the proper dynamic that existed on the scene and not the piecemeal textbook theories you are putting together to avoid the real arguments here. You answer with indignant protest but use that as a shield to avoid answering the entire argument that is being made.

If the collapse were initiated by placed thermite charges at the 98th floor how did they activate only one floor's worth of devices? How did those devices escape destruction from the extreme heat of the fires centered at the 96th floor? Has anyone studied the ignition threshold for thermite vs those fires or do you guys just wing it as it goes? Are you saying that the plotters placed explosives charges in extremely sophisticated timing in order to ripple down the building right in front of the collapse in the lower section, but only placed thermite cutter charges in the upper section in order to initiate the collapse? Those guys were good because they set off the lower level explosives packs in precise timing with the collapse, so much so that there was no discernable gap in the demolition to indicate this cross-over. Pretty damned good. Too good.

You fail to understand that focused jets in the corners is a sign of natural pneumatic collapse rather than explosives. If you posit that the core was rigged then there couldn't be any explosions in the corners because their source would be too close to the facade to not register an explosive signature, blast pattern, and detonation flash. Ask CD experts to look at your corner 'explosions' and tell us if they were explosives-based. The dust jets too. Those jets are clearly pneumatic in all aspects yet we are forced to listen to your claims that they are caused by explosives.

Now we will wait for your answer that will show indignation and try to respond to a very complex series of forensic factors by focusing on one contrived out of context example while not answering the majority of what is being argued. You never answered why they did the South Tower first if they were trying to imitate natural collapse?

You let David Chandler narrate the video as he goes along but don't call him on his mistakes. For instance he says the floor jets don't happen in a progressive manner but happen over multi floors at once. Bullshit. That cascading pneumatic blasting clearly happens in a floor by floor downward sequence. You can hear that Chandler is aware of this so he adds "I can't think of any other explanation". - I can. What you seeing there is precisely what you would see with ROOSD (and he knows it).

Also, I've looked at the video and don't really see any specific corner jets. I think some loose murder is being attempted here.

[Keith Millea]

This reads to me like everyone is gullible and full of shit,except for me,Jeffery.

But,talk is cheap as they say......

Hardly... it reads as if people including Jeffrey see the world though a chosen filter. Sure I can post on a forum... but I have spend hundreds if not thousands of hours in looking at the wtc and producing slides and so forth...

So Keith... what did YOU do to inform your understanding of the destruction of the WTC?

unfortunately, the proverbial "average Joe" is stuck in the middle.

I'm the average Joe stuck in the middle.I just have a huge problem with your complete arrogance and the way you treat my friends on this forum.This alone turns me off to your personal "theory".But,hey,I'm just your average Joe nobody,eh?

[Lauren Johnson]

Before I continue, just a couple of things I gotta get out of my system:

About five years ago, I was talking with a retired fire fighter. I finally asked about 9/11 and if he thought there were explosives in the buildings. He said, I don't want to talk about it. It's too personal. But on that day, those buildings were meant to come down.

And then from firefighter radio communications and in particular from Chief Orio Palmer a few minutes before their deaths:

Battalion 7 Chief: Battalion Seven ... Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-40 Code Ones.
...
Ladder 15: Floor 78?

Battalion 7 Chief: Ten-four, numerous civilians, we gonna need two engines up here.
...
Battalion 7 Chief: I'm going to need two of your firefighters Adam, stairway to knock down two fires. We have house line stretched we could use some water on it, knock it down, kay.

They were a few hours from having those fires out and rescuing many people.

OK, time to continue.

[Jeffrey Orling]

I don't treat your friends any differently than they treat me perhaps. I come here with no opinions about anyone. Peter Lemkin attacked me rather visciously in the beginning and he was quite irrational and wrong... basically accusing me of not being who I was... then did some googling and accused me of being a dis info agent and went on from there. Fetzer who was here at this forum way before me was pretty insultiung as well.

I consider myself an average Joe but with a slight advantage in some technical matters...being that I am an architect. I've also taken a very independent stance on most things... I don't belong to any group... but I obviously will share some of the wisdom of many groups... including those here.

I was aware during the JFK thing, attened Mark Lane lectures, I think I bought and read his first book, listened to Mae Brussel and pretty much believed that it was a coup. I did not become a researcher or follow developments over the years... but occasionally get myself into following some of the JFK researcher's work.

I came across PDS actually was sitting behind or next to him at some 9/11 event and found his talk interesting in its details but not surpised to learn what was going on behind the curtain... it all makes sense as the coup which took over but left the veneer of the old democracy in place. It's fooled 99.999% of the people even as they see one democratic institution after the next fall. And no one is doing a thing about it.

Of course, there are some whistle blowers who are trying.. Wkileaks, Manning, Aaron Swartz, Barret Brown, Ed Snowdon, Linda Poitras and Glenn Greenwald and to a lesser extent people who take barbs at the machine but temper (censor?) their message so that they can even continue to be heard. I think debate is healthy and I don't care for the black or white thing andsee the world in shades of gray with much complexity and layers of forces moving within. I wouldn't dismiss Chomsky as a tool of the NWO nor Amy Goodman... nor Michael Moore. All of them play a role in educating people about how the world is working.

I don't insult people unless pushed... I do disagree and nothing wrong with that. But I can't say the same for some of your friends here Keith....they've been pretty dismissive and insulting and scolding to me... Duly noted.

I try to avoid the political debate because it's way more nuanced and complex and does not include hard evidence and so forth. But I am as anti fascist as anyone in my beliefs.

[Jeffrey Orling]

Before I continue, just a couple of things I gotta get out of my system:

About five years ago, I was talking with a retired fire fighter. I finally asked about 9/11 and if he thought there were explosives in the buildings. He said, I don't want to talk about it. It's too personal. But on that day, those buildings were meant to come down.

And then from firefighter radio communications and in particular from Chief Orio Palmer a few minutes before their deaths:

[QUOTE]Battalion 7 Chief: Battalion Seven ... Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-40 Code Ones.
...
Ladder 15: Floor 78?

Battalion 7 Chief: Ten-four, numerous civilians, we gonna need two engines up here.
...
Battalion 7 Chief: I'm going to need two of your firefighters Adam, stairway to knock down two fires. We have house line stretched we could use some water on it, knock it down, kay.

They were a few hours from having those fires out and rescuing many people.

OK, time to continue.[/QUOTE]

Lauren,

One fireman at a single location could not possibly see or understand the full extent of the challenge to put out the fires.

Look at continuous footage of the towers... Do you see a time when there was not extensive smoke pouring from the towers? How can anyone say that they could be thee out with 2 fire fighters... Could this be a local fire? Why not? Fires started and spread throughout the tower for multiple reasons. The fire fighters were NOT where the strike zone fires raged. If you want to believe that the quote means so... you are simply deluding yourself.

Have you looked at this:

http://www.debunking911.com/fire.htm

maybe, maybe not...

[Jan Klimkowski]

This thread was supposed to be about misunderstanding about 9/11 related to collapse analysis.

Dulles, JFK and Sibel Edmonds had nothing to add to this discussion but represent forces and interesting pieces of the puzzle to how things work... sort of the meta understanding.

Jeffrey - given that you think nothing of presenting your ill-informed and historically incorrect definitions of matters such as false flag and Gladio in thread after thread, that's a pretty brazen statement.

[Albert Doyle]

The fuel capacity of a Boeing 767 is 24,000 gallons. At 6.8lbs per gallon that would be around 81 tons of fuel hitting the tower at hundreds of miles per hour. The fuel load was probably less than that because they didn't need to fill the tanks to go to LA.

[Jeffrey Orling]

Jeffrey - given that you think nothing of presenting your ill-informed and historically incorrect definitions of matters such as false flag and Gladio in thread after thread, that's a pretty brazen statement.

That is according to you. I'm guessing that you weren't there when the history you allege to know unfolded. You are subscribing to the tale as told by whomever has convinced you they know what happened. It's always like that about history... You don't know it unless you were right there.

I know of Gladio from what I read... and unless and until I read something else... my thinking will not change. However, I am always open to new information. If you think you are not looking at history through some filter you are deluding yourself.

And I stand by that brazen statement.

I am expecting that you'll say something like....(guess just an example) Snowdon is an agent of the CIA or deep state and not a whistle blower at all. While this could be true... and it could be false... the point is anyone who isn't right there can't possibly know. It's only a narrative that you have chosen to believe AS true.

I choose to believe the narrative which seems correct to me.

And I stand by that brazen statement or should I just follow you because you declare you are correct?

[Peter Lemkin]

Who'd have suspected that Mt. Vernon [where I often played long ago in the forests and on the rocks with my cousin Mark] would host such a strange being, persistent in his theory of one [lone-nut] version of how the WTC towers [2 not 3] collapsed via some zipper [not YKK] manner. Yet no national nor international body has altered the fire nor the building codes for steel frame buildings. Even NIST doesn't ask him to speak. No one, but he [as far as I know], is a devotee of his theory and genuflects to it.... yet we are hourly and daily given it redux.....

Might this person just be trying to spin our wheels, make us look like we are not considering all likelihoods, too rash in our judgements....might he be a Sunsteinian troll? I can't prove it...but I have a gut reaction that says....maybe, baby. Others long ago would have abandoned this Forum given the negative general reception this person has received here..but he persists....is it personal tenacity or a 'job'?

Long ago, and many times, I gave referenced multiple reasons why this person's 'zipper' theory doesn't comport either with the evidence or with the PHYSICICAL laws of the universe....but that means little when controlling the hearts and minds of the people are concerned.

[Jeffrey Orling]

Long ago, and many times, I gave referenced multiple reasons why this person's 'zipper' theory doesn't comport either with the evidence or with the PHYSICICAL laws of the universe....but that means little when controlling the hearts and minds of the people are concerned.

No Lemkin... wrong. I just am not working much these days and spend my time (too much of it) on discussion forums of numerous topics of interest to me... and it fluctuates... sailing, ballet, 9/11 etc.

9/11 is interesting because it was such a big event and had an enormous wake. All manner of analysis sprung forth and mostly divided into the two sides... insider false flag and OCT...

I say false dichotomy... and see flaws in both.... so I came up with something which I feel matches the observations and the science/engineering. Yea I think for myself and so I don't fit in as a bobblehead for OCT or 911truth. I am consistent in saying both are wrong.

And no I am not an agent of anyone...

You clearly don't know much about the physical laws of the universe... though you scream that you do... and that's sounding a lot like Fetzer. You need to re think that statement.

The towers' designs (flaws) have not been repeated... why not?