Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis

[Magda Hassan]

Just in case anyone thinks Tony S. is a 'lightweight' on 911 matters, I'd like to set them straight. He has done many articles in peer reviewed 911 journals. Here is one search that will turn up just some of them...
https://www.google.cz/search?q=Tony+Szam...%20studies

But has he been peer reviewed in academic and professional journals?

[David Guyatt]

Your points about the ruling elite are not part of the discussion you started. You seemed to be pleading for Jeffrey's right to make his case and that his banging on with it, whether you agreed or not, did not bother you.

Thank you Tony. That is almost precisely the point I have been making.

Like Magda, I am convinced that Jeffrey is just an ordinary guy making a repetitive argument.

Amongst others.

But the real point is that the way our argument is conducted and the way we comport ourselves, is at least as important as the arguments we make.

I do not intend to belabour this point further or post further.

David

[Tony Szamboti]

Your points about the ruling elite are not part of the discussion you started. You seemed to be pleading for Jeffrey's right to make his case and that his banging on with it, whether you agreed or not, did not bother you.

Thank you Tony. That is almost precisely the point I have been making.

Like Magda, I am convinced that Jeffrey is just an ordinary guy making a repetitive argument.

Amongst others.

But the real point is that the way our argument is conducted and the way we comport ourselves, is at least as important as the arguments we make.

I do not intend to belabour this point further or post further.

David

I certainly do not agree. I have met him several times and after observing his behavior over a period of time believe him to be an agent.

- He gained the confidence of NYC CAN and volunteered to help out with the City Council member meetings. I was there when he tried to reframe what we would say in our first meeting with a NY City Council member and director Ted Walter came to me quite annoyed and complaining about Jeffrey's insistence on certain phrasing. I had no interest in doing that and was there to support NYC CAN and their quest for a new investigation.

- He engendered the confidence of Richard Gage and worked his way onto AE911Truth's board and was in the process of reframing the organization's entire way of viewing the collapses and removing the term controlled demolition, when certain individuals caused a ruckus about him and threatened to leave if he wasn't removed.

- He came to the University of Hartford Investigate Building 7 conference where I gave a talk and sought me out trying to argue that the 8 story free fall acceleration of WTC 7 was not indicative of controlled demolition.

We are dealing with the murder of thousands of people here, and a major change in U.S. policies due to it that caused hundreds of thousands of deaths of innocents, all while there was serious evidence that the buildings were brought down via controlled demolition that has not been investigated. Orling's "we can never know" mantra is designed to paralyze the thinking of the average person and keep them from supporting a new investigation to prevent justice from being served here. At the very least he and those like him deserve to be exposed and ignored.

[Peter Lemkin]

For me, what became a bit suspicious about a 'certain person' on this Forum, was when they began to attack or inject doubt into any 9-11 thread, that had as its thrust, an 'inside job' - not 19 ill-trained pilots who had been on the FBI/CIA and various foreign intel payrolls [and some of whom are still alive and well], and a man in a cave. When they first came to the Forum they only participated in 9-11 threads related to the tower collapses - with their unique theory. At that time they also professed their belief in a conspiracy different than the official one...but that slowly morphed, IMO, to a belief that the official version was only wrong in the MANNER in which the fires caused the collapses of the towers [sans nanothermite or any explosives/incendiaries] - the 'unzip effect/theory'. These slow and subtle changes of tack, rather than the endless repetition of the unzip theory, gave me pause....it still does.

So, some of us will have to agree to disagree on this.

[Tony Szamboti]

For me, what became a bit suspicious about a 'certain person' on this Forum, was when they began to attack or inject doubt into any 9-11 thread, that had as its thrust, an 'inside job' - not 19 ill-trained pilots who had been on the FBI/CIA and various foreign intel payrolls [and some of whom are still alive and well], and a man in a cave. When they first came to the Forum they only participated in 9-11 threads related to the tower collapses - with their unique theory. At that time they also professed their belief in a conspiracy different than the official one...but that slowly morphed, IMO, to a belief that the official version was only wrong in the MANNER in which the fires caused the collapses of the towers [sans nanothermite or any explosives/incendiaries] - the 'unzip effect/theory'. These slow and subtle changes of tack, rather than the endless repetition of the unzip theory, gave me pause....it still does.

So, some of us will have to agree to disagree on this.

I think your instincts were right.

[Magda Hassan]

We are dealing with the murder of tens of thousands of people here and Orling's "we can never know" mantra is bogus and obviously designed to paralyze. He is a classic water muddier who has no real interest in discerning what actually happened and justice. He deserves to be exposed and ignored.

Well, Jeffrey certainly is not responsible for the murder of thousands. He may deserve to be ignored, I'm not in a position to judge not having the skills to assess engineering/structural matters, but I doubt there is any thing to expose. And I do have those skills and experience. He has a life outside of 9/11. In my personal research on Jeffrey I found him to be actively involved in professional groups who seek to use design and architecture and planning for social responsibility. They put their professional skills to work for peace, environmental protection, ecological building, social justice, and the development of healthy communities. He sounds the sort of person I'd like. So he doesn't agree with the party line on 911. Either of them.

[Tony Szamboti]

We are dealing with the murder of tens of thousands of people here and Orling's "we can never know" mantra is bogus and obviously designed to paralyze. He is a classic water muddier who has no real interest in discerning what actually happened and justice. He deserves to be exposed and ignored.

Well, Jeffrey certainly is not responsible for the murder of thousands. He may deserve to be ignored, I'm not in a position to judge not having the skills to assess engineering/structural matters, but I doubt there is any thing to expose. And I do have those skills and experience. He has a life outside of 9/11. In my personal research on Jeffrey I found him to be actively involved in professional groups who seek to use design and architecture and planning for social responsibility. They put their professional skills to work for peace, environmental protection, ecological building, social justice, and the development of healthy communities. He sounds the sort of person I'd like. So he doesn't agree with the party line on 911. Either of them.

Oh, he is active alright, in the sense of trying to maintain confusion and preventing a real investigation of those who had access to the interiors of those buildings. The debate about it is over and that desperately needs to be done based on the evidence. If Jeffrey Orling is not an agent then he is an idiot, given the type of views he espouses in light of the clear evidence for controlled demolition, and shouldn't be given consideration either way.

I would like to know if anyone here would be willing to long suffer the nonsense proffered by Jeffrey Orling, and those like him, if a member of their family had been killed in those collapses, with serious evidence pointing to intentional demolition that was not further investigated.

[Magda Hassan]

Oh, he is active alright, in the sense of trying to maintain confusion and preventing a real investigation of those who had access to the interiors of those buildings.

And how exactly does he do that? He sounds more powerful than the Dulles brothers.

I would like to know if anyone here would be willing to long suffer the nonsense proffered by Jeffrey Orling, and those like him, if a member of their family had been killed in those collapses, with serious evidence pointing to intentional demolition that was not further investigated.

You don't need to be a family member of the victims to want a proper investigation. I have never heard Jeffrey say there should not be one. On the contrary I think I have seem him state that there should. For that matter some of the victims family accept the official version. Many don't. Your not going to say those that accept the official version are some how complicit?

[Jeffrey Orling]

[quote=David Guyatt][quote=Tony Szamboti]

I certainly do not agree. I have met him several times and after observing his behavior over a period of time believe him to be an agent.

- He gained the confidence of NYC CAN and volunteered to help out with the City Council member meetings. I was there when he tried to reframe what we would say in our first meeting with a NY City Council member and director Ted Walter came to me quite annoyed and complaining about Jeffrey's insistence on certain phrasing. I had no interest in doing that and was there to support NYC CAN and their quest for a new investigation.

- He engendered the confidence of Richard Gage and worked his way onto AE911Truth's board and was in the process of reframing the organization's entire way of viewing the collapses and removing the term controlled demolition, when certain individuals caused a ruckus about him and threatened to leave if he wasn't removed.

- He came to the University of Hartford Investigate Building 7 conference where I gave a talk and sought me out trying to argue that the 8 story free fall acceleration of WTC 7 was not indicative of controlled demolition.

We are dealing with the murder of thousands of people here, and a major change in U.S. policies due to it that caused hundreds of thousands of deaths of innocents, all while there was serious evidence that the buildings were brought down via controlled demolition that has not been investigated. Orling's "we can never know" mantra is designed to paralyze the thinking of the average person and keep them from supporting a new investigation to prevent justice from being served here. At the very least he and those like him deserve to be exposed and ignored.

This nonsense about being an agent is so childish and a paranoid fantasy not to mention an bnaked ad hom and borders on slander.

None of the actions cited are evidence of anyone being an agent. I did become interested in 9/11 truth because I WAS wanting an explanation for the destruction of those towers which seemed to defy credulity. I expected the official report would provide the detail which made this clear. They stalled and when they came out the reports did not impress me and so I turned at the time to the truth movement which WAS calling for a new investigation and of course joined the group which represented my own profession - architecture. I immersed myself in the truth materials online and signed the AE911T petition and went to 2009 presentation on the 9/11 anniversary We Demand Transparency were I met TSz and Gage for the first time. I offered my help to Gage and he invited to his strategy conference calls, and then after I made some organizational suggestions to improve deficiency... several of which are still in place at AE911T... such as BaseCamp... he asked me to join the board... I refused and he prevailed. HE ASKED ME.. I accepted. I tried to get the group to use their signers to engage in research.. the sort of research which NIST seems to have poorly done. Gage was not interested. I realized they were a marketing operation for a series of talking points and simply were about raising money to spread their message... repeating the same dog and pony show over and over again, Gage was the main presenter and paid himself a handsome salary with expenses... having left his day job. I found that I did not find some of the evidence they asserted to be factual as accurate and did not pass their litmus belief test. I was interested in finding out what happened... they were interested in convincing people 9/11 was a CD and their call for an investigation was a cover for their "inside job CD" message.

I was expelled from the board and the group for no cause... had not violated any of the bi-laws...Board member Deets supported me... and blocked the first attempt at expulsion. SO they had a secret board meeting and changed the bylaws to allow removal without cause with a simply majority vote and I was tossed out.

As my interested in understanding what had happened on 9/11 at the WTC continued I pursued my own research... You know the short of think TSz does... but I don't have a web site or publish papers which have been debunked. Lots of debunking going on.. Pop Mechanics, and all sorts of papers and presentation which are built on false assumptions and use smoke and mirrors and what amounts to junk science to make what appears to the naive (not technically adept) to be convincing. All manner of appeal to authority arguments have been made. Bazant's work was theoretical and not literally a model of the WTC events... Just eh way TSz's is...

We suffer from a lack of data and a excessive amount of made up stuff and projection. Lots of GIGO arguments abound.

My own work revealed to me that there were perfectly logical technical explanations for all three collapses and they did not require CD devices. But they WOULD require sufficient heat to weaken nodes in critical places to initiate a progressive cascading set of failures which rapidly passed the point of stability to instability and what is referred to as global collapse. The structures behaved as failing complex systems do. This is what made sense to me. I tried for a few years to present this to others for their consideration.

I do have some friends inside the truth movement which I do remain in touch with such as Paul Zarembka. I did go to Hartford to meet one of them and to actually try to get face time with a few people to reveal my own findings...They were not what NIST reported.. but they were not CD either. Truthers are stubborn and completely convinced of their beliefs. They don't want to consider anything BUT the inside job CD.

I've realized in the last year or so that it's futile to discuss or debate the technical issues of what happened in NYC on 9/11/01 with people who are not open minded... and their minds are closed shut.

I am not pleased with how the USG leveraged 9/11 to advance a war agenda abroad and at home and to spy and take away 4th amendment rights. The fascists which are looking for any opportunity to grad more and advance their agenda found 9/11 to be more than they could have hoped for. They might have wanted such a pretext for new policies... even planned for the day but I am not convinced that they conspired to carry out 9/11 and place devices in the 3 towers. I see no evidence of such and will remain skeptical until I see unambiguous proof.

I have no skin in the game, I don't have DVDs to promote or a reputation to defend,... a salary to make from being an activist, or income from book sales and speaking engagements. 9/11 is not an occupation and having satisfied my own curiosity (though remaining open minded) it's just a hobby and something to spend time on in internet discussions if they are interesting. Lately they are not and it's rehashing the same old same old. Hartford was the last truther event I went to... my friend Lenny from Boston is no longer interested or active in 9/11 truth.. I don't know why... I don't expect the hard core to drop away... too much ego invested in it and that makes them inflexible and close minded and in constant pursuit to reinforce their core beliefs. The truth movement resembles a cult more than anything else. Sad but true and nothing to do with the pursuit of understanding and knowledge. Truthers are politically driven and technically challenged including TSz who makes critical mistakes and attempts to deceive with a series of equations which don't apply to the actual events. More GIGO.

When they resort to ad homs it pretty much is a sign they can't argue the facts.

It's all very transparent.

[Jeffrey Orling]

[quote=Magda Hassan][quote=Tony Szamboti]

Oh, he is active alright, in the sense of trying to maintain confusion and preventing a real investigation of those who had access to the interiors of those buildings. The debate about it is over and that desperately needs to be done based on the evidence. If Jeffrey Orling is not an agent then he is an idiot, given the type of views he espouses in light of the clear evidence for controlled demolition, and shouldn't be given consideration either way.

I would like to know if anyone here would be willing to long suffer the nonsense proffered by Jeffrey Orling, and those like him, if a member of their family had been killed in those collapses, with serious evidence pointing to intentional demolition that was not further investigated.

Completely nonsense. In have advocated in the past and still do for a new complete technical investigation and use the findings to achieve justice and accountability. I believe there may have been a conspiracy to conceal some of the issues and provide cover for some who should be held accountable for their actions or professional (mis)conduct, incompetence and so forth. That needs to be determined.. it's conjecture. Like most people I deplore what was done in our name using 9/11 as a pretext. Calling someone an agent (of which agency??) or an idiot is not advancing the discussion. You and your associates might not like or agree with what I have put forth about the technical issues related to the WTC, but the slurs are not refutation. It's quite undignified.