Muchmore: Brake Lights On?

[David Josephs]

I would like to contribute to a Zapruder film thread, but I'm not sure the one suggested above is the appropriate one.

Jeff - take a look at the various Zapruder threads in the JFK assassination directory and see if any of fits.

I linked to a good thread in post 34 above, but you may find another one more appopriate.

Thanks Jan... definitely a good thread... yet the NPIC events do not begin until Saturday evening when Dino gets his 8mm original.

One of the possibilities for alteration is the answer to: What happens to the Philips to Rowley copy of the film delivered Friday night?

By Saturday evening, LIFE has created B&W film and still copies of the ALTERED film as we know from the images in that issue.
By Saturday morning the FBI is analyzing a film - possible a 16mm film - at Kodak with Phil.

In the thread I referenced I will be going hour by hour... another note of interest is what almost 20 people saw the one and only time they viewed the film at Kodak on what was called an Inspection Projector.
(the same projector the FBI would have used)

"...frames on the left side upside down! -- and it ran at four times normal speed."

Even at high speed... we could see the results, including the infamous frame where the Top of JFK's head is blown off." -Phil C.


I will pick this up at the other thread... yet imagine for a second what these people saw...

Unstabilized, running next to frames going in the reverse order at 4 times the normal speed... at 18fps we are talking about 72fps (even if 16fps that's 64fps)

The actual infamous scene WE SEE is 4 frames long... at 64fps - unless filmed at 48fps - I find it hard to believe those watching could discern anything in less than 1/12th of a second...
Which may be why we have so little info.

That the SS didn't even have a man at Kodak during this process (or did they?) also seems strange yet they didn't know what they had captured so maybe they didn't.
Or Sorrells knew something about the Zap film at that time that we do not know he knew.

I will leave this thread with this.... Zapruder was NOT in the room when his film was being processed...

Does this signed statement say anything about NOT creating a duplicate of this film... 0184... ??
yet it does state that the film was NOT SHOWN TO ANY OTHER PERSON... only those employees who handled it in the "ordinary course of handing the same"

Phil tells us that in addition to him, Zapruder, the process man, & Dick Blair of Kodak Cust Serv (who signed this as a notary) up to 11 "other staff people" inspected this film.
More at the other thread...

(maybe the mods can combine a few on theZfilm thread into one??
DJ

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[David Josephs]

In your fantastic essay you show a graphic inwhich "0183" on a leader is a full 16mm wide.

Except all the remaining images of a SLIT FILM do not include this leader.

Do they simply split the entire film, leader and all, resulting in HALF the 0183 at the beginning of Side A now at the start of the film
and the other half at the END of the film at the end of side B?

Please explain
DJ


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[David Josephs]

David H, according to my research, the Z-film was viewed 1/27/1964 by WC staffers, FBI and SS agents.

On 2/25/1964, Herbert Orth, Assistant Chief of Life's photographic lab, brought the original Zapruder film to the WC for viewing, but refused to stop to view individual frames out of fear of causing burn damage.

On 4/14/1964 the autopsy doctors and government ballistics experts viewed the film.

Then on 4/21/1964 the film was viewed again by some Parkland doctors, Dr. Joseph R. Dolce and Dr. Frederick W. Light Jr, Dr. Alfred G. Olivier, several FBI agents, and several WC staffers. I think Connally viewed it around this time as well.

Then in May (I think) a 21-minute film Assassination of President John F. Kennedy was produced by the SS, narrated by Jim Underwood and directed by John Joe Howlett and Talmadge Bailey. It was photographed by Eddie Barker, Jim Underwood, Henk Dewit, and KRLD-TV. It features the unedited Zapruder film (in B&W), and was probably only shown in government circles. But it's now on Youtube.



It's true that we don't have an official chain of possession, but there are a couple of good chronologies on the film's whereabouts that I've seen.

Which film's whereabouts are YOU talking about?

Starting the process at the end of January 1964 as opposed to the 48 hours following 12:30pm 11/22... you're talking about the chronology of an already altered film.
The WC never saw the original film
It is even possible that Dino and Arthur NEVER GOT TO SEE THE ORIGINAL FILM...

Help me out here - A copy of the film is flown to SS Chief Rowley Friday night.

Zapruder has the original and best copy (2) which he gives to Stolley days later. Stolley takes the "original" on 11/25. or at least what he believes to tbe the original.
Sorrels has 2 (2+2=4)
Philips sends Rowley a copy (4+1=5)


0186 went to FBI
0183 and say 0185 go to Stolley/LIFE - and even then that is not easy to prove
0187 is SS #2

Which copy went to Rowley and where did it go after that?

If you can't find it... why couldn't this film be a somewhat sanitized version of 0183... say 0184, a 16mm original copy made at the same time as 0183 or later during 0185/6/7 given to Dino Saturday night? (I know what they SAID... what actually happened is what I'm trying to discover.)

I am thinking alot out loud as I hope to continue the discussion... If Jim doesn't mind it staying here, fine. I have started my hour bby hour discussion elsewhere...

Cheers
DJ

[David Josephs]

Tracy...

According to what I've read, the January viewing was of a 2nd or 3rd generation film.... the WC asked that they see the original as the image was so poor.

I've tried to find mention of the Feb 25th showing in the Exec Session but have not been successful... can you quote the source of the information that the WC saw this original on that day and whether there was any subsequent discussion on the record related to this veiwing?

Would also like the sources for the subsequent viewings and whether it is known which film was used...

The Feb 1964 viewing was follow by an offer to create 35mm enlargements of frames 171-334... the frames LIFE felt constitued the assassination.

http://www.jfk.org/go/collections/about/...chronology
February 25, 1964
Life showed the original film several times to Warren Commission, FBI and Secret Service personnel, and then offered to make 35mm color slides of frames 171-334, which covered what was thought to be all of the assassination.


Thanks
DJ

[Tracy Riddle]

David J, the 1/27/1964 viewing was discussed in Volume 5 page 141 of the 26 volumes. According to Trask in Pictures of the Pain, they viewed a second generation copy. The April viewings are discussed in internal WC memos from Melvin Eisenberg. All of these viewings (including the Herbert Orth viewing) are described in Trask's book, which has an extensive chapter on the Z-film and its history.

[David Josephs]

David J, the 1/27/1964 viewing was discussed in Volume 5 page 141 of the 26 volumes. According to Trask in Pictures of the Pain, they viewed a second generation copy. The April viewings are discussed in internal WC memos from Melvin Eisenberg. All of these viewings (including the Herbert Orth viewing) are described in Trask's book, which has an extensive chapter on the Z-film and its history.

much appreciated Tracy... thanks..

any chance I can get a link to the Eisenberg memos themselves? I can't seem to find them at the moment...
DJ

[Tracy Riddle]

Here they are. Sorry to link to McAdams' site, but he does have some useful stuff there.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/wcsbt.htm

[David Josephs]

Here they are. Sorry to link to McAdams' site, but he does have some useful stuff there.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/wcsbt.htm

Greatly appreciated Tracy... thanks

and yes... there are some gems at the site - but only the presentation of original evidence as presented by the Government...

Back to Muchmore for a second...

When you said the WC sees the film in April 64 I had hoped to find some comments in the EXEC sessions.
no such luck

but I did find mention by one of the commissioners that HE understood MUCHMORE said she did not film the assassination...
I believe Shaneyfelt replied - 'well, there are images on there' - yet I'd like to find it again and link to it...

Cheers
DJ

[David Josephs]

[size=12][size=12]
Mr. DULLES. Do I understand you correctly that Mrs.Muchmore didn't realize
she had taken the later pictures that appear?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. According to her statement, she saidafter hearing the shots,
she panicked, and didn't take any more pictures.

Mr. DULLES. You think she did?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. On the film there are pictures.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/j..._0076a.htm


not only pictures but the cut is to the exact moments of the headshot... from the front.
DJ

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[Kyle Burnett]

A guy on YouTube by the name of [video]http://www.youtube.com/user/antdavisonNZ[/video] has recently created some impressive stabilized panoramas of the assassination films:

[video=youtube_share;-g7qhn7KFDs]http://youtu.be/-g7qhn7KFDs[/video]
[video=youtube_share;gWEXZyMJMtA]http://youtu.be/gWEXZyMJMtA[/video][video=youtube_share;sMdreKlLhJY]http://youtu.be/sMdreKlLhJY[/video]

The fact that the Lincoln slowed down dramatically is quite clear in those, the speed at which the Queen Marry can be seen closing in behind the Lincoln at the beginning of the Nix film being one notable indicator. Also worth noting is the fact Nix told Mark Lane that the existent version of his film is missing some frames:

[video=youtube_share;BNhyqOj3xFo]http://youtu.be/BNhyqOj3xFo[/video]