Fred Lee Crisman

[Jan Klimkowski]

Helen - an excellent post. Welcome to DPF!

On Paperclip, Banister, Crisman, and the creation of the "flying saucer" legend, the supposed July 1947 memo from General Nathan Twining detailing the presence of German scientists from Fort Bliss & White Sands - ie Paperclip scientists - at the scene of an "air accident" is most provocative. Here's an excerpt:

The following is a partial excerpt of the lengthy and detailed
information of a July 16, 1947, document from Headquarters Army Air Force
Commanding General, Nathan Twining, to Commanding General Air Defense
Command. "This three page bureaucratic report provides the first glimpses of
Lt. General Nathan F. Twining's Air Accident Report original published in
Leonard Stringfield's (now deceased) Status Report VII, in 1994. Ryan Wood
comments: "Twining apparently describes in first order detail the inside of
a flying disc, everything from the typewriter-like keys that control the
propulsion system to a thirty-five-foot-diameter doughnut shaped tube,"
possibly filled with heavy water. "The significance and consistency of the
technical content has not been evaluated, although it is clear that the
writing is consistent with 1947 state of the art, not modern."

"1. As ordered by Presidential Directive, dated 9 July 1947, a
preliminary investigation of a recovered "Flying Disc" and remains of a
possible second disc, was conducted by the senior staff of this command. The data furnished in this report was provided by the engineer staff personnel
of T-2 and Aircraft Laboratory, Engineering Division T. Additional data was
supplied by the scientific personnel of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, CIT
and the Army Air Forces Scientific Advisory Group, headed by Dr. Theodore
von Karman. Further analysis was conducted by personnel from Research and
Development.

2. It is the collective view of this investigative body, that
the aircraft recovered by the Army and Air Force units near Victorio Peak
and Socorro, New Mexico, are not of U.S. manufacture for the following
reasons:

a. The circular, disc-shaped 'planform' design does not
resemble any design currently under development by this command nor of any
Navy project.

b. The lack of any external propulsion system, power plant,
intake, exhaust either for propeller or jet propulsion, warrants this view.

c. The inability of the German scientists from Fort Bliss and
White Sands Proving Ground to make a positive identification of a secret
German V weapon out of these discs. Though the possibility that the Russians
have managed to develop such a craft remains. The lack of any markings, ID
numbers or instructions in Cyrillic, has placed serious doubt in the minds
of many, that the objects recovered are not of Russian manufacture either.

d. Upon examination of the interior of the craft, a
compartment exhibiting a possible atomic engine was discovered. At least
this is the opinion of Dr. Oppenheimer and Dr. von Karman. A possibility
exists that part of the craft itself comprises the propulsion system; thus,
allowing the reactor to function as a heat exchanger and permitting the
storage of energy into a substance for later use. This may allow the
converting of mass into energy, unlike the release of energy of our atomic
bombs. The description of the power room is as follows:

(1) A doughnut shaped tube approximately thirty-five feet in
diameter, made of what appears to be a plastic material, surrounding a
central core. This tube was translucent, approximately one inch thick. The
tube appeared to be filled with a clear substance, possibly a heavy water. A
large rod, centered inside the tube, was wrapped in a coil of what appears
to be of copper material, ran through the circumference of the tube. This
may be the reactor control mechanism or a storage battery. There were no
moving parts discernible within the (words obscured here).

(2) This activation of a electrical potential is believed to
be the primary power to the reactor, though it is only a theory at present.
Just how a heavy water reactor functions in this environment is unknown.

(3) Underneath the power plant, was discovered a ball-turret,
approximately ten feet in diameter. This turret was encompassed by a series
of gears that has a unusual ratio not known by any of our engineers. On the
underside of the turret were four circular cavities, coated with some smooth
material not identified. These cavities are symmetrical, but seem to be
movable. Just how is not known. The movement of the turret coincides with
the dome-shaped cupola compartment above the power room. It is believed that
the main propulsion system is a bladeless turbine, similar to current
development now underway at AMC and the Mogul Project.

A possible theory was devised by Dr. August Steinhoff, Dr. Werner von Braun and Dr. Theodore von Karman as the craft moves through the air, it somehow draws the oxygen from the atmosphere and by a induction process, generates a atomic fusion reaction (see TAB 2). The air outside the craft would be ionized,thus propelling the craft forward. Coupled with the circular air foil for lift, the craft would presumably have an unlimited range and air speed. This may account for the reported absence of any noise and the apparent blue flame often associated with rapid acceleration.

(4) On the deck of the power room, there are what resembles
typewriter keys, possibly reactor/powerplant controls. There were no
conventional electronics nor wiring to be seen connecting these controls to
the propulsion turret.

e. There is a flight deck located inside the cupola section.
It is round and domed at the top. The absence of canopy, observation
windows/blisters, or any optical projection, lends support to the opinion
that this craft is either guided by remote viewing or is remotely
controlled.

(1) A semi-circular photo-tube array (possibly television).

(2) Crew compartments were hermetically sealed via a
solidification process.

(3) No weld marks, rivets or soldered joints.

(4) Craft components appear to be molded and pressed into a
perfect fit."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AGETI/message/6721

Joseph P Farrell analyzes this document with his usual perspicacity on p303ff of his essential Reich of the Black Sun.

Helen - please also take a look at the thread linked below, and add your thoughts, if appropriate:

http://www.deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=26

[Charles Drago]

"The absence of canopy, observation windows/blisters, or any optical projection, lends support to the opinion that this craft is either guided by remote viewing or is remotely controlled." [emphasis added]


Jan,

To my knowledge, the term "remote viewing" (as it appears in what purports to be a document written in 1947) had not been coined at the time of this usage.

Are we looking at prima facie evidence of a modern-day forger's screw-up?

Or was remote viewing as we understand it today being conducted over sixty years ago?

And the so-called "heavy water" -- is the reference intended to bring to mind the infamous "red mercury," a/k/a the mystery "serum" used in Farrell's "bell" device?

[Helen Reyes]

Thanks Jan, will take a look at that thread.

As for "remote viewing," I've come across it in WWII-era documents, where it never means psychic phenomena a la Major Ed Dames or Ingo Swann. It means literally viewing something remotely, by eye, telescope or via some telemetry device. That doesn't make the document authentic, of course.

[Helen Reyes]

Crisman's 2nd letter to AS with Palmer's response.

May 1947 Amazing Stories, page 168, "Discussions":

Report from Alaska

Sirs :
I have just finished reading the September issue
of Harper's Magazine, and I noted where Williams
S. Baring-Gould had selected my letter to you last
winter as an example of crackpot letters. I bit-
terly resent this. It is all well and good to sit in
a comfortable office or home and look upon far
places and strange things as through a veil of un-
belief . . . however, when you are there and
death looks you right in the eye . . . you feel a
little different and the safe, comfortable U. S. A.
becomes the world of never-was and "does it
really exist?". I felt that you too, Mr. Palmer,
had more or less given me up for a jerk who was
only trying to pull your leg. Again the fear that
maybe all this was only a promotion stunt and
gales of laughter in the AS office.
Well, you see how it is. Dick and I have made
our Alaska journey and we failed, we lost and we
lost a lot, Dick lost his life. The details I don't
suppose you are interested in, however Shaver
would get a kick out of a journey to the Alaska
cave. It seems strange to read AS and see the
"little" people still wondering and still "investi-
gating" their claims of caves. Go and take a look
for yourself, I say. Sure, it takes money and guts.
I know, I have spent all I have of both. It sickens
me when I read an article like Gould's. So smug
and sure. After all, Dick is dead, and that meant
a lot to me. I don't care whether you be-
lieve or not, I'm sick of the whole mess. I don't
even want to think of last year, and of Alaska
least of all. Just wanted to go on record as being
further sickened by Gould's article.
Fred L. Crisman
125 Woodland
Salishan Add.
Tacoma, Washington

Well, there you are, Mr. Crisman, on record.
And we heartily agree with you. But we are in-
terested in the details of your little journey, and
we offer herewith to publish your story of that
Alaska cave complete. Our readers want proof.
We want proof. If you've got any at all, we
want it. In your previous letter, you asked us to
keep your identity secret. We had to do that, and
you can't blame us for being reluctant to believe,
although we did publish your letter because it
was right in line with what we do believe, and
that is the Shaver Mystery. It is shocking, cer-
tainly, to have you tell us that your companion
was killed in that Alaskan adventure, but we can't
let it just rest there. Either this is true, or it isn't
true. And if true, you can't just let it go by being
sickened of the whole affair. We have chosen to
publish this letter, rather than replying directly
to you as yet, although by the time this is pub-
lished you will have heard from us. If your story
can be proved, and this cave shown to us, we CAN
and WILL raise money for a complete investi-
gation. Our readers, judging from the thousands
of letter we have, would find a way to finance
the thing themselves, if we didn't. They're that
interested. For example, Chet Geier, well known
author, has recently started a club of AMAZING
STORIES readers who are interested in doing some-
thing about solving the mystery. That ought to
prove to you that you would certainly not be
considered a crackpot if you came forward with
your complete story. Baring-Gould, true enough,
took it upon himself to cover a subject whereon
he was completely ignorant, and worse still, gross-
ly misinformed. He was like a Zulu given the job
of writing a technical article about an atomic pile
from information given him by a Hottentot. We
consider Mr. Gould's article to be simply a smart
article-writer's annexing of a fat check by getting
there fustest with the mostest words on a subject
he was clever enough to realize was "hot." He
writes for a living, and he'd do an article about
steel mills, if it was as hot. Although we hope
he'd go to a steel mill for his information, and
not a Hottentot.
So, let us go on record too. You send us your
story, and prove it, and we'll pay you a damsite
more than Gould got for his article. And if you
prove to have no more facts than Gould did, we'll
forget about it and no hard feelings. Sound okay
to you? --ED.

http://rapidshare.com/files/204270574/Am...1736__.cbr

note: Jon Gold (some say Gould as well) was Crisman's airname on KAYE FM Puyallup. Crisman was allegedly posted to Alaska AFTER Maury Island, too.

In the summer of 46 Amazing carried a story by a German author named Heinrich Hauser (HH could mean Heil Hitler) called Agarthi ("Hidden in caves under Germany there were great factories turning out monstrous V-7 atomic rockets to blast the whole world"). That summer there was also a last-page feature called King of the World based on Guenon (but hailing from Venus), and mention of Alexandre Saint Yves d'Alveydre, who made a report on Agartha in the 19th century that Guenon cites.

The story Agarthi is in the same issue as Crisman's first letter, June of 46.

http://rapidshare.com/files/175133850/Am...e1736_.cbr

[Jan Klimkowski]

"The absence of canopy, observation windows/blisters, or any optical projection, lends support to the opinion that this craft is either guided by remote viewing or is remotely controlled." [emphasis added]


Jan,

To my knowledge, the term "remote viewing" (as it appears in what purports to be a document written in 1947) had not been coined at the time of this usage.

Are we looking at prima facie evidence of a modern-day forger's screw-up?

Or was remote viewing as we understand it today being conducted over sixty years ago?

Hi Charles - I agree with Helen's interpretation below that "remote viewing" in the context of the alleged 1947 Twining memo implies viewing that is not direct such as through some mechanical instrument.

I know a lot about the various psychic remote viewing projects - CIA, NSA, Military Intelligence, Scientology - as I was the first UK journalist approached with the limited hangout story that became UK Channel 4's Psychic Spies documentary. Those projects are clearly of later origin, and if the memo did refer to this type of remote viewing, it would provide prima facie evidence of forgery.

However, I believe the phrase refers to non-direct viewing in an engineering not psychic sense.

At the bigger level, the purported 1947 Twining memo is not proven definitely authentic, and so needs to be treated with care. Again, I think Farrell's analysis - cited above - is careful and considered. If the memo is genuine then, Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore.....

note: Jon Gold (some say Gould as well) was Crisman's airname on KAYE FM Puyallup. Crisman was allegedly posted to Alaska AFTER Maury Island, too.

In the summer of 46 Amazing carried a story by a German author named Heinrich Hauser (HH could mean Heil Hitler) called Agarthi ("Hidden in caves under Germany there were great factories turning out monstrous V-7 atomic rockets to blast the whole world"). That summer there was also a last-page feature called King of the World based on Guenon (but hailing from Venus), and mention of Alexandre Saint Yves d'Alveydre, who made a report on Agartha in the 19th century that Guenon cites.

The story Agarthi is in the same issue as Crisman's first letter, June of 46.

http://rapidshare.com/files/175133850/Am...e1736_.cbr

We have several worlds colliding here:

- A physics based more on Tesla than Einstein's relativity

- archetypal elements out of Jung

- SS Ahnenerbe mysticism

- deep black propaganda creating cover and plausible deniability for scientific research projects which are monstrous and potentially out of control.

[Helen Reyes]

We have several worlds colliding here:

- A physics based more on Tesla than Einstein's relativity

- archetypal elements out of Jung

- SS Ahnenerbe mysticism

- deep black propaganda creating cover and plausible deniability for scientific research projects which are monstrous and potentially out of control.

And the industrial world of mining, the espionage world of finding cover for Nazi war criminals and the independent Federal Reserve's interface with the nominal government, the Treasury Department (which incidentally controls the Secret Service).

Kennedy was about to address the Dallas Trade Mart. I read Garrison's cross exam of whom I thought was Banister but must've been Shaw because it's all about World Trade Mart. Garrison tries to tie Trade marts and "World Trade Centers" together while questioning the suspect about his travel itinerary during the assassination. It quickly unravels that the suspect staged a speaking engagement in San Francisco, claiming he was invited to speak when he in fact set it up and rented the hall at the SF trade center org.

His real destination was a speaking engagement in Oregon, near Portland.

For some reason sources place Crisman in "Rainier, Oregon" during the assassination, teaching high school. To the best of my knowledge there is no Rainier in Oregon, and Crisman was teaching at Rainier High School in Tacoma that day. Still, Tacoma was just a short journey up the highway from Portland, and Garrison was probably working on a theory that the suspect was headed toward Crisman. Or maybe he was just fishing.

The boondocks link provided earlier contains info that Garrison, Banister AND SHAW were all in Washington state in 1947. Add Kerry Thornley's Confession, put E Howard Hunt and Crisman in New Orleans and Dallas during the period and you have a general outline of the plot. A core group organizing and numerous outside groups being drawn in for cover and plausible deniability.

That makes LBJ, General Dynamics and the Secret Service bit players, says nothing about the shooters' team or what and how they shot and leaves George H W "Pappy" Bush in Houston hanging like a question mark, but makes a certain kind of sense to me.

http://www.sondralondon.com/attract/thor.../index.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky7O9COM13o

[Charles Drago]

A core group organizing and numerous outside groups being drawn in for cover and plausible deniability.

That makes LBJ, General Dynamics and the Secret Service bit players, says nothing about the shooters' team or what and how they shot and leaves George H W "Pappy" Bush in Houston hanging like a question mark, but makes a certain kind of sense to me.

You are precisely on-target (pardon the expression).

Your "bit players" and "core group" constructions also may be written (with, if you'll permit me, added refinement) as "false sponsors" and "sponsors." See my earliest posts regarding a working tri-partite (with sub-divisions) model for the JFK assassination conspiracy structure -- an informed hypothesis originally developed by George Michael Evica and expanded upon by yours truly.

[Magda Hassan]

http://www.majesticdocuments.com/pdf/cri...bifile.pdf
Of the many and varied entries contained within the 1st Annual Report, point 6 of Annex C is certainly one of the most intriguing and refers to an incident that occurred at Maury Island, Puget Sound, Washington State in June 1947. According to a local resident, Harold Dahl, a UFO was seen to malfunction over the harbor and spewed a large amount of unidentified debris into the water. Dahl, his son and two colleagues collected the debris and showed it to Dahl’s boss, Fred Crisman. The story was passed on to Ray Palmer, a magazine publisher, who subsequently arranged for Kenneth Arnold (the pilot whose 24 June 1947 sighting was largely responsible for the coining of the term Flying Saucer) to interview Dahl and Crisman.
Following the publicity that the case attracted, two Army A-2 intelligence personnel from Hamilton Field (a Captain Davidson and a Lieutenant Brown) arrived at Maury Island on 31 July 1947. They interviewed Dahl and Crisman and flew back to Hamilton Field on the next day with some of the disc fragments on board. However, on the journey back, their aircraft caught fire, crashed and Davidson and Brown were killed. Supposedly, the disc fragments were never recovered. Speculation has existed ever since the events in question that the aircraft was sabotaged to prevent Davidson and Brown from reaching their destination. There is also much speculation surrounding Crisman, and rumors suggest that he was not an innocent party in the affair and was linked with the world of intelligence and may have been tied to the wartime Office of Strategic Services. Below is the relevant extract from the 1st Annual Report:

The death of two Air Force counterintelligence officers in the crash of their B-25 aircraft enroute to Hamilton AFB, California, after interviewing two auxiliary CG men who reported six UFOs over Maury Island, Washington, in June 1947. CIC agent Crisman had spoken to Kenneth Arnold, who on 26 June 1947, had reported a flight of UFOs over Mt. Rainier, Washington, and filed his report after he had spoken to Captain Davidson and Lieutenant Brown. The material given to Davidson and Brown was believed to come from Maury Island and may be celestial fragments containing metal from a nuclear reactor from a UFO. Fragments were turned over to CIA agent Shaw, and Crisman was ordered to the Alaskan ADC for assignment in Project IVY.

In our ongoing validation project, we are posting here the FBI’s officially released file on Fred Crisman and the Maury Island incident – all of which combined reveal a wealth of information on the events in question and on the life of Fred Crisman. More importantly, the data backs up that contained within the 1st Annual Report. The file is 40 pages in length and contains: (a) an August 1947 employment application that Crisman made for a position with the Atomic Energy Commission; (b) information on Crisman’s wartime work in the US military; © his post-war employment; (d) his relationship with Harold Dahl who was the prime witness to the UFO incident; (e) the recovery of the unidentified debris at Maury Island; (f) Kenneth Arnold’s involvement in the case; (g) the media coverage of the events in question; and (h) the involvement of Davidson and Brown and the mysterious crash of their aircraft that resulted in their deaths and the loss of the debris.

http://www.majesticdocuments.com/personnel/crisman.php
Thanks to Ed for the original pointer.

[Helen Reyes]

You are precisely on-target (pardon the expression).

Your "bit players" and "core group" constructions also may be written (with, if you'll permit me, added refinement) as "false sponsors" and "sponsors." See my earliest posts regarding a working tri-partite (with sub-divisions) model for the JFK assassination conspiracy structure -- an informed hypothesis originally developed by George Michael Evica and expanded upon by yours truly.

Yes, false sponsors and sponsors (and mechanics. etc.) might be better terms. I read some of your earlier posts, having come to the same view independently, that the cabal was trans-East/West.

I believe the plot to kill Kennedy was planned from the very outset as a narrative plot by a small group of OSS veterans with literary pretensions, in the CIA fiction-is-stranger-than-truth/fiction-prefigures-reality school of thought. The task of carrying out the plot was conducted as research for a novel would be, but without much of a paper trail and through oral contact with a large number of false sponsors and theoreticians.

I notice you are from Providence Plantations. I believe the Phillips Institute at Andover Prep is named after a Providence family Unfortunate that it was taken over by the Marshes or Mabushes or whomever.

[Charles Drago]

I believe the plot to kill Kennedy was planned from the very outset as a narrative plot by a small group of OSS veterans with literary pretensions, in the CIA fiction-is-stranger-than-truth/fiction-prefigures-reality school of thought. The task of carrying out the plot was conducted as research for a novel would be, but without much of a paper trail and through oral contact with a large number of false sponsors and theoreticians.

As you may have noted when reading earlier contributions to this blog, it was Professor Evica who first identified the JFK conspiracy and prior and subsequent operations as literary constructs -- replete with all the essential elements not just of drama, but also of the impressario's trade.

All the great religions' primary texts are, after all, novelistic in form and content.

Sol Hurok couldn't have sold the Lie and the Grand Lie as well as they've been marketed so far.

I notice you are from Providence Plantations. I believe the Phillips Institute at Andover Prep is named after a Providence family Unfortunate that it was taken over by the Marshes or Mabushes or whomever.

Or the Gogs and Magogs.