03-12-2013, 12:46 AM
David,
You wrote: "Step one of this evidence is whether the autopsy reveals thetelltale signs of suicide... close contact marks on the skin at the entry pointand powder burns on the hand which fired the pistol..."
World renowned forensics expert Professor Herbert L. MacDonnell wrote adetailed report which concluded, "Based upon the agreement of the four above points, I conclude that William Bruce Pitzer's death was the result of aself-inflected gunshot wound. It is almost impossible that someone could haveshot him and accidentally done so within the above considerations."
http://www.manuscriptservice.com/WBP-Res...Report.pdf - this report was written in 2008... he cites
1) location of the wound: a shot in the head counts for 25% of this conclusion?
2)powder burns around the wound as ascertained from photos... (except the test showed there were no burns there... The technician summarized her/his findings as, "Examination of (the)paraffin cast(s) reflected no
substance characteristic of, or which could be associated with,gunpowder or gunshot residue."
However, the back of the right hand had "large amounts of blood, skinand hair."
[size=12]
3)Trajectory: backward and upward counts for yet another 25%? so 50% of his EXPERT CONCLUSION involves a shot to the head and it rising from front to back.. damn near IMPOSSIBLE to replicate other than suicide, right?
4) a "comfortable" holding angle: here is yet another 25% of the verdict based on how a person WOULD hold a gun most comfortably to kill themselves...
So basically Martin, a shot to the head, from the front, moving upwards from a comfortable hand held position... WITHOUT residue from the shot being either on his right hand or his head is the basis for CONCLUDING that this MUST be suicide rather than murder....
... I've got some real valuable land in Florida... it's undeveloped, unencumbered, completely accessible and ready to be bought... you buying this based on these 4 things?[/SIZE]
I also just found this about MacDonnell... only goes to the potential conclusion that his PAPER in 2008, at the age of 80, may not have been all that supportive of anything.
Sunday,July 7, 2013Herb MacDonnell, Founder of Bloodstain Institute, Convicted
http://forensicfraud.blogspot.com/2013/07/herb-macdonnell-founder-of-bloodstain.html
This case involves apparent forensic fraud as Dr. MacDonell threatened to disseminate false information (based on a non-existent forensic test) about the second victim using his position of trust and authority as a forensic scientist
You know, MacDonnel does know his stuff. Seriously. As does Dr. Cyril Wechtwho said "...this has all the characteristics of a suicidal wound." I'm not gonna question these two men who are both brilliant atwhat they do and both extremely independent minded. There is no known forensicevidence of murder. Period.
I see that he is very well regarded and very close to the legal profession. If one were to only look at the WCR one can conclude that the assassination has all the characteristics of one man shooting from behind and above...
but we know better now, don't we.Let's see Martin… if the "evil men" were to perform a "murder that looks like suicide"… what evidence would you expect to find?
Can you say Marilyn Monroe or Dorothy Kilgallen?
please address why the 2 tell-tale signs of suicide are not present in this case… NO gunshot residue around the wound OR on his hand. Or whythe pistol is found to the left and rear of the body if he shot himself withhis right hand…
Telling me what a doctor said is fine and all…would youlike me to cart out the EXPERTS from the WCR or HSCA who also told us many "truths"that weren't.
You wrote: "Step two of this evidence is tocorroborate that Pitzer did indeed film the autopsy room PRIOR to 8pm"
Go ahead. Find credible witness testimony to place him there. Find a singledocument that places him at Bethesda that night. Then find evidence that he wasfilming the autopsy.
Sorry you feel Dennis David is not credible. Suggesting he learned this via thedescriptions of the wound from Parkland when there is not a singledescription of a gunshot wound to the right temple.. unless you can post one. There was a LEFT TEMPLE HOLE McClellanddescribes… how come DD does not place the hole over the LEFT temple?
Mr. SPECTER - Will you continue, then, Dr. Perry, as to whatyou observed of his condition?
Dr. PERRY - Yes, there was blood noted on the carriage and a large avulsivewound on the right posterior cranium.
I cannot state the size, I did not examine it at all. I just noted the presenceof lacerated brain tissue. In the lower part of the neck below the Adams applewas a small, roughly circular wound of perhaps 5 mm. in diameter from whichblood was exuding slowly. I did not see any other wounds.
You wrote: "Fromwhat I read Pitzer was getting ready to embark on aprivate career and gave no indication of suicidal tendencies."
Harold Rydberg wrote: "His wife stated "he loved the military, andwould never think of committing suicide on a military base, that would beembarrassing to the military and to his career." However, I stand by my theoryof loss of identity with upcoming retirement from the military, andcomplications of his making. He was a walking poster for the military. He waslooked up to all who knew him. There were signs of suicide: on the evening hewas last seen he was not neat and tidy; shooting the pistol after a class, eventhough they were blanks, was irrational; and having a .38 cartridge for thepistol (having signed out blanks), indicates premeditation."
And an interesting THEORY it is…as told by a 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] party.. kinda like DD's words. A 3[SUP]rd[/SUP]party describing a situation that requires Pitzer to have filmed/photographedthe body prior to alteration of the skull… it's good we get to pick and choose who we believe.
You wrote:"Martin... we have Benavidas' brother being shot, thinking it was him,cause he SAW someone yet could not be identified as our OSWALD"
Irrelevant. Has nothing to do with the Pitzer suicide. I am sorry the simile was lost on you there Martin. A man known to have seen the Tippit killer has his look alike brother shot for not identifying Oswald (along with a great many other witnesses) while the man who filmed the pre-autopsy surgery tothe top of the skull is "suicided"…
You wrote:"In this case we have a man KNOWN to have CCTV in the morgue"
Known how? What documentation do we have of this claim?
How about the man who performed the autopsy?
Gunn:
Could you describe in a general waywhat the autopsy room looked like?
HUMES:
Routinely, at the end of a week, wewould retain the organs from the autopsies of the week. In fact, not only didwe review them there, but there was aclosed-circuit television. They went to Andrews Air Force Base, NIH, and itwas a closed-circuit instruction program.
Humes goes on to tell us that he wishes there was CCTV broadcasting that night… this is the same man who revises the time he first sees JFK from just before 8pm back to 6:45… no CHANCE he is not being truthful about the CCTV that night...
You wrote: "who shows the results to his friend DD who in turndescribes the pre-altered wounds exactly."
Years later, after many books have been published on the subject claimingthere was a big difference between what was seen at Parkland and Bethesda.
You wrote: "Why DD has not been removed from the equation has always puzzled me"
It doesn't puzzle me in the slightest. Even about the point he saw and helped deliver the 6:35 metal casket? ok
You wrote: "If you are going to say Pitzer was Suicide, in the face of evidence against such a conclusion if reviewed in the REAL world of cause and effect, I think you must also be calling DD a liar about where Pitzer was thatnight..."
David could be lying. Or he could be mistaken. It was a very long timebefore he was asked what he saw that night. Human memory is easily influencedand confused.
OR, he could be telling the truth. But since everything about this case is on the up-and-up, no reason to think Pitzer was killed… and that "Human memory" BS is just that…voodoo BS. How many movies of dead president's autopsies do you think DD saw in his life Martin? McClelland was mistaken too about the left temple wound? A man 1 foot from thewounds… but since we have no physical evidence, he too is lying along with the Father who delivered last rites?
Next you'll tell us Sirhan did it too ?? does the fact that MacDonnell did not see any of this evidence until 2001 and the rpoert is dated 2008 make a difference to you? He wasn't even there.
You wrote: "Can you point to any questions asked of any of the Bethesdawitnesses about whether Pitzer WAS there...
in all my reading I cannot remember anyone being asked about Pitzer"
IIRC William Matson Law asked some of those interviewed for his book.
So give Martin… what did they say? They don't remember? Did Pitzer even need to be in the room to turn the CCTV camera on or retrieve its output?
Here is what Douglass wrote and his sources: http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/Unspeakable/LtCmdrPitzer.html
You wrote: "Finally - since DD was not in the autopsy room... any idea why he would make this part up about Pitzer?
Or how he would know about the exact location of the wounds?"
Already addressed this point. The Parkland descriptions were published innumerous books before Dennis David told his story.
And as before you will need to offer any evidence that offer PARKLAND descriptions of the wounds other than McClelland's left temple reference. NONE of the other people in Parkland saw a bullet hole in the right temple area…NONE. So please qualify your comment....
And then please tell me who saw Dr George Bakeman USN... as he is listed as an attendee of the autopsy... any references to him by anyone else in that room would go a long way to prove how everyone was accounted for... or not. thanks.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you see any wound anywhere on his body?
Miss HENCHLIFFE - Yes; he was very bloody, his head was very bloody when I sawhim at the time.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you ever see any wound in any other part of his body?
Miss HENCHLIFFE - When I first saw him---except his head.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you see any wound on any other part of his body?
Miss HENCHLIFFE - Yes; in the neck
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5505[/ATTACH]
You wrote: "Step one of this evidence is whether the autopsy reveals thetelltale signs of suicide... close contact marks on the skin at the entry pointand powder burns on the hand which fired the pistol..."
World renowned forensics expert Professor Herbert L. MacDonnell wrote adetailed report which concluded, "Based upon the agreement of the four above points, I conclude that William Bruce Pitzer's death was the result of aself-inflected gunshot wound. It is almost impossible that someone could haveshot him and accidentally done so within the above considerations."
http://www.manuscriptservice.com/WBP-Res...Report.pdf - this report was written in 2008... he cites
1) location of the wound: a shot in the head counts for 25% of this conclusion?
2)powder burns around the wound as ascertained from photos... (except the test showed there were no burns there... The technician summarized her/his findings as, "Examination of (the)paraffin cast(s) reflected no
substance characteristic of, or which could be associated with,gunpowder or gunshot residue."
However, the back of the right hand had "large amounts of blood, skinand hair."
[size=12]
3)Trajectory: backward and upward counts for yet another 25%? so 50% of his EXPERT CONCLUSION involves a shot to the head and it rising from front to back.. damn near IMPOSSIBLE to replicate other than suicide, right?
4) a "comfortable" holding angle: here is yet another 25% of the verdict based on how a person WOULD hold a gun most comfortably to kill themselves...
So basically Martin, a shot to the head, from the front, moving upwards from a comfortable hand held position... WITHOUT residue from the shot being either on his right hand or his head is the basis for CONCLUDING that this MUST be suicide rather than murder....
... I've got some real valuable land in Florida... it's undeveloped, unencumbered, completely accessible and ready to be bought... you buying this based on these 4 things?[/SIZE]
I also just found this about MacDonnell... only goes to the potential conclusion that his PAPER in 2008, at the age of 80, may not have been all that supportive of anything.
Sunday,July 7, 2013Herb MacDonnell, Founder of Bloodstain Institute, Convicted
http://forensicfraud.blogspot.com/2013/07/herb-macdonnell-founder-of-bloodstain.html
This case involves apparent forensic fraud as Dr. MacDonell threatened to disseminate false information (based on a non-existent forensic test) about the second victim using his position of trust and authority as a forensic scientist
You know, MacDonnel does know his stuff. Seriously. As does Dr. Cyril Wechtwho said "...this has all the characteristics of a suicidal wound." I'm not gonna question these two men who are both brilliant atwhat they do and both extremely independent minded. There is no known forensicevidence of murder. Period.
I see that he is very well regarded and very close to the legal profession. If one were to only look at the WCR one can conclude that the assassination has all the characteristics of one man shooting from behind and above...
but we know better now, don't we.Let's see Martin… if the "evil men" were to perform a "murder that looks like suicide"… what evidence would you expect to find?
Can you say Marilyn Monroe or Dorothy Kilgallen?
please address why the 2 tell-tale signs of suicide are not present in this case… NO gunshot residue around the wound OR on his hand. Or whythe pistol is found to the left and rear of the body if he shot himself withhis right hand…
Telling me what a doctor said is fine and all…would youlike me to cart out the EXPERTS from the WCR or HSCA who also told us many "truths"that weren't.
You wrote: "Step two of this evidence is tocorroborate that Pitzer did indeed film the autopsy room PRIOR to 8pm"
Go ahead. Find credible witness testimony to place him there. Find a singledocument that places him at Bethesda that night. Then find evidence that he wasfilming the autopsy.
Sorry you feel Dennis David is not credible. Suggesting he learned this via thedescriptions of the wound from Parkland when there is not a singledescription of a gunshot wound to the right temple.. unless you can post one. There was a LEFT TEMPLE HOLE McClellanddescribes… how come DD does not place the hole over the LEFT temple?
Mr. SPECTER - Will you continue, then, Dr. Perry, as to whatyou observed of his condition?
Dr. PERRY - Yes, there was blood noted on the carriage and a large avulsivewound on the right posterior cranium.
I cannot state the size, I did not examine it at all. I just noted the presenceof lacerated brain tissue. In the lower part of the neck below the Adams applewas a small, roughly circular wound of perhaps 5 mm. in diameter from whichblood was exuding slowly. I did not see any other wounds.
You wrote: "Fromwhat I read Pitzer was getting ready to embark on aprivate career and gave no indication of suicidal tendencies."
Harold Rydberg wrote: "His wife stated "he loved the military, andwould never think of committing suicide on a military base, that would beembarrassing to the military and to his career." However, I stand by my theoryof loss of identity with upcoming retirement from the military, andcomplications of his making. He was a walking poster for the military. He waslooked up to all who knew him. There were signs of suicide: on the evening hewas last seen he was not neat and tidy; shooting the pistol after a class, eventhough they were blanks, was irrational; and having a .38 cartridge for thepistol (having signed out blanks), indicates premeditation."
And an interesting THEORY it is…as told by a 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] party.. kinda like DD's words. A 3[SUP]rd[/SUP]party describing a situation that requires Pitzer to have filmed/photographedthe body prior to alteration of the skull… it's good we get to pick and choose who we believe.
You wrote:"Martin... we have Benavidas' brother being shot, thinking it was him,cause he SAW someone yet could not be identified as our OSWALD"
Irrelevant. Has nothing to do with the Pitzer suicide. I am sorry the simile was lost on you there Martin. A man known to have seen the Tippit killer has his look alike brother shot for not identifying Oswald (along with a great many other witnesses) while the man who filmed the pre-autopsy surgery tothe top of the skull is "suicided"…
You wrote:"In this case we have a man KNOWN to have CCTV in the morgue"
Known how? What documentation do we have of this claim?
How about the man who performed the autopsy?
Gunn:
Could you describe in a general waywhat the autopsy room looked like?
HUMES:
Routinely, at the end of a week, wewould retain the organs from the autopsies of the week. In fact, not only didwe review them there, but there was aclosed-circuit television. They went to Andrews Air Force Base, NIH, and itwas a closed-circuit instruction program.
Humes goes on to tell us that he wishes there was CCTV broadcasting that night… this is the same man who revises the time he first sees JFK from just before 8pm back to 6:45… no CHANCE he is not being truthful about the CCTV that night...
You wrote: "who shows the results to his friend DD who in turndescribes the pre-altered wounds exactly."
Years later, after many books have been published on the subject claimingthere was a big difference between what was seen at Parkland and Bethesda.
You wrote: "Why DD has not been removed from the equation has always puzzled me"
It doesn't puzzle me in the slightest. Even about the point he saw and helped deliver the 6:35 metal casket? ok
You wrote: "If you are going to say Pitzer was Suicide, in the face of evidence against such a conclusion if reviewed in the REAL world of cause and effect, I think you must also be calling DD a liar about where Pitzer was thatnight..."
David could be lying. Or he could be mistaken. It was a very long timebefore he was asked what he saw that night. Human memory is easily influencedand confused.
OR, he could be telling the truth. But since everything about this case is on the up-and-up, no reason to think Pitzer was killed… and that "Human memory" BS is just that…voodoo BS. How many movies of dead president's autopsies do you think DD saw in his life Martin? McClelland was mistaken too about the left temple wound? A man 1 foot from thewounds… but since we have no physical evidence, he too is lying along with the Father who delivered last rites?
Next you'll tell us Sirhan did it too ?? does the fact that MacDonnell did not see any of this evidence until 2001 and the rpoert is dated 2008 make a difference to you? He wasn't even there.
You wrote: "Can you point to any questions asked of any of the Bethesdawitnesses about whether Pitzer WAS there...
in all my reading I cannot remember anyone being asked about Pitzer"
IIRC William Matson Law asked some of those interviewed for his book.
So give Martin… what did they say? They don't remember? Did Pitzer even need to be in the room to turn the CCTV camera on or retrieve its output?
Here is what Douglass wrote and his sources: http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/Unspeakable/LtCmdrPitzer.html
You wrote: "Finally - since DD was not in the autopsy room... any idea why he would make this part up about Pitzer?
Or how he would know about the exact location of the wounds?"
Already addressed this point. The Parkland descriptions were published innumerous books before Dennis David told his story.
And as before you will need to offer any evidence that offer PARKLAND descriptions of the wounds other than McClelland's left temple reference. NONE of the other people in Parkland saw a bullet hole in the right temple area…NONE. So please qualify your comment....
And then please tell me who saw Dr George Bakeman USN... as he is listed as an attendee of the autopsy... any references to him by anyone else in that room would go a long way to prove how everyone was accounted for... or not. thanks.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you see any wound anywhere on his body?
Miss HENCHLIFFE - Yes; he was very bloody, his head was very bloody when I sawhim at the time.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you ever see any wound in any other part of his body?
Miss HENCHLIFFE - When I first saw him---except his head.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you see any wound on any other part of his body?
Miss HENCHLIFFE - Yes; in the neck
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5505[/ATTACH]
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
: ![[Image: sticky%20mouth.gif]](https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/images/smilies/sticky%20mouth.gif)