Q re Harvey and Lee

[Dawn Meredith]

Yesterday I had a conversation with a local researcher, known to all here, as I was told by John Armstrong that he- Robert Morrow- was trashing John's work.
Given that I am the one who got Robert started in this JFK assassination research with his first call to me abut five years ago, I called Robert to see if this was indeed the case.
Much to my surprise he informed me that he had read some of the book then threw it out, not believing a word. One of his reason's is that David Lifton and Judy Baker trash H &L. (Can't you think for yourself Robert?) .
Then he told me that much of the critical community disagrees with the work of Armstrong.
I will not post the names he named as I know this to be false, but I am posing the question here.
Is this true???

Thanks in advance.

Dawn

Ps Have a very active discussion going on re this topic on facebook. Some very good posters are only on fb. Need to consider inviting them here to add to JFK discussions.

[Jim Hargrove]

In the late 1990s, when I became interested in JA's work, David Lifton was very critical of it--and me. Haven't heard much lately, though.

Jim

[David Healy]

I suspect Mr. Morrow trashed H&L because John did not make the outright statement that LBJ was responsible for JFK's death...

p.s. David's Lifton's book on LHO was never completed, to the best of my knowledge... perhaps H&L had something to do with that.

[Magda Hassan]

...Then he told me that much of the critical community disagrees with the work of Armstrong...

And he remains blithley unaware as to his own laughable reputation in this community?

[Dawn Meredith]

To David Josephs:
May I ask you to post here all that you posted on this topic at the Ed Forum. It was fantastic.

Jim: It was at the Ed forum I recall Lifton commenting negatively on JA's work.

Dawn

[David Josephs]

Larry - appreciate and respect your position. The photo of Roscoe White in his possession listed as "A friend of Lee's in the Marine's" furthers this point.

Paul...
I completely understand and was in your position up until about 8 or so months ago when Robert and I became much more closely acquainted and I began this project to help me see the parallels.

if you or anyone would like, I took these last months and compiled an incident-by-incident, page-by-page analysis of H&L and the related Baylor materials in the format of a side by side spreadsheet table...

This is a snapshot of that work.... I have yet to see how I can upload a spreadsheet... which is truly the only way to see and work with the info... since it allows search, filter, etc...



PM me, or email me your email address and I would gladly send you a locked protected version...

I have reached a point at 12:55 on 11/22.... the facts about who Reid sees and who others see leads me to believe LEE was in DP and part of the deception.... I too do not necessarily agree with every sentence in the book, yet one needn't to see what the puzzle's picture looks like. I also have a few issues with JA's post assassination movements of LEE with relation to Tippit... yet I have not expanded on my understanding of that time frame - nor do I think there need be any contradiction in the H&L evidence prior to the assassination, with what is proposed for events that occur afterward... as presented in the book....

The spreadsheet is filled with direct quotes from the book and supporting evidence... I've downloaded scores of his Baylor notebooks and all the cd's images/docs.

This summary is imo the easiest way to digest the data and in turn find and review the supporting documentation. I express no personal opinions... I simply put the info in and if unsure, a question mark...

DJ

1957 9 12
HOW DOES HARVEY GET FROM MARINES to Antioch? Antoich College College Yellow Springs OH Antioch College

MACS1, MAG II, 1st MAW FMF Atsugi JAPAN When interviewed by the HSCA in 1978, Cyr produced his original set of Marine orders from the Commanding Officer, Marine Corps Casual Company, Department of the Pacific, Marine Barracks, United States Naval Station, Treasure Island, San Francisco, California. The list contained the names of seven Marines and their addresses, all of whom had served at Atsugi in Japan and knew Lee Oswald. They were: John E. Bordenkircher (Florida), Richard A. Bullock (Atlantic City, NJ), Russell Burton (Long Island, NY), James A. Groden (Tullahona, TN), Lance lves (Belfair, WA), Richard Korson (North Point, Ml), and Charles Benedict (Newton, MA).
NOTE: In July, 2003 JFK researcher Bill Kelley interviewed Richard A. Bullock, who 170 knew Lee Oswald in Japan. Bullock knew him as "Ozzie," and said he was 30-40 pounds heavier and 3-4 inches taller than the man accused of killing President Kennedy.Bullock said the Oswald he knew in Japan was not man accused of killing the President.

[David Josephs]

Here and above are the last two I posted...

I downloaded all my posts yet I don't think the image links remain intact...

I will see what I have and get them posted here as I can... https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/sho...#post77230
was a nice long thread where I posted quite a bit...



only 8 hours after he is officially charged with JFK's death... Hoover has agents wake Kudlaty at 7am to retrieve Oswald's records from STRIPLING JR HIGH...

Mr Kudlaty cooperates by quickly reviewing the file... noticing that Oswald was in attendance long enough to have partial grades but not long enough to have finished a term...

On Sept 5, 1954, Oswald and MO are at 1454 St. Mary's in New Orleans LA attending Beauregard JHS - according to the WCR school records
Stripling JHS is across the street from 2220 Thomas Pl... the home MO retrieves furniture from in 1947.. as well as her residence on Nov 22, 1963.


I would just like to understand what explanation is possible for the FBI and Hoover's knowledge that LHO attended Stripling at all in 1954... and why it was so urgent, the morning after the accused is formally charged, that these records are at the top of Hoover's must get list.... followed that next week with interviews of the employees of Pfisterer's related to 1957.... both well before Robert's mention of Stripling or Palmer's mention of Pfisterer's...

I urge you to review CE1961... specifically as it transitions from CE1961 (US military record) to CE1962, the report of Allen Felde. Felde is one of a number of names the WCR and beyond ignored and buried and John found, followed and uncovered... and was with HARVEY when Lee was elsewhere.

As John and I often discussed.... the evidence offered by the WCR itself proves the existence of these two people.... in the early days following the assassination, what kind of fear or need to cover-up a secret of monumental importance pushed Hoover and then the other branches of government and national security to try and bury the evidence leading to this discovery...

So whether there was a huge operation to artificially create the dual history merged to one as a false flag... or the reality of their concurrent existence....

There remains occasion after occasion where the location and actions of one contradict the other.... when this understanding finally reaches the mainstream of Conspiracy realists, and they do the due diligence required to understand... maybe, like that falsification of the autopsy evidence... H&L will be accepted and built upon, rather than snickered at and dismissed..




1947 Sept 5 Lucille HUBBARD drives MO to a house near Stripling to pick up furnitiure 2220 THOMAS PLACE Oswald's school: Benbrook Common School Grade: 2nd
(9/5/47) 1505 8th Ave Fort Worth 2nd Lily B Clayton Elementary (Ft Worth #19) Mrs Florence Murphy: LEE the leader of the 7/8yr olds; Phil Vinson recalls in 1963 article
1959 March 15 HARVEY in the "LIGHTER THAN AIR STATION" at Santa Ana while GRAF tells FBI Ely that the LHO he was with was NEVER at MCAF MACS-9 / MCAF Santa Ana CA MAG-3 El Toro, CA Allen D. Graf was transferred from North Carolina to El Toro, CA in the spring of 1959.21 He told FBI Agent Birl Wilson that he was Oswald's Platoon Sergeant for 6-8 months at Marine Air Control Group 3 (MAG 3) in El Toro. Graf remembers LEE as a VERY GOOD MARKSMAN with a score of 229, NOT 191.... and DISAGREES with the FBI report attributed to him.

MACS-9 Santa Ana and MAG-3 El Toro are not the same base but are down the road from one another

[David Josephs]

Mr. JENNER. And, at that time, I take it your brother Lee was attending Arlington Heights High School? That would be 1952?
Mr. OSWALD. Just a minute, please.
In 1952 Lee was 13 years old. He would be attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School then.
Mr. JENNER. I see. For the school year 1951-52?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Junior high school there was from the seventh to the ninth grades. And as soon as he was through with his sixth year, he started attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School.
Mr. JENNER. As soon as he finished the sixth year at Ridglea Elementary School, he entered W. C. Stripling High School, as a seventh grader?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--junior high school.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the condition that you described as to Lee shifting for himself during the daytime, when your mother was away working and you were away working, and your brother John was in the Coast Guard, continued, I take it, when he began attendance and while he was attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Stripling JR High is in Fort Worth

Mr. JENNER. You were attending--you were then 15. You were now attending high school, I assume.
Mr. OSWALD. Junior high school.
Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Fort Worth, W. C. Stripling Junior High School.
Mr. DULLES. What was the name of that?
Mr. OSWALD. W. C. Stripling Junior High School.


Now, Lee and the MO moved to NYC in 1948...
HARVEY went to PS#117 in 1952, was barely in class and had problems with the law and his truancy

at PS#44 in 1953, the attendance suddenly changes... and the ongoing court appearances for HARVEY'S behavior
while LEE, who arrived in NYC with his mother, is a model student at PS#44




ROBERT visited NYC in the summer of 1953 when Harvey was between 7th and 8th grades

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not at that time. I spent my leave in Fort Worth, because I did not feel I had enough time to travel to New York and down to Jacksonville, Fla. After completing metalsmith school at Millington, Tenn., I took a 10-day leave.
Mr. JENNER. Fix the time.
Mr. OSWALD. This was July or August of 1953. I had my orders to go to Miami, Fla. I took a 10-day leave and left Millington, Tenn., by car and came to New York City and spent 10 days in New York with Lee, mother, John, and his family.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you stay?
Mr. OSWALD. At mother's apartment, with Lee, in the Bronx some place I do not recall the address.
Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, did you learn at that time regarding Lee's attendance or nonattendance in school?
Mr. OSWALD. Nothing on that, sir. This was in the summer time. Lee, of course, was home and not supposed to be in school. And I do not think anything was brought up that I recall about whether or not Lee had been attending school regularly or not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Can we go off the record?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. (Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.
Mr. JENNER. Referring to the 10-day leave in New York City, did you spend time with your brother Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother was working during that period of time, was she not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In spending time with him, did you take him around, or accompany him, visiting various places in New York City?
Mr. OSWALD. He took me around, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion during that period to take any photographs, snapshots, of Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. I certainly can identify the one appearing in Life--yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Just hold your answers right in this area exactly to my questions.
Mr. OSWALD. I'm sorry.
Mr. JENNER. Were these taken with your camera, or was it a camera that your mother or brother owned or had?
Mr. OSWALD. This was my camera.
Mr. DULLES. What do these questions refer to? Do they refer to the pictures in Life?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I really did not want to refer to that at the moment.
Do you remember any of the places at which you took snapshots of Lee during this 10-day leave?
Mr. OSWALD. The Bronx Zoo I believe was about the only time I can recall taking any pictures of him





So, according the the WCR records and the testimony of HIS BROTHER ROBERT...

Robert KNOWS his young brother and Mother are in NYC in 1953... he visited them there first in 1952(!), and took the photo of HARVEY we see above during the summer of 1953.
The records of Oswald from Stripling are woefully incomplete... there is nothing to coroborrate Robert's testimony and insistence that his brother was in Ft Worth at the same time he is visiting them in NYC, both in Fall 1952 and Summer 1953.

Robert KNEW that Lee could not be both in NYC and Ft Worth... LEE was never there... Harvey on the other hand.....



John PIC:
Mr. PIC. So they moved out in about September 1952, maybe it was late Septemberearly October, somewhere around there, so from about somewhere betweenSeptember of 1952 and January 1953, my brother Robert came to New York on leave, and we were all invited up to the Bronx.
...
"To visit my mother and my brother..."


from Harvey and Lee, Armstrong:

The Warren Commission ignored Robert Oswald's testimony about Stripling
and concluded that "Lee Harvey Oswald"
left Fort Worth in August of 1952,
and moved to New York with his mother where he attended the 7th grade (1952-53)
and the first half of the 8th grade (fall semester, 1953).
He then moved to New Orleans where he attended the last half of the 8th grade (spring semester, 1954),
all of the 9th grade (1954-55 school year), and graduated from Beauregard in June 1955.

He briefly attended Warren Easton High School in the fall of 1955 (New Orleans), dropped out, worked in
New Orleans for the next 8 months, and then moved to Fort Worth.
According to Warren Commission version of his background, it would have been impossible
for "Lee Harvey Oswald" to have attended even a single day of school at Stripling Junior
High in Fort Worth, from September 1952 thro June 1956


Finally... the assisstant pricipal of STRIPLING JR HIGH

As I continued to locate and talk with former Stripling teachers, many suggested
that I call "Frank Kudlaty," the former assistant principal at Stripling. I telephoned Mr.
Kudlaty, introduced myself as a JFK researcher, and asked if he knew whether or not
"Lee Harvey Oswald" had attended Stripling. Without hesitation Frank said, "Yes, he
attended Stripling." Somewhat surprised I asked, "How do you know that." Frank replied,
"Because I gave his Stripling records to the FBI."Frank explained, during a videotaped interview, that before the FBI agents
arrived at Stripling on Saturday morning (November 23), he briefly reviewed Oswald's
school file. He explained that when a student enrolled in a new school, in this case at
Stripling, the previous school routinely sent copies of his school transcripts. Occasionally,
if the records were not sent, the new school would write and request copies of the
school records from the previous school. Frank said that when he examined Oswald's
file he saw neither copies of school transcripts from a previous school nor a letter from
Stripling requesting such records.

Frank said this was very unusual, as Oswald must have
attended school prior to his attendance at Stripling, yet there were no records .

Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:40 PM
I am reviving this thread after a year and change as I have spent a considerable amount of time with the subject and author.

I have concentrated on Sept 1952 thru Jan 1954 as this appears to be one of the first major discrepancies in the record for LEE HARVEY OSWALD (there are some earlier concerns over an address on San Saba whcih was purchased by LEE's mother, yet the woman remembered as living there is the short/fat mother of HARVEY.

CE1384 has some very interesting yet completely conflicting information in it.

1) Page 693 is a "7th Grade ONLY" version of the COMPLETE record found on page 697: In the real world this form is updated year to year and added to as needed, it is not rewritten when a child changes schools, moves or any other activity. Please note these are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FORMS with different handwritting - there is NO RECORD of how he got his grades at PS117 (no Cumulative record like ps44 on p.692) and NO OTHER WCE that deal with his NY schooling other than those

A bit further in the same exhibit is p.699 which is on the same form as the "7th Grade Only" form on p.693 yet this too has been COPIED OVER from the original on page 693... and then completed with the information from p.697. (whether 697 or 699 came first is unknown - what IS KNOWN is that there are two IDENTICAL records for one LEE HARVEY OSWALD.



2) The FBI reports all mention that LHO attended JHS44 for 171 FULL DAYS and 11 HALF DAYS from 3/23/53 thru 1/12/54; with a total of 18 full days ABSENT and 11 half days ABSENT. (CE1384)

From MARCH 23, 1953 thru JANUARY 12, 1954 there are only 133 TOTAL SCHOOL DAYS AVAILABLE

Furthermore... LHO was remanded to the YOUTH HOUSE on April 16th until MAY 7th. http://www.aarclibra...Vol21_0260b.htm and obviously did not attend PS44 - he is at YH for 11 SCHOOL days leaving only 122 TOTAL SCHOOL DAYS available for him to attend - NOT TO MENTION THE 18 days and the 11 half days he ALSO was absent leaving only 104 FULL SCHOOL DAYS LHO could have attended this school.


3) In 6th grade he was repeatedly described as the LEADER of the group.. the BIGGEST and STRONGEST who would fight and win in most every case. His school records from PS44 - 7trh GRADE show him as a 5'4" 114lb boy. His class picture from 6th Grade has him in the back row where most of the tallest are placed (at least that's what I remember when I was in school in the 60's). the BRONX ZOO photo, supposedly taken in the summer of 1953 (one month prior to this School Record being created) has what I found to be a standard height guard rail of the time, 36" high divided in two. Does not appear to me that HARVEY here is 10 inches taller than the 54" mark.

Furthermore, CE1384 also shows he was the same height in March 53

NOR does he look like the 6th grade LEE

Dr. Kurian was the first doctor to see LHO at the NY DOMESTIC RELATIONS Court of NY. (Dr. K goes on to be the President of the Amer Psych Assn)
The FBI never spoke to Dr. K even though he wrote a letter to Jackie in which he states:

When I saw this slender, underdeveloped boy
I sensed what was wrong. This was not a quiet and obedient
child but one who was withdrawn from the real world and
responded to outside pressures to that degree necessary to
avoid the disturbance of his residence in a fantasy world.
Dr. Kurian was surprised when told that Oswald was 13 years old as he appeared
quite small for his age and stood no more than 4-foot-6 or 4-foot-8 (Dr. Kurian was 5-foot-7).



This photo is taken in Aug. 53 Dr. K sees LHO in March/April 53

There is more, much more, even from just this very small window of time including the Oct/Nov visit of John Pic and Robert Oswald to the 1455 Sheridan address in the Bronx. While John describes the isit vividly with he and his wife fixing Robert up on a double date... Robert claim NEVER to have been in NY until late 1953. At this "dinner" LHO does not join the family for dinner, does not speak to anyone, and what was once a very close relationship with John stemming from time spent together at John's apartment in Manhattan, has deteriorated into a very cold and indifferent shoulder to his oldest brother.

John Pic correctly picks HARVEY from LEE in the LIFE mag spread he is questioned about.

Mr. JENNER - Then right below that is a picture of a young man standing in front of an iron fence, which appears to be probably at a zoo. Do you recognize that?
Mr. PIC - Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald.













Here is a map to get an idea of the locations wer are talking about from the Trinity School, to Jacobi, to JHS 117 & 44, the PIC apartment and the two locations MO/LHO lived.

DISCLAIMER: ALL OF THIS INFORMATION IS STRAIGHT OUT OF THE WCR AND WCDs. THE ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS FROM EACH OF THESE SCHOOLS ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE AS THEY WERE PICKED UP BY ASST DIRECTOR MALONE OF THE FBI WITHIN 20 HOURS OF THE ASSASSINATION (PRIOR TO ANY DISCUSSION WITH MO ABOUT WHERE LHO WENT TO SCHOOL WHICH OCCURS IN EARLY DECEMBER). ALL THAT ARE LEFT ARE THE FBI COPIES AND UNSIGNED FBI REPORTS FOR THAT TIME.

Posted 13 September 2013 - 12:10 PM
Now onto September 14, 1953...

We've seen how the records for an OSWALD child are woefully incorrect.
That the Truant/YOUTH HOUSE child could not attend PS44 for the # of days offered, between MArch 23, 1953 and June 1, 1953 (end of semester) as his attendence records start up again on Sept 14, 1953.

On Sept 24, 1953 (after 9 days of school) His mother tells Carro http://www.aarclibra...Vol19_0163b.htm that LHO is doing better and has been elected CLASS PRESIDENT ... She also confirms his stay at YOUTH HOUSE from April 16 thru May 7th which again, is not reflected on the attendance records but DOES confirm he was NOT at PS44 during this time.

There are only 50 days of School between March 23, 1953 and June 1, 1953 and we KNOW he did not attend at all from Jan 16, 1953 thru March 22, 1953....
So how exactly can LHO attend 109 days of school in the span of time with only 50 days available?


Progress reports from the school continue to be very derogatory for this CLASS PRES... who was in 8th grade not 9th at the time - unless we are talking about two different people...

9/24/53 : Mrs. Oswald telephoned on this date, to state that she would be unable
to appear in court. She pointed out that she felt that there is no necessity
for her to return to court as the boy has made a marvelous adjustment . Lee re
turned to school on May 7th and had a very good attendance record thereafter. At
the present time he is in the 9th grade at P.S . 44 and recently had the honor of being
elected class president.

10/21/53 : Progress which was requested on 10/16/53 from P.S . 44 received on this
date . Boy indicates that since the term commenced he has been present in school
21 3/2 days and absent 1-3/2 days. His conduct is described as unsatisfactory. The
school reports that the child has shown no improvement . Mrs. Oswald does not
cooperate with the school authorities. She did not answer to a summons to come
to school about her son's welfare . ("During the past 2 weeks practically every subject
teacher has complained to me about the boy's behavior . He has consistently refused
to salute the flag during early morning exercises . In many rooms he has he done
no work whatsoever . He spends most of his time sailing paper planes around the
room. When we spoke to him about his behavior, his attitude was belligerent. I
offered to help him he brushed out with, "I don't need anybody's helpt .") (Signed)
H. Rosen, Teacher)

12/21/53 : Material on Lee Oswald returned from Court Clinic this date. A letter
was attached indicating that the family's lawyer to inform us that the family is
moving to New Jersey. (Material filed in case record .)

Yet when we see the same sequence of events presented as WCE2223 - the "Family Lawyer's Letter" and mention of moving to NJ are removed...

MO tells Carro that she "has to move from NY" but gives no reason... and is gone on Jan 12th.
One wonders with what car and what money does MO and LEE leave NYC... ??

12/17/53 Received telephone call from Mrs. Oswald who stated that she
found our card on returning home from work and wished to know
the reason for our contact . Explained to her that Mr. Carro,
probation officer of the Children's Court had asked that become interested
in her son Lee. She seemed quite disturbed stating something to the effect
that how long was this thing going to last because since the boy had returned
from Youth House, he had been attending school each day and from all accounts doing well.
Could sense that Mrs . Oswald was rather disturbed about
this matter and tried to give her an idea of what the Big Brother program
was. She seemed to calm down considerably and suggested that Lee stop in
at the office some time during the Christmas holidays . She did not take
too kindly to this idea and advised that we would stop in at the home some
evening as soon as possible .

12/23/53
Called at the home of Lee Oswald but no one was at home . Will
call again.

[Jim Hargrove]

David,

Thanks for these WONDERFUL posts... and particularly the composite graphics which you are SO good at!

You should put together a website with your take on JA's work. The more the merrier! We could start referencing one another and maybe slide up the Google pop charts a bit.

One of the reasons John's research was so original surely had to do with his methodology. Rather than being satisfied to read the research of others, he set out to put his hands on every original piece of evidence he could get.

And so he bought a microfilm reader and purchased the full set of FBI reports on the Kennedy assassination from UMI and went through them as meticulously as possible. Like the best of other researchers, he personally interviewed eyewitnesses to the Oswald legend, and he also travelled to the National Archives, wore the little white "evidence gloves," and looked at as many original pieces of evidence as he could get his hands on.

Remember the Minox "spy" camera that magically became a Minox light meter in FBI custody? John held in his gloved hands the Minox camera from the JFK assassination collection at the archives that somehow escaped the attention of the FBI. He said the little camera was much heavier than it should have been, as if it was filled with glue, or resin, or cement of some sort. Because of that special filling, no doubt, the camera could no longer slide open, thus making it impossible to read the serial number. John said the camera will no longer be given to researchers.

Jim Hargrove
http:harveyandlee.net

[Jim DiEugenio]

I don't agree with everything in the book. And I wish John had let me look at it first.

But, there is no doubt that it is a valuable and unique contribution to the field. And anyone who dismisses it out of hand shows their ignorance because there is stuff in that book that you will not find anywhere else.

To give one example: John's analysis of Mexico CIty is one of the best there is. And his chronicles of the bus rides down and back is unparalleled. In fact, I don't see how anyone can read that and still think there is no question Oswald was on the bus. Which is where I have a disagreement with people like Hancock and Simpich. It is not a done deal that Oswald was in Mexico City and did the things the WC said he did.

Secondly, John's discussion of the MC rifle is a quantum leap forward. No one ever did that before. Third, his review of the alleged REA delivery of the handgun is also unique.

I could go on and on, but its a book much worth reading.