FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK

[Bob Prudhomme]

A good lesson in not trusting evidence from experts. Maybe Frazier took a caliper reading from a slightly warped side of the imperfect magic bullet. There's no excuse for the math error though.

All you would really need to know is that the available Western Cartridge ammunition was .264 standard.

Was the .2677 diameter Carcano bullet the same width as the Carcano lands?

I think we went over this before. Frazier spoke about the Magic Bullet, CE 399, being slightly flattened on the base and, for this reason, he also measured the unfired bullet in the cartridge found in the chamber of C2766 on the 6th floor. Of course, after the FBI purchased their own WCC 6.5mm Carcano ammo, they could measure all the bullets they wanted to. I don't believe it was a math error. I believe Frazier measured the diameter of the bullet at 6.65 mm and, instead of converting to inches, simply looked up the diameter in inches in a textbook.

If the WCC bullets really did measure 6.65 mm, then they would have been ridiculously inaccurate in a Carcano rifle, as 6.65 mm = .2618" or .262".

As Dave Emary said in the article, the twenty Carcano rifles he measured were all between .268" and .269" across the grooves. The measurement across the lands in a Carcano is .256", as it is in all 6.5mm calibre rifles.

[John Lewis]

I believe the CIP information does show that the MS rifle possesses a groove diameter with a mandated minimum of .2669 - Mr Lewis says that can stretch even further and closer to .268

If this information is accurate it would disprove the claim that the Carcano was the only rifle with a .268 groove diameter.


Michael, I'm not sure if you're following the arguments.

Albert

Read the thread "Carcano Rifles". You will have a much better understanding of what is going on. The article I quoted is written by Dave Emary, who is the Chief Ballistic Scientist at Hornady Mfg. As the article reveals, Mr. Emary feels strongly that the accuracy of the Carcano rifles suffered shooting bullets that were .264" in diameter, such as those made by the Western Cartridge Company, and the situation was not rectified until Hornady began making .268" diameter bullets (.2675", to be precise) in 2002.

I know that everyone on these forums continually demands that our sources be qualified or certified or licenced. If the chief ballistic scientist of a major ammunition manufacturing company does not qualify in your eyes, I don't know what else I can do.

Hornady; the company to whom you referred only a few posts previously to as being 'disinfo' agents are now your preferred ballistic experts.

I would also raise a not insignifiant point; that being, do you actually have evidence that the WCC ammo used a .264" bullet? I'm not aware that you have produced any evidence to that effect. You do not own any of this ammunition so are not qualified to comment. In fact, the ONLY reference to it that I can recall on this thread is a link to an ammunition collectors discussion board where a chap who has actually measured some says that they have a .266" bullet.

JL.

[John Lewis]

I don't think Oswald shot any bullets that day. However can it be safely said that the C2766 carbine allegedly used by Oswald that day had a .268 groove diameter? And that the Western Cartridge ammunition alleged to have been used that day was definitely .264? If so then we would safely be within the inaccuracy claims by Mr Emary despite any discrepancies over which Mannlichers had a .268 groove diameter and which ones didn't.

If C2766 had a groove diameter larger than .268", it could only be for one or more of the following reasons:
1. The barrel was worn from excessive use.
2. The barrel was corroded or rusted from improper storage in a damp environment.
3. The barrel was mis-manufactured.

A groove diameter greater than .268" in a Carcano rifle would only make the problem worse.

The Western Cartridge Co. bullets have been measured by reliable (non-disinfo agent) sources and found to be .264" in diameter.

None of 1 to 3 above is particularly controversial, none of that can be said to be particularly relevant. Evn if an originally and properly manufactured Carcano barrel had been grossly corroded it would still not be 'proof' that a bullet fired from it would have been so innaccurtate at to have been incapable of hitting JFK. It is not a great feat of engineerng to get a bullet to spin and even a very corroded or worn barrel can do it.

We still have to remember that Bob quite clearly called me a liar because I said that my rifle had a .268" groove diemeter and that a .268" groove diameter cannot stabilise a .264" bullet. This is bollocks, quite franky, as my rifle (along with every oyher M/S rifle) does it perfectly adequately.

As this has been stated by Bob, but not proofed; could Bob please provide evidence as to whom the persons are who have measured the bullets in WCC ammo as being .264"?

JL

[John Lewis]

I don't think Oswald shot any bullets that day. However can it be safely said that the C2766 carbine allegedly used by Oswald that day had a .268 groove diameter? And that the Western Cartridge ammunition alleged to have been used that day was definitely .264? If so then we would safely be within the inaccuracy claims by Mr Emary despite any discrepancies over which Mannlichers had a .268 groove diameter and which ones didn't.

Albert

The best confirmation we have of the Western Cartridge Company bullets being .264" in diameter (or less) comes from the Warren Commission testimony of the FBI's firearms expert, SA Robert A. Frazier.

Here is an excerpt from post #5 of this thread, by me:



"And now the best part, SA Robert Frazier testifying to the WC:

"Mr. EISENBERG - Yes; for the record, these cartridges were found on the sixth. floor of the School Book Depository Building. They were found near the south east corner window--that is, the easternmost window on the southern face of the sixth floor of that building.
Mr. Frazier, are these cartridge cases which have just been admitted into evidence the same type of cartridge-- from the same type of cartridge as you just examined, Commission Exhibit No. 141?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; they are.
Mr. EISENBERG - That is, 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano, manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co.?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG - You gave the weight of the bullet which is found in this type of cartridge. Could you give us a description of the contour of the bullet, and its length?
Mr. FRAZIER - The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length--possibly it would be better to put it in inches rather than millimeters The diameter is .267 inches, and a length of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches.

Okay, now, Frazier, the great firearms expert, measured CE 399 and found it to be 6.65 mm in diameter or, as he testifies, ".267 inches". The actual diameter of a real Carcano bullet is .2677" and is normally rounded off to .268".

But, that is not the problem here. The problem here is that while Frazier may have measured the bullet and found it to be 6.65 mm, 6.65 mm does not equal .267". If you go to this handy dandy conversion site http://www.onlineconversion.com/length_common.htm and use their calculator, you will see that 6.65 mm equals .2618", not .267". In other words, not only did Frazier like to stretch the truth, he was a bit on the lazy side as well. He measured the bullet diameter in millimetres but never did the conversion to inches. He likely read the measurement of .267" in a text and assumed 6.65 mm would equal .267".

However, as there is no bullet on the planet that measures 6.65 mm in diameter, I compared the diameter of CE 399 in the photo to the Metric scale above it and found the diameter closer to 6.7 mm. Now, if we process that, we find that 6.7 mm = .263779" or *SURPRISE!!!* .264", the standard diameter of every 6.5mm bullet in the world except the Carcano, and exactly the bullet I suspected was loaded into the WCC ammunition."


Don't you just love it, Albert?

All of these measurements are extrapolated from a single, fired projectile. Do you know how difficult it is to arrive at the precise diameter of a projectile that has been bent out of shape after (allegedly) having passed through two people, several layers of clothes and whatever else?

This is not proof of the diameter of an unfired bullet from a WCC 6.5x52mm cartidge. To date the only evidence of that is from a link that I posted from a chap who actually owns some. He says that the bullets measure .266", not .264". is he a 'disinfo' agent Bob?

JL

[John Lewis]

A good lesson in not trusting evidence from experts. Maybe Frazier took a caliper reading from a slightly warped side of the imperfect magic bullet. There's no excuse for the math error though.

All you would really need to know is that the available Western Cartridge ammunition was .264 standard.

Was the .2677 diameter Carcano bullet the same width as the Carcano lands?

I think we went over this before. Frazier spoke about the Magic Bullet, CE 399, being slightly flattened on the base and, for this reason, he also measured the unfired bullet in the cartridge found in the chamber of C2766 on the 6th floor. Of course, after the FBI purchased their own WCC 6.5mm Carcano ammo, they could measure all the bullets they wanted to. I don't believe it was a math error. I believe Frazier measured the diameter of the bullet at 6.65 mm and, instead of converting to inches, simply looked up the diameter in inches in a textbook.

If the WCC bullets really did measure 6.65 mm, then they would have been ridiculously inaccurate in a Carcano rifle, as 6.65 mm = .2618" or .262".

As Dave Emary said in the article, the twenty Carcano rifles he measured were all between .268" and .269" across the grooves. The measurement across the lands in a Carcano is .256", as it is in all 6.5mm calibre rifles.

And yet the Carcano bullet produced by Hornady (a company whom you have previously dismissed as 'disinfo' agents) is actually marketed as .267" (as previously linked to a few posts back) and is, despite your wailings, even smaller in reality.

I find it somewhat strange that you seem to be Hornady's foremost advocate when they publish what seems to be what you seem to want to promote but not the other way around. You claim to be be an arch 'disinfo' enemy yet seem quite happy to believe any marketing puffery that a bullet company decides to put out as long as it meets with what you want to promote. Don't you think that it's pretty obvious that Hornady would employ their 'scientist' to say that their new bullet was the greatest thing since sliced bread? Do you honestly belive that there are huge numbers of people who havn't been able to hit a barn door with their Carcano rifles whilst standing on the lock because all the bullets they could get were .004" too small and so had to wait for 60 years plus for Hornady to rectify the situation?? If so then you are seriously deluded, mate.

To ask again; can you provide your source as to whom has actually measured an unfired bullet from a WCC 6.5x52 cartridge and whom can confirm that it does indeed measure .264"? To date we have only the link I gave and that chap says that they measure .266".

You also say that a .262" bullet fired through a barrel with a .256" bore diameter and with a .268" bore would be 'ridiculously inaccurate'. What is your evidence for that? Have you personally tried it?

By the way; didn't you say that you were 'out' of this discussion?


JL.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Somebody boot this troll. Please.

[Bob Prudhomme]

I don't think Oswald shot any bullets that day. However can it be safely said that the C2766 carbine allegedly used by Oswald that day had a .268 groove diameter? And that the Western Cartridge ammunition alleged to have been used that day was definitely .264? If so then we would safely be within the inaccuracy claims by Mr Emary despite any discrepancies over which Mannlichers had a .268 groove diameter and which ones didn't.

Albert

The best confirmation we have of the Western Cartridge Company bullets being .264" in diameter (or less) comes from the Warren Commission testimony of the FBI's firearms expert, SA Robert A. Frazier.

Here is an excerpt from post #5 of this thread, by me:


Please try not to swear old boy, it really makes you come over as quite the fool.
"And now the best part, SA Robert Frazier testifying to the WC:

"Mr. EISENBERG - Yes; for the record, these cartridges were found on the sixth. floor of the School Book Depository Building. They were found near the south east corner window--that is, the easternmost window on the southern face of the sixth floor of that building.
Mr. Frazier, are these cartridge cases which have just been admitted into evidence the same type of cartridge-- from the same type of cartridge as you just examined, Commission Exhibit No. 141?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; they are.
Mr. EISENBERG - That is, 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano, manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co.?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG - You gave the weight of the bullet which is found in this type of cartridge. Could you give us a description of the contour of the bullet, and its length?
Mr. FRAZIER - The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length--possibly it would be better to put it in inches rather than millimeters The diameter is .267 inches, and a length of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches.

Okay, now, Frazier, the great firearms expert, measured CE 399 and found it to be 6.65 mm in diameter or, as he testifies, ".267 inches". The actual diameter of a real Carcano bullet is .2677" and is normally rounded off to .268".

But, that is not the problem here. The problem here is that while Frazier may have measured the bullet and found it to be 6.65 mm, 6.65 mm does not equal .267". If you go to this handy dandy conversion site http://www.onlineconversion.com/length_common.htm and use their calculator, you will see that 6.65 mm equals .2618", not .267". In other words, not only did Frazier like to stretch the truth, he was a bit on the lazy side as well. He measured the bullet diameter in millimetres but never did the conversion to inches. He likely read the measurement of .267" in a text and assumed 6.65 mm would equal .267".

However, as there is no bullet on the planet that measures 6.65 mm in diameter, I compared the diameter of CE 399 in the photo to the Metric scale above it and found the diameter closer to 6.7 mm. Now, if we process that, we find that 6.7 mm = .263779" or *SURPRISE!!!* .264", the standard diameter of every 6.5mm bullet in the world except the Carcano, and exactly the bullet I suspected was loaded into the WCC ammunition."


Don't you just love it, Albert?

All of these measurements are extrapolated from a single, fired projectile. Do you know how difficult it is to arrive at the precise diameter of a projectile that has been bent out of shape after (allegedly) having passed through two people, several layers of clothes and whatever else?

This is not proof of the diameter of an unfired bullet from a WCC 6.5x52mm cartidge. To date the only evidence of that is from a link that I posted from a chap who actually owns some. He says that the bullets measure .266", not .264". is he a 'disinfo' agent Bob?

JL

...you know damn well Frazier measured the unfired cartridge's bullet, PLUS the FBI purchased WCC 6.5 Carcano ammo. What kind of idiot, besides you, would measure a fired bullet?

[John Lewis]

I don't think Oswald shot any bullets that day. However can it be safely said that the C2766 carbine allegedly used by Oswald that day had a .268 groove diameter? And that the Western Cartridge ammunition alleged to have been used that day was definitely .264? If so then we would safely be within the inaccuracy claims by Mr Emary despite any discrepancies over which Mannlichers had a .268 groove diameter and which ones didn't.

Albert

The best confirmation we have of the Western Cartridge Company bullets being .264" in diameter (or less) comes from the Warren Commission testimony of the FBI's firearms expert, SA Robert A. Frazier.

Here is an excerpt from post #5 of this thread, by me:



"And now the best part, SA Robert Frazier testifying to the WC:

"Mr. EISENBERG - Yes; for the record, these cartridges were found on the sixth. floor of the School Book Depository Building. They were found near the south east corner window--that is, the easternmost window on the southern face of the sixth floor of that building.
Mr. Frazier, are these cartridge cases which have just been admitted into evidence the same type of cartridge-- from the same type of cartridge as you just examined, Commission Exhibit No. 141?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; they are.
Mr. EISENBERG - That is, 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano, manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co.?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG - You gave the weight of the bullet which is found in this type of cartridge. Could you give us a description of the contour of the bullet, and its length?
Mr. FRAZIER - The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length--possibly it would be better to put it in inches rather than millimeters The diameter is .267 inches, and a length of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches.

Okay, now, Frazier, the great firearms expert, measured CE 399 and found it to be 6.65 mm in diameter or, as he testifies, ".267 inches". The actual diameter of a real Carcano bullet is .2677" and is normally rounded off to .268".

But, that is not the problem here. The problem here is that while Frazier may have measured the bullet and found it to be 6.65 mm, 6.65 mm does not equal .267". If you go to this handy dandy conversion site http://www.onlineconversion.com/length_common.htm and use their calculator, you will see that 6.65 mm equals .2618", not .267". In other words, not only did Frazier like to stretch the truth, he was a bit on the lazy side as well. He measured the bullet diameter in millimetres but never did the conversion to inches. He likely read the measurement of .267" in a text and assumed 6.65 mm would equal .267".

However, as there is no bullet on the planet that measures 6.65 mm in diameter, I compared the diameter of CE 399 in the photo to the Metric scale above it and found the diameter closer to 6.7 mm. Now, if we process that, we find that 6.7 mm = .263779" or *SURPRISE!!!* .264", the standard diameter of every 6.5mm bullet in the world except the Carcano, and exactly the bullet I suspected was loaded into the WCC ammunition."


Don't you just love it, Albert?

All of these measurements are extrapolated from a single, fired projectile. Do you know how difficult it is to arrive at the precise diameter of a projectile that has been bent out of shape after (allegedly) having passed through two people, several layers of clothes and whatever else?

This is not proof of the diameter of an unfired bullet from a WCC 6.5x52mm cartidge. To date the only evidence of that is from a link that I posted from a chap who actually owns some. He says that the bullets measure .266", not .264". is he a 'disinfo' agent Bob?

JL

...you know damn well Frazier measured the unfired cartridge's bullet, PLUS the FBI purchased WCC 6.5 Carcano ammo. What kind of idiot, besides you, would measure a fired bullet?

The first part of that extract appears to be talking about cartridge CASES, not unfired ammo. They specifically use that word.

Also, when he does talk about speciic measurements he uses the measurement of .267". It isn't specifcally clear whether he meaasured in millimeters and converted to inches or measured in inches and converted to millimeters. Now,he being American, I'd say it was far more likely that the latter is actually the case. As you say, no 6.5mm bullet measure 6.65mm so that is clearly wrong. He couldn't have measured 6.65mm so I'd say that it is just his mistaken conversion from .267".

If you think that you can accurately measure a squished, fired bullet to the nearest thoasandth of an inch by comparing it against a ruler in the picture then you are in a complete fantasy mate.

You still cannot avoid that fact that it is not a certainty (nor even particularly likely, in my opinion) that a rifle with a .268 groove diameter firing a .264 bullet will be so inaccurate as to not be able to hit someone only a few yards away. You also still haven't acknowledged that you were compley wrong in saying that my MS rifle had a groove of .264 and called me a liar when I said otherwise. Your entire line of debate here is to simply abuse anyone who dares to disagree with you.

JL.

[Albert Doyle]

I think Mr Emary should be consulted. Is there any way to contact him and ask him where he got his .264 measure?


How can a .264 bullet be shot through a lands of .256? Does the pressure force the excess into the grooves therefore assuring good grip for the rifling spin?


Mr Lewis, we have Frazier's measurement showing .264 when the conversion is correctly done. Frazier measured an unfired bullet. I would also suggest Mr Emary was a fairly reasonably credible source and would not risk such a claim if it were that easily disproven.


.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Quote:

"Don't you think that it's pretty obvious that Hornady would employ their 'scientist' to say that their new bullet was the greatest thing since sliced bread?"

Hornady, right along with all of their competitors, sold bullets for the 6.5mm Carcano that were .264" in diameter for decades. The introduction of a .268" bullet for the Carcano stood a very good chance of making this very obvious; hardly what one would call good advertising. As the market for 6.5mm Carcano cartridges is obviously quite limited, and cornering such a market would hardly make Hornady a profit, if it made a profit at all, wouldn't they have been better off just keeping their mouths shut, and continuing to make .264" bullets for the Carcano?

And, should the idea catch on, what is to stop their competitors from making .268" bullets for the Carcano, and taking back the "massive" 6.5mm Carcano market?