The Truth about the WC at Last

[Albert Doyle]

The main problem with Oswald being in the Altgens photo is that he denies it himself, and tells Fritz and the boys he was in the lunchroom. Why would Oswald give up a verifiable alibi for a less verifiable one?

I agree. Fetzer, of course, would say Oswald told Fritz he was "Out on the front steps with Shelley". However that isn't an honest interpretation of Fritz's shorthand that says after all the lunchroom business Oswald went out - with Shelley being on the front steps when he did.

None of this really answers how several other Depository witnesses could put Oswald getting change from the secretaries on the 2nd floor at the time of the shooting. Or even DiEugenio's analysis of Carolyn Arnold's statement that really said "12:25" as the time she witnessed Oswald sitting in the lunchroom. The problem doorway Oswald advocates have is they have to get Oswald from the lunchroom at 12:25 down to the front steps unwitnessed. Have him out there unwitnessed, and then back upstairs unwitnessed.

Meanwhile if you look at the Prayerman photo people are headed towards the Depository steps. The photo exists in a dynamic scene where, at this time in the assassination, people are headed towards the Depository entrance. That makes it nearly impossible that Oswald would not be witnessed by the numerous people that would have to be shoulder to shoulder with him in the Depository front door when he went back inside.

[Bob Prudhomme]

The main problem with Oswald being in the Altgens photo is that he denies it himself, and tells Fritz and the boys he was in the lunchroom. Why would Oswald give up a verifiable alibi for a less verifiable one?

I agree. Fetzer, of course, would say Oswald told Fritz he was "Out on the front steps with Shelley". However that isn't an honest interpretation of Fritz's shorthand that says after all the lunchroom business Oswald went out - with Shelley being on the front steps when he did.

None of this really answers how several other Depository witnesses could put Oswald getting change from the secretaries on the 2nd floor at the time of the shooting. Or even DiEugenio's analysis of Carolyn Arnold's statement that really said "12:25" as the time she witnessed Oswald sitting in the lunchroom. The problem doorway Oswald advocates have is they have to get Oswald from the lunchroom at 12:25 down to the front steps unwitnessed. Have him out there unwitnessed, and then back upstairs unwitnessed.

Meanwhile if you look at the Prayerman photo people are headed towards the Depository steps. The photo exists in a dynamic scene where, at this time in the assassination, people are headed towards the Depository entrance. That makes it nearly impossible that Oswald would not be witnessed by the numerous people that would have to be shoulder to shoulder with him in the Depository front door when he went back inside.

Albert

Please quote your sources (statements or testimony) that show any witnesses stating Oswald was on the 2nd floor getting change from secretaries at the time of the assassination. By "time of the shooting", I assume you are saying Oswald was obtaining change at 12:30?

Please explain how Fritz's shorthand notes, written at least a week after the interrogation, and verified by no one, are a reliable source of evidence.

Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald in the 1st floor lunch room, not the 2nd floor lunchroom, at 12:25. Please explain why you think it would be difficult for Oswald to make the short trip from the 1st floor lunch room to the front steps, prior to the assassination and, with everyone's attention drawn to Elm St. and JFK's imminent arrival, go unnoticed by the people on the steps.

Please address the point I made in my response to you; how Buell Wesley Frazier can be seen looking directly at "Prayer Man" in the film capture, yet have no recollection of seeing a person in that location. Perhaps that will help you understand how none of the other witnesses were able to recall seeing Oswald at the top of the steps.

[Albert Doyle]

Albert

Please quote your sources (statements or testimony) that show any witnesses stating Oswald was on the 2nd floor getting change from secretaries at the time of the assassination. By "time of the shooting", I assume you are saying Oswald was obtaining change at 12:30?

Please explain how Fritz's shorthand notes, written at least a week after the interrogation, and verified by no one, are a reliable source of evidence.

Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald in the 1st floor lunch room, not the 2nd floor lunchroom, at 12:25. Please explain why you think it would be difficult for Oswald to make the short trip from the 1st floor lunch room to the front steps, prior to the assassination and, with everyone's attention drawn to Elm St. and JFK's imminent arrival, go unnoticed by the people on the steps.

Please address the point I made in my response to you; how Buell Wesley Frazier can be seen looking directly at "Prayer Man" in the film capture, yet have no recollection of seeing a person in that location. Perhaps that will help you understand how none of the other witnesses were able to recall seeing Oswald at the top of the steps.

Oswald getting change was from Groden's quote of Geneva Hine.


Carolyn Arnold:

When I found Mrs. Arnold in 1978 to get a firsthand account, she was surprised to hear how she had been reported by the FBI. Her spontaneous reaction, that she had been misquoted, came BEFORE I explained to her the importance of Oswald's whereabouts at given moments. Mrs. Arnold's recollection of what she really observed was clear--spotting Oswald was after all her one personal contribution to the record of that memorable day. As secretary to the company vice- president she knew Oswald; he had been in the habit of coming to her for change. What Mrs. Arnold says she actually told the FBI is very different from the report of her comments and not vague at all. She said: "About a quarter of an hour before the assassination [12:15], I went into the lunchroom on the second floor for a moment . . . . Oswald was sitting in one of the booth seats on the right-hand side of the room as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I did not speak to him but I recognized him clearly." Mrs. Arnold has reason to remember going into the lunchroom. She was pregnant at the time and had a craving for a glass of water. (14:77)

It is very important to note that the Nazi criminals who call themselves our FBI took the liberty of changing Mrs Arnold's quote from 12:25 to "about a quarter of an hour before the assassination." When Arnold saw her FBI account years later she said she told them 12:25.

Fritz was there. What's important is the fact Fritz described the lunchroom business and then mentioned going out of the building with Shelley in front last. As if he were describing everything Oswald did up to leaving the building.

You can't use Frazier for anything. He was gotten to at the hospital and made to toe the line under threat of being railroaded as an accomplice.


Meanwhile in the other thread I mentioned that your version requires Oswald to be in the bottleneck of the entryway into the Depository. At that juncture he would have to be shoulder to shoulder, face to face with many people. Saying people were looking forward doesn't cut it because the dynamic involved necessitates people moving around and funneling into the doorway. If you look at all known Oswald spottings in the assassination they have a predictable percentage of witnesses who all mentioned seeing him. That average remains pretty consistent throughout the assassination. However when we apply that template to the alleged Prayerman Oswald we get zero sightings. None. This is at direct odds with the statistical average for sightings. Especially for being right in the middle of Times Square as far as the assassination.

With all respect Bob, I think you should be answering the questions here not me.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Albert

Please quote your sources (statements or testimony) that show any witnesses stating Oswald was on the 2nd floor getting change from secretaries at the time of the assassination. By "time of the shooting", I assume you are saying Oswald was obtaining change at 12:30?

Please explain how Fritz's shorthand notes, written at least a week after the interrogation, and verified by no one, are a reliable source of evidence.

Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald in the 1st floor lunch room, not the 2nd floor lunchroom, at 12:25. Please explain why you think it would be difficult for Oswald to make the short trip from the 1st floor lunch room to the front steps, prior to the assassination and, with everyone's attention drawn to Elm St. and JFK's imminent arrival, go unnoticed by the people on the steps.

Please address the point I made in my response to you; how Buell Wesley Frazier can be seen looking directly at "Prayer Man" in the film capture, yet have no recollection of seeing a person in that location. Perhaps that will help you understand how none of the other witnesses were able to recall seeing Oswald at the top of the steps.

Oswald getting change was from Groden's quote of Geneva Hine.


Carolyn Arnold:

When I found Mrs. Arnold in 1978 to get a firsthand account, she was surprised to hear how she had been reported by the FBI. Her spontaneous reaction, that she had been misquoted, came BEFORE I explained to her the importance of Oswald's whereabouts at given moments. Mrs. Arnold's recollection of what she really observed was clear--spotting Oswald was after all her one personal contribution to the record of that memorable day. As secretary to the company vice- president she knew Oswald; he had been in the habit of coming to her for change. What Mrs. Arnold says she actually told the FBI is very different from the report of her comments and not vague at all. She said: "About a quarter of an hour before the assassination [12:15], I went into the lunchroom on the second floor for a moment . . . . Oswald was sitting in one of the booth seats on the right-hand side of the room as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I did not speak to him but I recognized him clearly." Mrs. Arnold has reason to remember going into the lunchroom. She was pregnant at the time and had a craving for a glass of water. (14:77)

It is very important to note that the Nazi criminals who call themselves our FBI took the liberty of changing Mrs Arnold's quote from 12:25 to "about a quarter of an hour before the assassination." When Arnold saw her FBI account years later she said she told them 12:25.

Fritz was there. What's important is the fact Fritz described the lunchroom business and then mentioned going out of the building with Shelley in front last. As if he were describing everything Oswald did up to leaving the building.

You can't use Frazier for anything. He was gotten to at the hospital and made to toe the line under threat of being railroaded as an accomplice.


Meanwhile in the other thread I mentioned that your version requires Oswald to be in the bottleneck of the entryway into the Depository. At that juncture he would have to be shoulder to shoulder, face to face with many people. Saying people were looking forward doesn't cut it because the dynamic involved necessitates people moving around and funneling into the doorway. If you look at all known Oswald spottings in the assassination they have a predictable percentage of witnesses who all mentioned seeing him. That average remains pretty consistent throughout the assassination. However when we apply that template to the alleged Prayerman Oswald we get zero sightings. None. This is at direct odds with the statistical average for sightings. Especially for being right in the middle of Times Square as far as the assassination.

With all respect Bob, I think you should be answering the questions here not me.

I went through Geneva Hines' WC testimony again and, although she testified that Oswald came by most days at noon (not 12:30) to get change for the Coke machine, she makes no mention of seeing him on 22/11/63. Perhaps you could share with us any information you have that would contradict her WC testimony?

I'm a little confused here about Buell Wesley Frazier and I hope you can help me on this. If Frazier was "gotten to" at the hospital and threatened into silence, wouldn't that mean there was a very good possibility he had not only seen but actually conversed with Oswald on the top steps of the TSBD entrance, but was too frightened to tell anyone? For that matter, how do you know that other witnesses on the steps (ie. Lovelady, Shelley, etc.) weren't also "gotten to"?

And "Fritz was there" is supposed to impress us? His shorthand notes, as I told you earlier, were not written for at least a week after the assassination. The 2nd floor lunch room encounter with Truly and Baker had already been concocted, so Fritz writing this down a week later means nothing.

---

From Captain Fritz' Warren Commission testimony...
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to Oswald and what he said to you?
Mr. FRITZ. I can remember the thing that I said to him and what he said to me, but I will have trouble telling you which period of questioning those questions were in because I kept no notes at the time, and these notes and things that I have made I would have to make several days later, and the questions may be in the wrong place...

[Drew Phipps]

There's only 3 explanations I can think of that account for all the facts of the crowd at the entrance:

One: Lovelady decided to wear Oswald's shirt to the motorcade. (Why? I'm not going there.)

Two: Witnesses were threatened or bribed to keep their mouth shut about Oswald. (A. Oswald denied it (as far as we can tell) B. threatened (or bribed) witnesses tend to change their stories as the threat (or the memory of the bribe) recedes, so I'm not satisfied with that either.))

Three: the Altgens photo was either faked from the get go, or "magically" photographically modified within minutes before it could be wired by AP around the world. (both seem unlikely without either superpowers, Photoshop, or Altgen's active participation.)

[Bob Prudhomme]

There's only 3 explanations I can think of that account for all the facts of the crowd at the entrance:

One: Lovelady decided to wear Oswald's shirt to the motorcade. (Why? I'm not going there.)

Two: Witnesses were threatened or bribed to keep their mouth shut about Oswald. (A. Oswald denied it (as far as we can tell) B. threatened (or bribed) witnesses tend to change their stories as the threat (or the memory of the bribe) recedes, so I'm not satisfied with that either.))

Three: the Altgens photo was either faked from the get go, or "magically" photographically modified within minutes before it could be wired by AP around the world. (both seem unlikely without either superpowers, Photoshop, or Altgen's active participation.)

Hi Drew

I think you are confusing two separate topics here. Albert and I were discussing the presence of a figure referred to as "Prayer Man", not whether the figure seen and ID'ed in the Altgens 6 photo as Billy Lovelady was actually Oswald.Prayer Man would be out of sight in the Altgens 6 photo.

[Drew Phipps]

Oswald could not have been "Prayer Man" or "Big Ears Guy Wearing Oswald's Shirt" if he was in the 2nd floor lunchroom drinking a coke at 12:25 and also within 90 seconds after the shooting. (He couldn't have been in the snipers nest either.)

Harold Weisberg was convinced that Oswald is in the Altgens picture. I'm convinced he's not. He's either shooting Kennedy or he's in the 2nd floor lunchroom drinking a coke. Either way he isn't Prayer Man either.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Oswald could not have been "Prayer Man" or "Big Ears Guy Wearing Oswald's Shirt" if he was in the 2nd floor lunchroom drinking a coke at 12:25 and also within 90 seconds after the shooting. (He couldn't have been in the snipers nest either.)

Harold Weisberg was convinced that Oswald is in the Altgens picture. I'm convinced he's not. He's either shooting Kennedy or he's in the 2nd floor lunchroom drinking a coke. Either way he isn't Prayer Man either.

Drew

You are confused again. Carolyn Arnold did not see Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room; she saw him in the 1st floor lunch room. She was quoted by the lying FBI as seeing him there at 12:15, yet, years later when she saw how she had been misquoted, swore up and down she had seen him there at 12:25 and had said so to the FBI. It is only a few seconds walk from the 1st floor lunch room to the front entrance, where the steps are.

No one here is saying Oswald is in the Altgens photo.

[Drew Phipps]

"Subsequently however, Arnold would claim that the FBI had misquoted her and that she had actually seen Oswald on the second floor, not the first (Summers, p.60)." Cited by Don Thomas.

You're not now suggesting that she was right about one misquote and wrong about the other?

In an interview with the journalist Earl Golz in 1978, Carolyn Arnold claimed that "she saw Oswald in the 2ndfloor lunchroom as she was on her way out of the depository to watch the presidential motorcade …. She left the building at 12:25pm." (Earl Golz, Was Oswald in Window?,' Dallas Morning News, 26 November 1978, p.13A;

The investigative journalist, Anthony Summers, also interviewed Carolyn Arnold in late 1978. He quotes her as saying that "About a quarter of an hour before the assassination, I went into the lunchroom on the second floor", where she saw Oswald; see Anthony Summers, Not in Your Lifetime: The Assassination of JFK, Headline, 2013, p.92.

And this:

In a statement to the Sheriff's Department, Eddie Piper, a colleague of Oswald's, claimed that he was on the first floor when, "at 12:00 Noon, this fellow Lee says to me, I'm going up to eat'" (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.19, p.499

[Drew Phipps]

This is also an interesting snippet from Carolyn Arnold if not directly pertinent to this discussion:

Affidavit:
"I left the Texas School Book Depository Building at about 12:25 PM, November 22, 1963, and never returned to this building on that date.
I have read the above statement consisting of one and onehalf pages and it is true and correct to the best of my knowledge.
Mrs. R. E. (CAROLYN) ARNOLD"