Dunkirk

[Fred Steeves]

I'm looking as deeply as I know how and where into what really happened at the Battle of Dunkirk the beginning of WW 2, and I got to thinking it might be an interesting topic to bring up here. For starters I'm not seeing any "good guys" in this war, and it doesn't take a whole lot of open minded scratching below the surface to see how preposterous the propaganda was all around.

What bothered me concerning Dunkirk was Hitler's inexplicable decision to pause his armor for approximately 2 1/2 days, right when he had his life long dream of a united German empire squarely in his clutches. I'm sure the supply lines WERE stretched rather thin at this critical juncture, the men were tired, equipment needing maintenance, boggy terrain, etc.. But, since when in military strategy, when you have your foot on your enemy's throat, do you not follow through and crush it anyway?

I'm having a real tough time finding where Hitler ever had designs on England at any time (much less the U.S.), especially as he had his sights set east and not west. It's not so difficult at all though to find him singing the praises of England, and that they should join together in the empire business. If this is what he really wanted, then of course he's not going to crush those 350,000 helpless soldiers on the beach and in the harbor. You wouldn't do that to someone you thought would make an ideal ally would you?

Now I don't know if this is really true or not, but it sure looks that way. At the very least it makes a lot more sense than the British story of the "Miracle at Dunkirk". So what I'm looking for here is anyone else who may have looked into this, who maybe has some tips on other places to do some digging around. I've read enough of "Mein Kampf" to know of Hitler's mindset (at least in the 20's), William Shirer's "Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich" certainly has some good stuff, and David Irving claims to have in his possession original documents to back up what he's saying, but I've yet to see them.

All I'm looking for here is the truth, not to prove my assumptions correct. So, what's a good direction for further follow up on this?


Thanks,

Fred

[Tracy Riddle]

It's pretty well-established that Hitler wanted an alliance or an understanding with the Anglo powers, who he saw as related to the "Aryan-German" peoples. Hitler was not a naval thinker, and had no interest in an overseas empire. He was willing to let Britain keep its overseas colonies, while he just wanted to control most of continental Europe.

[Drew Phipps]

Might I respectfully suggest that the financial dealings of Germany and its industries provide some insight into Hitler's backers' motives, and how that might have affected his war plans.

Here is an excellently researched article about Prescott Bush and his financial dealings with the Nazis:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/se...ndworldwar

And this one, for the Bank of England giving Hitler 20+ tons of gold, and incidentally, what Allen Dulles did during the war:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/bank-...le....html

[Fred Steeves]

It's pretty well-established that Hitler wanted an alliance or an understanding with the Anglo powers, who he saw as related to the "Aryan-German" peoples. Hitler was not a naval thinker, and had no interest in an overseas empire. He was willing to let Britain keep its overseas colonies, while he just wanted to control most of continental Europe.

I've pretty much come to the same conclusion so far as that aspect of it is concerned Tracy.

Might I respectfully suggest that the financial dealings of Germany and its industries provide some insight into Hitler's backers' motives, and how that might have affected his war plans.

Here is an excellently researched article about Prescott Bush and his financial dealings with the Nazis:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/se...ndworldwar

And this one, for the Bank of England giving Hitler 20+ tons of gold, and incidentally, what Allen Dulles did during the war:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/bank-...le....html

I knew about the Prescott Bush/Wall Street connections Drew, but not about the Bank of England and Dulles' involvement. Very interesting link, and hardly surprising... You know, the deeper I look into the murky Dunkirk happenings, the more my attention is drawn away elsewhere, usually towards the bigger picture. There's lots of high level double crossing going on by all sides, and it's just a matter of who's doing the double crossing at any given time.

One thing looks pretty certain to me though, and it's that there was going to be another World War whether anybody wanted one or not. What I'm less certain about, but what I highly suspect, is that Hitler was absolutely stunned at England's/Churchill's behavior from Dunkirk forward. He was a street savvy and well studied man, so how did he not see this coming? My hunch is that someone had Hitler's ear. Someone that he trusted implicitly, but also someone that he should never have trusted. Could be wrong though, we'll see.


Cheers

[David Guyatt]

I'm not sure this is going to help a great deal, Fred, but there certainly was a lot of behind-the-scenes action going on with Hitler.

The curious death if Prince George, Duke of Kent, in a flying boat "accident" in 1942 is one subject you might wish to visit because it was no accident - Churchill had him killed for trying to sneak off with Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess. The Hess who died in Spandau prison in 1987 was a double killed on order from the British (see "The Murder of Rudolf Hess" by Hugh Thomas for the evidence. Also a Indy article in September 2013 that discussed the reality of this). Hess arrived for "negotiations" in may 1941. He was killed by George Arthur Frank Frost, a Commando who worked directly for Churchill (this has been shown by his son, Martin Frost, a former spook on his website www.martinfrost.ws -- although it will take some searching as it's a vast website and not at all well organised). It is also set pout in the book by Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince in their book Double Standards - The Rudolf Hess Cover-up.

The foregoing will provide some background that connects to this. Also 1940 - The Secret War at Shingle Street, which provides evidence to show that Hitler did try to invade Britain but failed miserably, with many of his troops being terribly burned as they sailed through a petrol and oil booby-trapped North Sea.

Although I have not read it myself, I understand that the Dunkirk Miracle is fairly well discussed in Louis Kilzer's book "Churchill's Deception - The Dark Secret that Destroyed Nazi Germany", which was about Churchill convincing Hitler to turn his war machine against Russia instead of Great Britain. A personal anecdote on this: I remember a very old Italian gentleman - if that is the correct description - in his Nineties, who a decade or more ago told me the story when he was in the presence of Churchill's war secretary, Anthony Eden, during 1941 when it was announced that Hitler's had invaded Russia (Barbarossa). Eden slapped his knees in absolute delight and said, "we've won the war, we've won the war".

I'm sure there is a great deal of available information on this on the internet if you try Googling and patiently sift through all the twaddle to find the real nuggets.

From memory I think there is also some interesting information on this forum too, about this subject.

[Drew Phipps]

My hunch is that someone had Hitler's ear. Someone that he trusted implicitly, but also someone that he should never have trusted. Could be wrong though, we'll see.


Cheers

Maybe Hitler had his own CIA/Bay of Pigs moment when his intelligence service convinced him that the English would rise up against Churchill...?

[Fred Steeves]

The curious death if Prince George, Duke of Kent, in a flying boat "accident" in 1942 is one subject you might wish to visit because it was no accident - Churchill had him killed for trying to sneak off with Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess.

Huh, I've never heard of this incident David. Quite the interesting little tidbit I'll squirrel away. It certainly does fit the standard modus operandi of how these matters are handled.

The Hess who died in Spandau prison in 1987 was a double killed on order from the British (see "The Murder of Rudolf Hess" by Hugh Thomas for the evidence. Also a Indy article in September 2013 that discussed the reality of this). Hess arrived for "negotiations" in may 1941.

IIRC it was Goering (was that really him as well?) who commented at Nuremburg that the man was not Rudolf Hess. Lots of doubles and actors running around out there, I mean hell, for all we know Saddam Hussein was never hung... The whole Hess story has always bothered me though, there's just something not quite right there (besides the double thing). Namely, the part about him being captured by a surprised farmer at the point of a pitchfork. I'll put myself in his shoes. I'm preparing to hop in my Messerschmitt to go on as dangerous a mission as you can get, which to even begin it I have to survive over a great deal of enemy territory, and I'm not even going to pack the standard trusty .45 side arm for just in case?

Tell you what, if I'm Hess out there in who knows where Scotland gathering up my chute, and a pitchfork bearing farmer approaches me in a menacing manner, well then guess what? He's fixin to be one dead fucking farmer. The trusty .45 will ensure the mission continues, at least for a little while longer.To allow himself to be captured in this embarrassing fashion would be borderline incompetence, I'm just not seeing it.

The foregoing will provide some background that connects to this. Also 1940 - The Secret War at Shingle Street, which provides evidence to show that Hitler did try to invade Britain but failed miserably, with many of his troops being terribly burned as they sailed through a petrol and oil booby-trapped North Sea.

Wow, that's quite a story. I read through the material, pictures and all, and David, I get the same feeling I get with the Hess thing. Some things are just not adding up there. Not saying I don't believe it outright, but it raises some very serious questions. The following is a good example:

Adolf Hitler had been set on the idea of the quiet conquest of Britain for some time; a country as rich in history as his own and with its own empire. Agents had been deployed in the years leading up to the outbreak of war to covertly gather as much intelligence as was possible.

I'm more than prepared to be corrected, but from everything I've seen in the month I've been looking at this, the above is correct except for one small thing. Hitler wanted England to capitulate on her own. She would keep her military and empire intact, and she would also teach him the old English trick of ruling vast numbers of people (i.e. India) with relatively very few of your own. He would also be free to turn his full attention eastward toward his traditional enemy, Russia.

The following also bothered me:

By the night of the invasion however, news of the unusual troop build up in the French and Belgian ports had not gone unnoticed by British intelligence. Our response was to covertly add fortifications to selected parts of the East Anglian coast.

-SNIP-

There are several theories regarding how the sea defences were laid off the coast at Shingle Street, but there is evidence to suggest that the army laid concrete roads over the pebble banks of the shoreline in order to carry the lorries needed. Remnants of the road structure still exist today.

This would be a huge undertaking, and impossible to hide or disguise. So is German intelligence, sitting comfortably right across the channel, simply asleep at the wheel? No reconnaissance or "word of mouth" ? Nothing? Zip, zero, zilch? This would be even worse than Hess being taken prisoner at pitchfork point. How could they not know? Also, how could they not, at the very least, suspect that British intel would pick up on their port mobilizations? I certainly would, and I bang nails for a living...

One Saturday late in August 1940, the flotilla of small vessels commandeered by the German army set out across the North Sea. Although small in size, the flotilla was picked up by RADAR operating from air bases in Suffolk and Essex, not least by the newly completed RADAR at Bawdsey manor which had the ability to see far past the visible horizon to the boats as they left the French and Belgian coasts.

A pre-emptive air strike was launched and the RAF engaged the flotilla whilst still some hours from the English coast. The air strike is thought to have decimated the German forces quite considerably. Resolved to continue however, the remainder of the flotilla made for land, reaching a stretch of desolate coastline off Shingle Street.

Using RADAR and aerial surveillance, the flotilla's course and time of arrival had been anticipated and an unknown number of allied troops were
laying in wait.

I'm sorry, but this all just sounds like too much of a hack operation to be credible. The Nazis were a lot of things, but stupid was not amongst them. A small flotilla of small vessels, with no air support, operating with zero intelligence as to what awaits them, not knowing the flotilla would be displayed live on radar, and still they carry on with the mission, despite having already been "decimated" by the RAF?

Although I have not read it myself, I understand that the Dunkirk Miracle is fairly well discussed in Louis Kilzer's book "Churchill's Deception - The Dark Secret that Destroyed Nazi Germany", which was about Churchill convincing Hitler to turn his war machine against Russia instead of Great Britain. A personal anecdote on this: I remember a very old Italian gentleman - if that is the correct description - in his Nineties, who a decade or more ago told me the story when he was in the presence of Churchill's war secretary, Anthony Eden, during 1941 when it was announced that Hitler's had invaded Russia (Barbarossa). Eden slapped his knees in absolute delight and said, "we've won the war, we've won the war".

I must be missing something here David. So far as I have seen anyway, Hitler had his sights set on Russia from the very get go, and just got sidetracked being forced into duking it out with England. Is British intel the ones asleep at the wheel this time? Why would Eden be so surprised by this news, and why would Churchill feel he needed to "convince" Hitler to invade Russia in the first place? This to me, would be the equivalent of feeling one needs to "convince" a dog into eating a chewy treat.

Just stating my personal observations, and asking the questions that are popping up here. That's what I do, observe, question, and repeat the process as required. So again, if I'm really missing the boat here (which does happen from time to time lol) on some key elements, I am anxious to uncover (or have uncovered for me) what they are.

From memory I think there is also some interesting information on this forum too, about this subject.

I did do a cursory check by typing "battle of dunkirk" into the forum search box, but nothing of consequence came up. If you or anyone else knows of more on this on the forum, I would be most appreciative to be pointed in the right direction.

My hunch is that someone had Hitler's ear. Someone that he trusted implicitly, but also someone that he should never have trusted. Could be wrong though, we'll see.


Cheers

Maybe Hitler had his own CIA/Bay of Pigs moment when his intelligence service convinced him that the English would rise up against Churchill...?

When we get right down to it, how much of his upper echelon intelligence was really even his? The Brits have been at this for a very long time, the Nazis were the new kid on the block. Perhaps the Nazis had Intel 101 down pat, but the Brits had 202 long since under their belt...

[David Guyatt]

Fred, my own personal take on the Shingle Street story is that it was a major raid in the manner of the Dieppe raid - a sort of scoping exercise to see how an actual invasion might turn out. I've been there many times. Even today it's just a handful or two of tumble-down fishing cottages - no shops or stores. It's not easy to get to, down a long windy narrow country lane and because of its closeness to the heavily fortified Naval port of Felixstowe, it would've been deemed a sensitive area and therefore closed by the military.

I find the story about Barbarossa credible. As I said, that Italian gentleman's story was off the cuff and quite unexpected. He was remembering. Why would Eden react that way? Because the British trick worked. It was nip and tuck and all about the timing. Hitler was encouraged to eat the elephant first and then come back later to nibble the mouse. But as we know he couldn't digest the elephant, and even if he could by 1942/3, US forces were flooding into Britain following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour - and the chance had gone.

The main deterrent to Hitler's invasion of Britain in 1941 was losing the Battle of Britain. This gave the UK air superiority and that seriously impacted on Operation Sea Lion - of which the airborne aspect was now seriously jeopardized.