CIA Targets Education Forum, Conspiracy Section.

[Tosh Plumlee]

posted on EF Forum

Hopsicker's information and his book is total BS.., and I have told him that, as well as this Forum and anybody else who would listen... as a result I was called "..a Dickhead", by Hopsicker, and he posted on the internet for awhile, ("The Dickheads must be getting Nervous" refering to me as being CIA disinformation) because I would not embrace his book and support it.

And too, he wrote in his book "... he would never believe any thing I (Plumlee) have ever said...", because I would not go along with his theory about Seal, Ops 40, the Mexico picture, and JFK and the activities at Redbird Airport in Oakcliff (Dallas TX).

I do not plan on getting into a pissing match over this... I do not have the time for such debates that go nowhere. If some are really interested in such crap, then they can go back and read what I have had to say about Operation 40 and the Cuban Desk as well as Wave Station aka' Miami Station"... also I have never said Tracy Barns was assigned to JM/WAVE... I have always said he was in Washington DC, at Langley... However the Experts know better than I... and we will let it go at that.

If you want to be known as an "Expert" on Black OPs, or any other matters.., and have a theory... then self publish a book and put all kinds of rumors, opinions, theories, ect.., in it..., and because someday later its found in a book, then you will be quoted as an expert on the subject matter. Although your information is badly flawed, lacks Facts and void of solid references, but because it is found in print, then it must be true. To me this is a dis service to history and the truth thereof. AND I want no part of being associated with that type of research.

[Peter Lemkin]

posted on EF Forum

Hopsicker's information and his book is total BS.., and I have told him that, as well as this Forum and anybody else who would listen... as a result I was called "..a Dickhead", by Hopsicker, and he posted on the internet for awhile, ("The Dickheads must be getting Nervous" refering to me as being CIA disinformation) because I would not embrace his book and support it.

And too, he wrote in his book "... he would never believe any thing I (Plumlee) have ever said...", because I would not go along with his theory about Seal, Ops 40, the Mexico picture, and JFK and the activities at Redbird Airport in Oakcliff (Dallas TX).

I do not plan on getting into a pissing match over this... I do not have the time for such debates that go nowhere. If some are really interested in such crap, then they can go back and read what I have had to say about Operation 40 and the Cuban Desk as well as Wave Station aka' Miami Station"... also I have never said Tracy Barns was assigned to JM/WAVE... I have always said he was in Washington DC, at Langley... However the Experts know better than I... and we will let it go at that.

If you want to be known as an "Expert" on Black OPs, or any other matters.., and have a theory... then self publish a book and put all kinds of rumors, opinions, theories, ect.., in it..., and because someday later its found in a book, then you will be quoted as an expert on the subject matter. Although your information is badly flawed, lacks Facts and void of solid references, but because it is found in print, then it must be true. To me this is a dis service to history and the truth thereof. AND I want no part of being associated with that type of research.

Tosh, calma amigo. We'd like to know what you can tell us about the photo and the real deal on Op 40 and/or its supposed players - what they were really doing or not. I'm not wed to Hopsicker's take. I just want to know. I don't believe you've identified anyone in the photo except yourself, but I could be wrong. Someone suggested:
Tosh Plumlee second on right
Felipe de Diego third on right
George Robreno fourth on right
Barry Seal third on left
What was the occassion and the mission just finished or about to begin? If you can't say, can you suggest why? [here or privately]. I can easily see why you don't like Hopsicker. Forget him and help us understand this history you LIVED and we try to know about.........

[Tosh Plumlee]

I would really like to help... But at this late date its useless... I did go into detail with you and Jim Marrs long ago... And I have posted the total facts as to what I know or knew about OPS 40 and how it came into being..., I have been called a liar and a fabicator and now you want me to go into the details again..., I have done all I can in reference to OPS Forty.. In short... It started with forty people from the White House Situations Room meetings; with a meeting with some vets from the BoP. It was an Intel Operation and had nothing to do with assassinations or sabotage.... It was never a JM/WAVE Operation... It was a CUBAN OPERATION and pinned to WAVE STATION (Miami Station) It reported to two places The Pentagon and the White House (or I should say three) Langley. The 5412th group was the lead contact. And the CIA only acted as logistical support.

If you care to talk to JIM perhaps he can confirm (if he remembers) what we talked about when we numbered the FOIA documents we received from Bud Finisterwald Jr. One thing was the OPs forty and how it came into being.... but you guy's did not believe what I had told you... You Pete, if I remember right, wanted it to be a JFK hit team and that I had flown them into Dallas... remember we had a falling out over that as well as other points of which you could not or would not buy at the time. You said I was, "holding out on you"... and being "less than truthful...". I remember.


Well, today I do not care to get into debates over any of that. Its like a dog chasing its tail.... perhaps it will be in the book Deep Cover Shallow Graves... and then again maybe not... it all depends. I wish I coulkd help more... but I have no desire to get sucked into the JFK matter again... I am off to Mexico City. In my view A man has no future until he can escape or put the past behind him... the JFK matter has been covered by the "Experts" just read their books...

[Linda Minor]

I would really like to help... But at this late date its useless... I did go into detail with you and Jim Marrs long ago... And I have posted the total facts as to what I know or knew about OPS 40 and how it came into being..., I have been called a liar and a fabricator and now you want me to go into the details again..., I have done all I can in reference to OPS Forty.. In short... It started with forty people from the White House Situations Room meetings; with a meeting with some vets from the BoP. It was an Intel Operation and had nothing to do with assassinations or sabotage.... It was never a JM/WAVE Operation... It was a CUBAN OPERATION and pinned to WAVE STATION (Miami Station) It reported to two places The Pentagon and the White House (or I should say three) Langley. The 5412th group was the lead contact. And the CIA only acted as logistical support.

If you care to talk to JIM perhaps he can confirm (if he remembers) what we talked about when we numbered the FOIA documents we received from Bud Finisterwald Jr. One thing was the OPs forty and how it came into being.... but you guys did not believe what I had told you... You Pete, if I remember right, wanted it to be a JFK hit team and that I had flown them into Dallas... remember we had a falling out over that as well as other points of which you could not or would not buy at the time. You said I was, "holding out on you"... and being "less than truthful...". I remember.

Well, today I do not care to get into debates over any of that. Its like a dog chasing its tail.... perhaps it will be in the book Deep Cover Shallow Graves... and then again maybe not... it all depends. I wish I could help more... but I have no desire to get sucked into the JFK matter again... I am off to Mexico City. In my view A man has no future until he can escape or put the past behind him... the JFK matter has been covered by the "Experts" just read their books...

As an "amateur" historian, I have to agree 100% with what Tosh said. I have argued repeatedly that the OSS was not set up until 1939, and the CIA only came into being in 1947, yet they get blamed for everything bad going on in intelligence ops today. That just can't be. If one studies the reorganization statutes, it is obvious that the charts kept changing in order to roll old groups into new entities, but it seems that the chain of command on the old groups retained its own autonomy of secrecy not shared with anyone without the "need to know". So historians have to be content with tracing the money back to the original source and discover the truth in that way. Too many researchers have just stopped when they find links to CIA without going back prior to 1939.

Here's one thread from EF involving what Tosh said about Operation 40:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index....5861&st=30

Earlier in that thread:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index....5861&st=15
Operation 40: Part 3

In his autobiography, Spymaster: My Life in the CIA, Ted Shackley defended his relationship with Vang Pao. Shackley claimed that he attempted to “coexist with him without being seared by his breath”. He admitted that some would argue: “Coexist with narcotics traffickers! Just as we always thought! He should have been wiping them out.” Shackley goes on to point out: “only rogue elephants charge at everything in their path, and the CIA was never such an animal…. The mission that had been handed me was to fight a war in northern Laos against the Pathet Lao and the NVA and to interdict, along the Laotian part of the Ho Chi Minh Trial, the flow of military manpower and material from North Vietnam to the battlefields of South Vietnam. My plate was full.” (36)

Shackley’s critics argued that he went much further than co-existing with the drug traffickers in Laos. According to Edith Holleman and Andrew Love: “In addition to his opium trafficking operation, Vang Pao carried out an assassination program, on information and belief under the auspices of Theodore Shackley and Thomas Clines. Partially funded by Vang Pao’s opium income, the program eliminated civilian functionaries and supporters of the Pathet Lao, as well as Vang Pao’s rival opium warlords.” Holleman and Love go onto argue that Shackley brought “Rafael ‘Chi Chi’ Quintero and Rafael Villaverde, along with Felix Rodriguez, to Laos, to train members of Vang Pao’s Hmong tribe to perform assassinations against Pathet Lao leaders and sympathizers.” (37)

Once again, members of Operation 40 were being funded from outside the CIA. Money was paid to eliminate people who posed a threat to their profits. David Morales and Carl Jenkins were also involved in this assassination program. Morales had told Ruben Carbajal that he had killed people in “Vietnam, in Venezuela, in Uruguay and other places”. (38) Jenkins was another member of what Gene Wheaton had called the CIA "off-the-reservation gang". (39) As Warren Hinckle and William Turner had pointed out in Deadly Secrets, members of Operation 40 were “assassins-for-hire”. In this case it was Vang Pao. Who else made use of this service? In 1968 two important political leaders were assassinated in the United States? Had they been victims of Operation 40?

In December, 1968, Shackley became Chief of Station in Vietnam and took over Phung Hoang (Operation Phoenix). In his autobiography, Shackley denied he was the “godfather of Phung Hoang”. In fact, Shackley claims he did not approve of this program that involved the killing of non-combatant Vietnamese civilians suspected of collaborating with the National Liberation Front. However, according to Shackley, the Director of the CIA, Richard Helms, insisted that “we are not free agents” and that the CIA rather than the United States Army had to run Operation Phoenix. (40) Other members of Operation 40 in Vietnam at this time included Thomas Clines, David Morales, Rip Robertson and Félix Rodríguez. Two other members of the “Secret Team” in Vietnam with Shackley were John Singlaub and Richard Secord.

Shackley claims that Phoenix was set up in November 1966. This was over two years before Shackley arrived in Vietnam. This is true. However, it was Shackley who turned it into an “assassination unit”.

[Peter Lemkin]

I would really like to help... But at this late date its useless... I did go into detail with you and Jim Marrs long ago... And I have posted the total facts as to what I know or knew about OPS 40 and how it came into being..., I have been called a liar and a fabicator and now you want me to go into the details again..., I have done all I can in reference to OPS Forty.. In short... It started with forty people from the White House Situations Room meetings; with a meeting with some vets from the BoP. It was an Intel Operation and had nothing to do with assassinations or sabotage.... It was never a JM/WAVE Operation... It was a CUBAN OPERATION and pinned to WAVE STATION (Miami Station) It reported to two places The Pentagon and the White House (or I should say three) Langley. The 5412th group was the lead contact. And the CIA only acted as logistical support.

If you care to talk to JIM perhaps he can confirm (if he remembers) what we talked about when we numbered the FOIA documents we received from Bud Finisterwald Jr. One thing was the OPs forty and how it came into being.... but you guy's did not believe what I had told you... You Pete, if I remember right, wanted it to be a JFK hit team and that I had flown them into Dallas... remember we had a falling out over that as well as other points of which you could not or would not buy at the time. You said I was, "holding out on you"... and being "less than truthful...". I remember.


Well, today I do not care to get into debates over any of that. Its like a dog chasing its tail.... perhaps it will be in the book Deep Cover Shallow Graves... and then again maybe not... it all depends. I wish I coulkd help more... but I have no desire to get sucked into the JFK matter again... I am off to Mexico City. In my view A man has no future until he can escape or put the past behind him... the JFK matter has been covered by the "Experts" just read their books...

Have a whiskey and calm down, Tosh. Just to set the record straight, All my notes [even tapes of you talking about all this - and transcripts] are not anywhere near me now, but are preserved; and my memory hast runneth over on some things.

N.B. I never 'wanted' anything regarding the flight or your involvement in events of Dallas but the Truth - and that goes for all other aspects of your life and the lives and operations of others, as well. Of course I looked at it from all angles and asked questions and played devil's advocate from all angles. I always then, and still do, go with the facts [best I can adjudge them and support them] - only the facts. Additionally, in our contract was the unusual condition that if you didn't agree with something Jim and/or I wrote you would be able to have you own 'take' on it in the book. I'd call that fair. I was working toward a minimum, and hopefully zero such, but assumed there might be one or two. Where I differed from your take, I also was going to so state(giving my/our take and your take, presented side by side - with the supporting evidence for each). Fair?

All that said, yes, I generally recall your take on Op 40 being much as you have briefly rendered it in the last days and some two years ago on the EF.

So, relax.

[Linda Minor]

In December, 1968, Shackley became Chief of Station in Vietnam and took over Phung Hoang (Operation Phoenix). In his autobiography, Shackley denied he was the “godfather of Phung Hoang”. In fact, Shackley claims he did not approve of this program that involved the killing of non-combatant Vietnamese civilians suspected of collaborating with the National Liberation Front. However, according to Shackley, the Director of the CIA, Richard Helms, insisted that “we are not free agents” and that the CIA rather than the United States Army had to run Operation Phoenix. (40) Other members of Operation 40 in Vietnam at this time included Thomas Clines, David Morales, Rip Robertson and Félix Rodríguez. Two other members of the “Secret Team” in Vietnam with Shackley were John Singlaub and Richard Secord.

Since I believe we have to "follow the money" backwards, what do we know about Richard McGarrah Helms? Why not start with his grandfather, Gates McGarrah.

http://jaxrevenge.blogspot.com/2007/12/g...er-to.html

Gates W. McGarrah resigned as chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York to become the first Chairman of the Bank of International Settlements. His grandson was none other than Richard McGarrah Helms, CIA Deputy Director of Plans at the time of the JFK Assassination. JFK was a staunch opponent of the Federal Reserve Bank. Fancy that....Gates W. McGarrah, president of the B. I. S. (Bank for International Settlements) at Basle, Switzerland, which has replaced the defunct office for reparation payments in Berlin (TIME, Sept. 23, et seq.). Switzerland has worked wonders with Tycoon McGarrah. When he reluctantly resigned as board chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York to go abroad and try to make the Young Plan work, no clam was closer, no Scotsman more cautious, dour. There was danger then lest reporters trap Mr. McGarrah into what could be construed as an admission that the B. I. S. might become "The World Bank," the omnivorous big brother, the dread competitor of the central banks of the world's nations.

http://jaxrevenge.blogspot.com/2007/12/r...ction.html
The grandfather of former Central Intelligence Agency Director Richard McGarrah Helms, an international financier named Gates White McGarrah, "was a member of the board of directors of the Astor Foundation which owned Newsweek prior to its sale to the Washington Post Company in 1961, according to Katharine The Great by Deborah Davis. The same book also revealed that in 1961 Bradlee "is said to have heard from his friend Richard Helms, who heard it from his grandfather that Newsweek would be put up for sale." Bradlee then obtained a check from the Washington Post Company head at the time, Philip Graham, for $1 million, to give to former CIA Director Helms' grandfather as a downpayment for the purchase of Newsweek.

McGarrah died in 1940, one year after the OSS was created by FDR to gather intelligence about the war in Europe. If you look at the men who were recruited, you have to assume the purpose of the intelligence was to protect American investors (bankers) who had bought assets in or made loans to Europe.

November 5, 1940
New York—(AP)—Gates W. McGarrah, 77, one of the country's leading bankers for more than 30 years, died today in Doctors hospital after a short illness. Known at the age of 28 as the youngest bank president in the United States, he served subsequently as chairman of the Federal Rescue Bank here and as president of the Bank for International Settlement, Basel, Switzerland,
until 1933. He was stricken Thursday at his offices. Gates White McGarrah rose rapidly from a clerkship in a small financial conditions in the various
countries.
Early in 1933, McGarrah tendered his resignation to become effective in May at the end of the bank's fiscal year. The directors asked him to retain his post until the end of the world economic conference in London and, a month
later at the directors' meeting, vainly sought a withdrawal of the resignation.
McGarrah pleaded his advanced years and said he felt out of place in a foreign country. He insisted on resigning and Leon Fraser, vice president of the bank and also an American, was elected to succeed him.

[Charles Drago]

As an "amateur" historian, I have to agree 100% with what Tosh said. I have argued repeatedly that the OSS was not set up until 1939, and the CIA only came into being in 1947, yet they get blamed for everything bad going on in intelligence ops today. That just can't be.

And I agree with Linda's sentiment reproduced above.

Recently here in Rhode Island, Brown University made headlines by distancing itself formally from all remembrances and celebrations of Columbus, and otherwise by repudiating the explorer's deplorable treatment of the aboriginal peoples he encountered on his travels to the New World.

I publicly commented that, in doing so, Brown helps perpetuate the "Blame the Patsies" approach to history.

The admirals should not be the focus of our attentions, but rather the kings and financiers who sent them to sea. In the time of Columbus and later, and as Smedley Butler would agree, exploration was a racket.

Who here truly believes that the OSS and CIA are anything other than the tools of the kings and financiers?

[Tosh Plumlee]

Thank You both... From my POV I see it much the same way. AND that does not mean I am a 'CIA disinformation expert'. I have often said there is much more to these chain of events than what some have reported. Which ones do we HANG... the ones that did the deeds or the ones who order the deeds to be done? Should it be both?

I know from experience if I was told to go into an operation and it conflicted with my moral judgment and I refused.., then that was curtains for me and nobody would ever hear about my 'moral judgments". Did I compromise myself? Did I loose my integrity? I see it as saving my life in order to fight another day. Perhaps that day has come.

I could have said 'Fxxx YOU'.... BUT,those would have been the last words I would have ever said. I have always said ; "...there is another world out there, in the world of intelligence, and the average person working the 9 to 5 shift cannot even began to comprehend its structure...".

From my "point of view' its a very simple matter.., a very simple world. To find the root cause of all the questions some may have, or want to ask... you have to put yourself in that world and live the trade, and co mingle with the misfit and the assassins before you can make comment, or ... are qualified to make comment, or even ask the questions concerning the morality of the issues or the question.


Again Thank you both for your dedication toward finding the truth which has been surppressed for so long.... Tosh


.

[David Guyatt]

Shackley’s critics argued that he went much further than co-existing with the drug traffickers in Laos. According to Edith Holleman and Andrew Love: “In addition to his opium trafficking operation, Vang Pao carried out an assassination program, on information and belief under the auspices of Theodore Shackley and Thomas Clines. Partially funded by Vang Pao’s opium income, the program eliminated civilian functionaries and supporters of the Pathet Lao, as well as Vang Pao’s rival opium warlords.” Holleman and Love go onto argue that Shackley brought “Rafael ‘Chi Chi’ Quintero and Rafael Villaverde, along with Felix Rodriguez, to Laos, to train members of Vang Pao’s Hmong tribe to perform assassinations against Pathet Lao leaders and sympathizers.” (37)

Once again, members of Operation 40 were being funded from outside the CIA. Money was paid to eliminate people who posed a threat to their profits. David Morales and Carl Jenkins were also involved in this assassination program. Morales had told Ruben Carbajal that he had killed people in “Vietnam, in Venezuela, in Uruguay and other places”. (38) Jenkins was another member of what Gene Wheaton had called the CIA "off-the-reservation gang". (39) As Warren Hinckle and William Turner had pointed out in Deadly Secrets, members of Operation 40 were “assassins-for-hire”. In this case it was Vang Pao. Who else made use of this service? In 1968 two important political leaders were assassinated in the United States? Had they been victims of Operation 40?

In December, 1968, Shackley became Chief of Station in Vietnam and took over Phung Hoang (Operation Phoenix). In his autobiography, Shackley denied he was the “godfather of Phung Hoang”. In fact, Shackley claims he did not approve of this program that involved the killing of non-combatant Vietnamese civilians suspected of collaborating with the National Liberation Front. However, according to Shackley, the Director of the CIA, Richard Helms, insisted that “we are not free agents” and that the CIA rather than the United States Army had to run Operation Phoenix. (40) Other members of Operation 40 in Vietnam at this time included Thomas Clines, David Morales, Rip Robertson and Félix Rodríguez. Two other members of the “Secret Team” in Vietnam with Shackley were John Singlaub and Richard Secord.

Shackley claims that Phoenix was set up in November 1966. This was over two years before Shackley arrived in Vietnam. This is true. However, it was Shackley who turned it into an “assassination unit”.

I think this private/renegade angle was what James Richards was talking about in another thread elsewhere on this forum.

[Peter Lemkin]

SO MANY of the operations thought to be under the umbrella of CIA or other sister agencies were really off-the-shelf/privatized and run semi-autonimously to nearly rogue. That said many had a wink and nod and/or logistical or financial or intelligence or obfuscation support from the Company before/during/after. Some, like Wilson are classics. Some very much inside the Agency were made to look like ther were not. Most were not. Only the seed idea/goal came from HQ and the teams knew what to do and where to get funding, arms, support etc. Some were totally rogue, but of persons otherwise once attached in some form - and other combinations. VERY FEW, IMO, were official Company ops run from a CIA station and with paperwork to prove it. I'm sure many like Tosh often didn't know who the hell had authorized or was paying for and watching over an operation. Rarely was it the CIA as an Agency per se. But they usually kept an eye on things from afar....even ops not their own. [i.e. had they wanted to stop them, they could have]