Was the Followup Car Blocking a Shot at Z313?

[Drew Phipps]

Wonder if we know exactly how far behind and to the right or the left the chase car was, maybe from Altgens?

[Drew Phipps]

So, am I to understand, from Redlich's memo to Rankin, that, as of April 27, 1964, the WC was still supporting the concept of three bullets making three separate hits on Connally and JFK? The switcheroo over to the SBT must have taken place almost over night, as it was not long after this that the WCR was released, wasn't it? Small wonder so many of the commissioners had doubts about the SBT, outside of the fact it was physically impossible.

As I recall the telling of the story (from Weisberg or Epstein..?..) it was that someone (after the FBI made their investigation) suddenly remembered Altgen's photo of the curb, Tague, and the accompanying newspaper article in the Dallas paper and forwarded it to (Rankin?) to let the WC know, at which point the SBT was contrived.

[Bob Prudhomme]

There's really only one SS guy that could possibly have been in the way: Jack Ready. Right and front in the chase car.

Hi Drew

Remember, we're not just looking at the head shot seen in the Z film at z313, we are also looking at the FBI's head shot location from WCD 298 of 307 feet from the Sniper's nest (40-45 feet further down Elm St. from z313). Elm St. from Houston to the TUP is more crooked than an Austin lawyer (ha ha just kidding Drew) with lots of turns in it and, who knows, maybe they had to move the head shot back to z313 simply because there were too many SS agents blocking the limo?

[David Josephs]

Hi Dave

I should point out to everyone that if you had not posted material about WCD 298 a while back, I likely would still not have heard about it, and I am eternally grateful to you for this. As I tell people, though, I am a slow learner, and it often takes me a while to fully "embrace" information, as you put it so well.

So, am I to understand, from Redlich's memo to Rankin, that, as of April 27, 1964, the WC was still supporting the concept of three bullets making three separate hits on Connally and JFK? The switcheroo over to the SBT must have taken place almost over night, as it was not long after this that the WCR was released, wasn't it? Small wonder so many of the commissioners had doubts about the SBT, outside of the fact it was physically impossible.

As I said in my first post, the thing I finally clued into about WCD 298 (and it took me long enough) was, how did the FBI identify the position down by the steps, 307 feet from the Sniper's Nest, as the location of the head shot? As the head shot was so graphic and unmistakable, does this prove the FBI was watching a different version of the Z film than we are allowed to see? How else could trained investigators get the head shot location so wrong?

Hey there Bob... (gee I hope that didn't come off wrong... I was just excited to see you finally tackle WCD298 and what it meant... Amazes me that more of our little group does not embrace the lies formulated in that exhibit...)

The WCR was published Sept 24, 1964... 6 months later.
I forget when Tague's injury finally comes to the surface to make them change to the SBT - but the SBT made it into the extent autopsy report somehow which was finalized in mid Dec I believe.

We are not entirely sure which reports he is referring to... WCD 1 & 3 as a start yet there were MANY reports from the FBI and SS on the Zfilm and Dealey plaza and the shooting that reach the WC by April. WCD 77, 78, 79, 87, 88, 320 are some of the SS reports and there are tons of FBI reports.... there is alos the possibilty that by April - as the memo says - they KNEW what they were goping to write and conclude and these FBI reports were not corroborating it... so they better fix it!... could be another take on that memo...

This exhibit was prepared by a team headed by FBI SA Gauthier - his testimony is available... the Commissioners see this in January.

"What sources did they use to place the shots where they did?" has been my question for this entire time.... they had films, photos, survbeys and plans. They obvious had the Zfilm which contradicts the conclusions of this display yet they went ahead with it anyway. The WCR Exhibit though destroys what the model was trying to show...

[Drew Phipps]

Just in a napkin type calculation:


If we pretend that SS agent West is three feet taller than a sitting JFK (both are riding in cars), and if we pretend that the chase car is three feet above the limo (elevation change from roughly z250 to z 313), that totals 6 feet.

At a 15 degree angle, sin (15) = .26. To clear a six foot obstacle at that shooting angle the obstacle must be at least ( 6" / .26 ) = 23 feet.

That's roughly one car length. I am supposing the chase car was at least that far back, even if JFK was mostly at the back of his car and West is towards the front, still seems likely the shot would clear.

[Herbert Blenner]

Just in a napkin type calculation:


If we pretend that SS agent West is three feet taller than a sitting JFK (both are riding in cars), and if we pretend that the chase car is three feet above the limo (elevation change from roughly z250 to z 313), that totals 6 feet.

At a 15 degree angle, sin (15) = .26. To clear a six foot obstacle at that shooting angle the obstacle must be at least ( 6" / .26 ) = 23 feet.

That's roughly one car length. I am supposing the chase car was at least that far back, even if JFK was mostly at the back of his car and West is towards the front, still seems likely the shot would clear.

I calculate that the shooter would not take a shot if a Secret Service agent standing on the running board of the follow-up car were in the line of fire.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Something else to think about. The shooter may be looking through his scope at the limo and follow up car at a 15-18° angle but, Elm St. is not on flat and level ground. It slopes down to the Triple Underpass at 3.13° or, as we say, a 5.46% grade. For every 18.3 feet forward, Elm St., at this point, will drop one foot.

If the shooter is trying to see over one of the standing SS agents' heads to line a shot up on JFK, and he and JFK are 18.3 feet apart, drop JFK down another foot from where the shooter would see him if Elm St. was level. Drop JFK down 2 feet if there is 36.6 feet between them.

It has been estimated that, with JFK sitting upright in the back of the limo, the top of his head would have been just over 4 feet above the pavement. However, by the time of the head shot, JFK is no longer upright and, in fact, is slumped to the left. The top of his head may only be 3 feet above the pavement at this point.

[Tracy Riddle]

So, am I to understand, from Redlich's memo to Rankin, that, as of April 27, 1964, the WC was still supporting the concept of three bullets making three separate hits on Connally and JFK? The switcheroo over to the SBT must have taken place almost over night, as it was not long after this that the WCR was released, wasn't it? Small wonder so many of the commissioners had doubts about the SBT, outside of the fact it was physically impossible.

As I recall the telling of the story (from Weisberg or Epstein..?..) it was that someone (after the FBI made their investigation) suddenly remembered Altgen's photo of the curb, Tague, and the accompanying newspaper article in the Dallas paper and forwarded it to (Rankin?) to let the WC know, at which point the SBT was contrived.

No, the SBT was being developed in the spring of '64, based on Kennedy and Connally being wounded too close together in the Z-film. They didn't start paying attention to Tague until the summer of '64.

I don't think any SS agents in the followup car would have blocked a shot from the rear, if it was fired from an upper floor. It might have been a problem for a Dal-Tex shooter on the third or fourth floor.

[Bob Prudhomme]

So, am I to understand, from Redlich's memo to Rankin, that, as of April 27, 1964, the WC was still supporting the concept of three bullets making three separate hits on Connally and JFK? The switcheroo over to the SBT must have taken place almost over night, as it was not long after this that the WCR was released, wasn't it? Small wonder so many of the commissioners had doubts about the SBT, outside of the fact it was physically impossible.

As I recall the telling of the story (from Weisberg or Epstein..?..) it was that someone (after the FBI made their investigation) suddenly remembered Altgen's photo of the curb, Tague, and the accompanying newspaper article in the Dallas paper and forwarded it to (Rankin?) to let the WC know, at which point the SBT was contrived.

No, the SBT was being developed in the spring of '64, based on Kennedy and Connally being wounded too close together in the Z-film. They didn't start paying attention to Tague until the summer of '64.

I don't think any SS agents in the followup car would have blocked a shot from the rear, if it was fired from an upper floor. It might have been a problem for a Dal-Tex shooter on the third or fourth floor.

Anyone on this forum ever consider backing up their opinions with facts or mathematical data?

[David Josephs]

Tracy - if the SBT is not created until the Summer of 64, how does it get into the Autopsy ? How does Specter ask the Drs about it in March?
Tague is not questioned until July, I get that, but I find it hard to accept that the SBT was not conceived until after March 1964... if so, the Autopsy in existence is an obvious forgery and the wheels on the bus go round and round... ::

Mr. SPECTER - Permit me to supply some additional facts, Dr. Perry, which I shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion.
Assume first of all that the President was struck by a 6.5 mm. copper-jacketed bullet fired from a gun having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the weapon being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, with the bullet striking him at an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees, striking the President on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, passing through the President's body striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the posterior portion of the President's body through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity but bruising the apex of the right pleural cavity, and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung inflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have just described, and striking the trachea causing the injury which you described, and then exiting from the hole that you have described in the midline of the neck.
Now, assuming those facts to be true, would the hole which you observed in the neck of the President be consistent with an exit wound under those circumstances?

=================
The Assassination of John F. Kennedy
Warren Report
Appendix IX - Autopsy Report and Supplemental Report
Clinical Record - Autopsy Protocol The missile contused the strap muscles of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the anterior surface ofthe neck

Date 11/22/63 1300 (CST)
Prosecter: CDR J.J. Humes, MC, USA (497831)
Assistant: CDR "J" Thornton Boswell, MC, USN, (439878);
LCOL, Pierre A. Finck, MC, USA (04 043 322)
Full Autopsy


Date: 6 December 1963Final Summary (Supplemental Autopsy Exam)
This supplementary report covers in more detail the extensive degree
of cerebral trauma in this case. However neither this portion of the
examination nor the microscopic examinations alter the previously
submitted report or add significant details to the cause of death.
/s/
J. J. HUMES
CDR, MC, USN, 497831

=====================



Bob...
kinda thought I did that Bob... ??

I showed above (and again below) that the Survey data and the legends contradict the calculations for this model.... and the survey was done in May 1964 while this model was completed in January 1964...

There is simply no logical reason for them to have put a shot down by the steps unless there was some source information which corroborated it... You think they just stuck a shot 40 feet past Z313 for the fun of it?

Other than Altgens' comment about the shot being 15 feet from him there is no evidence offered to corroborate the location of these shots...

The first shot and thrid shots conflicts with the evidence we get to see...
The elevations are all wrong, the speed to cover distance is all wrong, everything about this model is incorrect - so they either constructed it from evidence which was never offered..

Mr. SPECTER. And what model reproduction, if any, did you make of the scene of the assassination itself?
Mr. GAUTHIER. The data, concerning the scene of the assassination, was developed by the Bureau's Exhibits Section, including myself, at the site on December 2, 3, and 4,. of 1963. From this data we built a three-dimensional exhibit, one-quarter of an inch to the foot. It contained the pertinent details of the site, including street lights, catch basin, concrete structures in the area, including buildings, grades, scale models of the cars that comprised the motorcade, consisting of the police lead car, the Presidential car, the followup car, the Lincoln open car that the Vice President was riding in, and the followup car behind the Vice-Presidential car.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate in the onsite tests made in Dallas?
Mr. GAUTHIER. I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Was a survey made of the scene used to record some of the results of that onsite testing?
Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And by whom was the survey made?
Mr. GAUTHIER. The survey was made on May 24, 1964, by Robert H. West, county surveyor, a licensed State land surveyor, located at 160 County Courthouse, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you brought the tracing of that survey with you today?
Mr. GAUTHIER. I have; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you brought a cardboard reproduction of that?
Mr. GAUTHIER. A[B] copy made from the tracing[/B]; yes.