David Josephs Wrote:The short answer is the FBI and SS were in control of the evidence - all the evidence - and it didn't matter where Oswald was, who might have seen him (think Carolyn Arnold) and what they actually said... the evidence was going to point to Oswald regardless. The fact that 50+ years later we still cannot say who shot JFK appears to me that the elaborate, well-orchestrated conspiracy has yet to be cracked other than to prove Oswald could not have done it.
But photographs are a different matter. Look at the trouble the Altgens photo caused. No one could control it being published by the AP 30 minutes later. Lovelady is far enough in the background, and the image is fuzzy enough, that people are still arguing about it. What if Oswald had been right on Elm St, photographed as clear and sharp as some of the women you can see in those photos?
As I've posted in the past - if someone ran up to the limo and hit JFK in the head with a bat - the EVIDENCE still would have been Oswald in the TSBD with the rifle. It's 1963 - You gonna believe the FBI or your lying eyes?
Umm...no. There are limits. Most Americans did not accept the official story, and the Lovelady photo was a major early talking point for the first generation of critics. If they'd tried to tell us that Oswald shot himself, after everyone saw Ruby shoot him on TV, how many people would have believed it? Do you think J. Edgar Hoover had godlike powers?
Alan Ford Wrote:IMHO had the presidential limousine been running on time, the wrongfully accused's company handlers had him right where they needed him to be, but due to the late arrival of the motorcade his decoy errand had already run its course, thus his appearance out front where he says he was all along...
Since I have been arbitrarily denied permission to discuss this topic on this site I invite you to sign-on to MacRae's site where this is being discussed. I have proven Prayer Man is not Oswald in my analysis over there. A direct height comparison between 6 foot tall Frazier and Prayer Man in Darnell shows Prayer Man is 6-7 inches shorter than Frazier, excluding him from being the 5 foot 9 Oswald who could only be 3 inches shorter than Frazier. The ROKC website you link is credulous as are its obnoxious members.
Alan Ford Wrote:IMHO had the presidential limousine been running on time, the wrongfully accused's company handlers had him right where they needed him to be, but due to the late arrival of the motorcade his decoy errand had already run its course, thus his appearance out front where he says he was all along...
Since I have been arbitrarily denied permission to discuss this topic on this site I invite you to sign-on to MacRae's site where this is being discussed. I have proven Prayer Man is not Oswald in my analysis over there. A direct height comparison between 6 foot tall Frazier and Prayer Man in Darnell shows Prayer Man is 6-7 inches shorter than Frazier, excluding him from being the 5 foot 9 Oswald who could only be 3 inches shorter than Frazier. The ROKC website you link is credulous as are its obnoxious members.
How do I say this respectfully, Mr. Doyle, well, suffice it to say--without leveling charges against anyone behind their back--the best way to say this is just to come out and say it, and allow the chips to fall where they may. That said, without equating you with the Tessio character in Mario Puzo's bestseller The Godfather, Do you remember that scene when Tessio approaches Don Michael during the late Don's funeral proceedings?
If you don't, here let me bring you up to speed...prior to his death the aging godfather warned his beloved son, Michael, the person who approaches you to set up a meeting for "peace" somewhere where you will be safe amid the warring factions of the respective mob families is a traitor. Now, for clarity sake and so there is no misunderstanding here, Mr. Doyle, I am NOT inferring you are a traitor, just let me get to my point.
The point is I personally do not trust much--if anything--coming out of the venue you've invited me to. However, if you care to PM me and or email me, I'm open to hearing all of what you have to share about your findings. Now, in fairness to you, just so you don't waste your time, if all you have is a height differential, you may wish to rework your conclusions. For example, just because a camera angle much closer to an object makes it appear much bigger than the Empire State Building in the distance, we both know better, don't we?
For those interested in the truth I have proven beyond a doubt that Prayer Man is 6-7 inches shorter than Frazier in the Darnell frame by direct height comparison. I did it over at Duncan's forum since it was disallowed here. There is no camera angle distance perspective shift that can be used to deny this. Both Prayer Man and Frazier are at distances from the lens that disallow any perspective excuses and a direct height comparison can be made. Prayer Man is clearly 6-7 inches shorter than the 6 foot tall Frazier which makes him 5 foot 5 or 6. Since Oswald was 5 foot 9 this excludes Oswald as being Prayer Man and ends the issue simply.
You are linking a website (ROKC) that is completely uncredible and occupied by notorious cranks.
Quote:For example, just because a camera angle much closer to an object makes it appear much bigger than the Empire State Building in the distance, we both know better, don't we?
There's absolutely no scientific merit to this Kamp-like statement that's just pulled out of the air. If I were allowed open and free debate on this I could prove it wrong like I have over at MacRae's forum. It is a sin against Deep Politics to not seek the truth on evidence. The words "much closer" is a false statement. Prayer Man and Frazier are at a distance from the lens that does not create such a shift and a direct comparison can be made. It is actually you who offers the unsound reasoning. As far as perspective is concerned Prayer Man and Frazier are on equal planes and can be compared as far as height. It is an incorrect statement to assert a difference in perspective exists between Prayer Man and Frazier in Darnell. That is not true.
David Josephs Wrote:The short answer is the FBI and SS were in control of the evidence - all the evidence - and it didn't matter where Oswald was, who might have seen him (think Carolyn Arnold) and what they actually said... the evidence was going to point to Oswald regardless. The fact that 50+ years later we still cannot say who shot JFK appears to me that the elaborate, well-orchestrated conspiracy has yet to be cracked other than to prove Oswald could not have done it.
But photographs are a different matter. Look at the trouble the Altgens photo caused. No one could control it being published by the AP 30 minutes later. Lovelady is far enough in the background, and the image is fuzzy enough, that people are still arguing about it. What if Oswald had been right on Elm St, photographed as clear and sharp as some of the women you can see in those photos?
As I've posted in the past - if someone ran up to the limo and hit JFK in the head with a bat - the EVIDENCE still would have been Oswald in the TSBD with the rifle. It's 1963 - You gonna believe the FBI or your lying eyes?
Umm...no. There are limits. Most Americans did not accept the official story, and the Lovelady photo was a major early talking point for the first generation of critics. If they'd tried to tell us that Oswald shot himself, after everyone saw Ruby shoot him on TV, how many people would have believed it? Do you think J. Edgar Hoover had godlike powers?
Tracy -
Only a slight bit of sarcasm in my statement... what again has accepting the evidence or not have to do with what the Evidence says?
I've been picking apart the Evidence for years and years... it says that Oswald did it, from the 6th floor with a rifle on his own. Period.
In 1963? you bet your ass Hoover had Godlike power - over his fiefdom while pushing out the boundaries as often as possible.
You seem to forget he initiated the first non-military intelligence organization to cover the Western Hemisphere...
He had as many people in Mexico as the CIA... and had more in every major city south of Texas.
He created, out of thin air, all the Mexico trip evidence which attempts to prove Oswald took a bus to and from Mexico City, when that never happened.
Bottom line Tracy - if we can't SEE Oswald clearly in those frames, we cannot conclude anything about who it is. But we can see problems with that area.
My question remains... Where is Wesley's head above the rest in Altgens or Weigman - during the assassination and why would he claim Shelley and Lovelady were below him on the stairs when Lovelady is in Wesley's position in Weigman and is somehow on those lower steps again in Martin.
With every day we find statements of those on those steps not being corroborated by the images. The last Shelley and Lovelady say is they are inside the back door after the RR tracks.
How is that Lovelady in Martin and Hughes if he was inside on the first floor all that time?
Mr. BALL - Did you see any other people on the first floor? Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys had come in. Mr. BALL - And you stayed on the first floor then? Mr. LOVELADY - I would say 30 minutes. And one of the policemen asked me would I take them up on the sixth floor.
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right..... R. Hunter
You continue to make some rather interesting points, Mr. Josephs.
That said, the reason the Three Stooges (Bill "sinister snake" Shelley; Billy "lying sack of smit" Lovelady and Buell "chickensmit" Wesley Frazier) oscillated so much over where they were and what they saw is because they did all they could do to not be pinned down (precisely because of what and WHO they saw).
They saw the wrongfully accused standing there, but cowards cave rather than tell the truth.
After initially wissing their pants upon seeing the wrongfully accuse arrive atop those steps after completing the decoy errand he was sent on, they simply went into CYA mode soon thereafter...who knew the limousine would actually run later than expected Oops!
Mr. Frazier if you happen by somehow, remember it's never too late to come clean. I know courage like that doesn't grow upon trees sir, so you have a gut check to make, come clean or tow the "national security" line like a mouse. I think you're a better human being than that. Throw those thirty pieces of silver right back at them. Tell them to go to the hot place. Kick some a** Buell...dare you to.
Alan Ford Wrote:IMHO had the presidential limousine been running on time, the wrongfully accused's company handlers had him right where they needed him to be, but due to the late arrival of the motorcade his decoy errand had already run its course, thus his appearance out front where he says he was all along...
Since I have been arbitrarily denied permission to discuss this topic on this site I invite you to sign-on to MacRae's site where this is being discussed. I have proven Prayer Man is not Oswald in my analysis over there. A direct height comparison between 6 foot tall Frazier and Prayer Man in Darnell shows Prayer Man is 6-7 inches shorter than Frazier, excluding him from being the 5 foot 9 Oswald who could only be 3 inches shorter than Frazier. The ROKC website you link is credulous as are its obnoxious members.
How do I say this respectfully, Mr. Doyle, well, suffice it to say--without leveling charges against anyone behind their back--the best way to say this is just to come out and say it, and allow the chips to fall where they may. That said, without equating you with the Tessio character in Mario Puzo's bestseller The Godfather, Do you remember that scene when Tessio approaches Don Michael during the late Don's funeral proceedings?
If you don't, here let me bring you up to speed...prior to his death the aging godfather warned his beloved son, Michael, the person who approaches you to set up a meeting for "peace" somewhere where you will be safe amid the warring factions of the respective mob families is a traitor. Now, for clarity sake and so there is no misunderstanding here, Mr. Doyle, I am NOT inferring you are a traitor, just let me get to my point.
The point is I personally do not trust much--if anything--coming out of the venue you've invited me to. However, if you care to PM me and or email me, I'm open to hearing all of what you have to share about your findings. Now, in fairness to you, just so you don't waste your time, if all you have is a height differential, you may wish to rework your conclusions. For example, just because a camera angle much closer to an object makes it appear much bigger than the Empire State Building in the distance, we both know better, don't we?
I'm weary of this discussion in general, but I will say this: Unless and until an early generation SCAN of the original film can be obtained, and some researchers are endeavoring to do so, NOTHING can be proven about PM, other than who he isn't, based on the confirmed location of other individuals known to have been in the area.
Michael Cross Wrote:I'm weary of this discussion in general, but I will say this: Unless and until an early generation SCAN of the original film can be obtained, and some researchers are endeavoring to do so, NOTHING can be proven about PM, other than who he isn't, based on the confirmed location of other individuals known to have been in the area.
Mr Cross,
I'm not sure if you are aware that I've already proven Prayer Man can't possibly be Oswald via a direct height comparison in Darnell. If you compare heights between Prayer Man and Frazier in the Darnell frame it is plainly visible that Prayer Man is 6-7 inches shorter than the 6 foot tall Frazier making him 5 foot 5 or 6. Since Oswald was 5 foot 9 this precludes Oswald from being Prayer Man by simple analysis.
I'm not sure why this discussion is not allowed here since it is no different than any other discussion, however if it is arbitrarily disallowed I have proven this against all doubters at MacRae's forum and ROKC was not able to refute it.
I'd be glad to discuss this over there if you like.
Certainly applaud the due diligence of those researchers endeavoring to obtain, quote, "an early generation SCAN of the original film", unquote. Way to go! How encouraging that they are actually doing something to help move the discussion along, rather than bog it down into phantom purses, handbags, girdles, lipstick, masquerading Prayer Man wannabees, etc. al...
I also applaud your last sentence as well (no truer words have been spoken). Fair is fair. Enjoy your day. Cheers!
In fairness to objective thinkers everywhere, the following Q & A link was created to prevent folks from becoming sidetracked --->
"Guests" please be wary of distortions and distractions. Prayer Man is just that, a man...A human being like any of the rest of us who could have simply reposed himself in a relaxed state as oppose to standing fully erect. How many of us in our daily lives have simply leaned upon something for support as oppose to standing at attention at all times?
Fully erect I'm 73inches, but at this very moment, hunched/resting over my desk chair for support to enter this response, I'm 5'6", so with the logic of some people I guess I'm now reduced to playing point-guard instead of small forward...go figure.
Again, "Guests", no phantom purses, handbags, lipstick, or girdles...just venture here for a neatly wrapped package of the available evidence at present -----> http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/prayer-man-faq
Michael Cross Wrote:I'm weary of this discussion in general, but I will say this: Unless and until an early generation SCAN of the original film can be obtained, and some researchers are endeavoring to do so, NOTHING can be proven about PM, other than who he isn't, based on the confirmed location of other individuals known to have been in the area.
Mr Cross,
I'm not sure if you are aware that I've already proven Prayer Man can't possibly be Oswald via a direct height comparison in Darnell. If you compare heights between Prayer Man and Frazier in the Darnell frame it is plainly visible that Prayer Man is 6-7 inches shorter than the 6 foot tall Frazier making him 5 foot 5 or 6. Since Oswald was 5 foot 9 this precludes Oswald from being Prayer Man by simple analysis.
I'm not sure why this discussion is not allowed here since it is no different than any other discussion, however if it is arbitrarily disallowed I have proven this against all doubters at MacRae's forum and ROKC was not able to refute it.
I'd be glad to discuss this over there if you like.
Sigh. So you were somehow able to render exact measurements for every person, step and architectural feature present in the frame, in the required three dimensions, from a tiny amount of poorly rendered digital information? Amazing. Or did you travel back in time and place laser measuring devices on site to allow for such precise information?
No, I won't be joining you elsewhere to discuss any of the "research" done on the tiny two dimensional Darnell frame. Ever.
