What Will Constitute Victory?

[Charles Drago]

Simple questions demanding immediate answers:

1. How should we define "victory" in our struggle with the killers of JFK?

2. In a broader "Knowledge is Power" strategy, how do forums such as the DPF rate as tactical components of the campaign to empower the extended victims of Dealey Plaza by informing them of the truth?

3. In the above regard, what have all the books and conferences and films and forums accomplished to date?

4. How many divisions do we have?

[Peter Lemkin]

Simple questions demanding immediate answers:

1. How should we define "victory" in our struggle with the killers of JFK?
A general public knowledgable enough to be angry; angry enough to never let it happen again; detrermined enough to work for change entirely of the form of government, and the power relationships within it. Consider actual trials and imprisonment of those remaining few icing on the cake - and justice long delayed.

2. In a broader "Knowledge is Power" strategy, how do forums such as the DPF rate as tactical components of the campaign to empower the extended victims of Dealey Plaza by informing them of the truth?
Directly related to number of hits and inversely related to amount of disinformation in competition. We have enough information now. More is welcome, but we have more than enough to win in court or the court of public opinion - however, we can not get entree to the former and limited to the later

3. In the above regard, what have all the books and conferences and films and forums accomplished to date?
A massive amount - but, sadly, to a very limited audience of us weird ones - we need to spread our 'weirdness'.

4. How many divisions do we have?
At least thrice those of the Pope.

!

[Paul Rigby]

Simple questions demanding immediate answers:

1. How should we define "victory" in our struggle with the killers of JFK?

2. In a broader "Knowledge is Power" strategy, how do forums such as the DPF rate as tactical components of the campaign to empower the extended victims of Dealey Plaza by informing them of the truth?

3. In the above regard, what have all the books and conferences and films and forums accomplished to date?

4. How many divisions do we have?

1. When Gary Mack is the janitor of the Sixth Form Museum of Correction; and the janitor trousers the cool $180,000 per annum currently paid the former.

2. With difficulty. Fora such as this are a necessary base, but need to reach well beyond their natural constituencies.

3. We first need to know who was responsible for what; and what the real motives & objectives of the books, conferences et al really were. It is by no means clear that all that has dissented was truly dissent. Non-specific paranoia is an instrument of the right. Documented and focused anger is the right's enemy.

4. There are three types of conspiracy theorist: those deployed by the state's instruments to discredit the very alternatives they ostensibly espouse; genuine nutters; and interested amateurs with important insights and verities to offer. Only the first two are foregrounded by the mainstream media. Happily, the latter is on the way out. Less happily, the spooks are well-established in the blog- and forum-sphere.

Paul

[Nathaniel Heidenheimer]

Simple questions demanding immediate answers:

1. How should we define "victory" in our struggle with the killers of JFK?

2. In a broader "Knowledge is Power" strategy, how do forums such as the DPF rate as tactical components of the campaign to empower the extended victims of Dealey Plaza by informing them of the truth?

3. In the above regard, what have all the books and conferences and films and forums accomplished to date?

4. How many divisions do we have?

----

I have no idea about the answer, but this is certainly the right question(s)!

And, frankly it has always amazed me how infrequently they are asked.

There are sensitive moments when I even wonder if some forums play a kind of intel. role in the sense that they keep all researchers in one place, and thereby ACTUALLY PREVENT THE EVOLUTION OF A CRITICAL MASS!

Please note that I by no means mean to imply that this is inherent in media- genre of forums like this one.

Rather, UNLESS THERE IS NOT AN EXPLICITLY STATED MISSION TO BROADEN AWARENESS AND READERSHIP OF A FORUM that that could be the result (a smaller and generationally isolated group " in the know) whether that is the intention or not.

I hope that this thread generates quite a lot of thought.

[Charles Drago]

So do I, Nathaniel.

FYI, I have asked this question often in print and on three separate occasions from the Lancer podium -- twice as the central theme of papers, of which one was a keynote address (I opened for David Lifton -- in the showbiz sense).

The response was stunned and stunning silence.

In my essay, "In the Blossom of Our Sins," I asked -- over fifteen years ago and in utter frustration:

"Are our individual and collective identities symbiotically linked to the roles we play as Kennedy Assassination Researchers/Investigators/Gadflies to the degree that the termination of those roles, a certain consequence of our ultimate victory, is perceived to be tantamount to the termination of the self? As sufferers of such a fear, we would be in exalted company.

"Writing in The End of Science of what he perceives to be scientists’ fear of reaching for absolute answers, John Horgan notes: ' … after one arrives at The Answer, what then? There is a kind of horror in thinking that our sense of wonder might be extinguished, once and for all time, by our knowledge. What, then, would be the purpose of existence? There would be none … Many scientists harbor a profound ambivalence concerning the notion of absolute truth. Like Roger Penrose, who could not decide whether his belief in a final theory was optimistic or pessimistic. Or Steven Weinberg, who equated comprehensibility with pointlessness. Or David Bohm, who was compelled both to clarify reality and obscure it. Or Edmund Wilson, who lusted after a final theory of human nature and was chilled by the thought that it might be attained. Or Freeman Dyson, who insisted that anxiety and doubt are essential to existence … '

"And if not death of the self, then what of that of the nation, a necrotic body politic that – as we witness in, among other tableaus, Zapruder film frame 313 – long ago suffered the demise of its moral authority to govern and command allegiance? ...

"[W]ill we ever complete our work? Do we dare to complete it? Could we have achieved our goal years ago? Have we given sufficient consideration to ... a series of [non-violent] actions that [perhaps would] be described by targeted groups as 'terrorist' in nature? Acts of war?"

Thank you. Next speaker, please.

[Mark Stapleton]

Simple questions demanding immediate answers:

1. How should we define "victory" in our struggle with the killers of JFK?

2. In a broader "Knowledge is Power" strategy, how do forums such as the DPF rate as tactical components of the campaign to empower the extended victims of Dealey Plaza by informing them of the truth?

3. In the above regard, what have all the books and conferences and films and forums accomplished to date?

4. How many divisions do we have?

Excellent questions, Charles, so I'll happily contribute.


1. Insofar as achieving the preliminary objective of establishing the fallacy of the WC and the wider coverup, it could be argued victory has already been achieved, considering that only 20% (or thereabouts) of Americans believe LHO was the killer. Of course, this doesn't answer the more important who and why questions.

If victory means the full revelation of what took place in DP, by whom, how and why, then the odds are against victory, imo. I do hold out a slight hope that the full story may come to light, however. I think it might occur as a consequence of a falling out between the power elites responsible for vigilantly maintaining this lie for so long. For example, I would dearly love the full, unedited, footnoted transcript of the Bilderberg meeting in Cannes in May 1963 to magically appear online one day

2. In my view, the real utility of forums like DPF is not just to inform and analyse the facts (while discarding the myths and lies), but to persuade the wider public of the importance of discovering why Z313 occurred. It's in their interests to know what happened that day, because it caused the world's most powerful nation to embark on a radically different course. The fog of public indifference has to be lifted and it's up to us to transform our shared interest in this case into a political cause which has great importance and relevance to the American public, and the world.

3. Great things. The only problem is that the JFK story has become a lucrative cottage industry which attracts not only genuine truthseekers, but quick buck hustlers as well. The latter only serve to make the waters muddier, so they have to be exposed and sent packing.

4. Impossible to answer, but it's amazing to witness on some forums how intelligent people can become embroiled in bitter, personal arguments over what can only be described as minute details regarding such things as interpretation of the film and photographic record. Pride and point scoring overtake the primary aim of our research. It's wasteful, distasteful and a turn off for some newbies looking at the case for the first time. And every newbie should be encouraged rather than discouraged. Fortunately, the DPF is currently free of this affliction.

[Dawn Meredith]

Simple questions demanding immediate answers:

1. How should we define "victory" in our struggle with the killers of JFK?

2. In a broader "Knowledge is Power" strategy, how do forums such as the DPF rate as tactical components of the campaign to empower the extended victims of Dealey Plaza by informing them of the truth?

3. In the above regard, what have all the books and conferences and films and forums accomplished to date?

4. How many divisions do we have?

Great guestions and answers!
1. When President Obama announces on national tv that the WC was a lie. And Dan Rather, on behalf of Op Mockingbird, apologises for his personal 40+ year promotion of that lie.

2. We honor our pledge: to be viglient about those who wish to spread disinformation. If some make it past the application process we now have in place, we here are well trained at spotting the fakes. We invite new people to learn and pass it on to the next generations. Forums like this are the very opposite of MSM -(mainstream media)- so we are extremely important in that we educate, update, and presist in our government to come clean.

3. This is a harder question because there are so many excellent books. Some authors write just to gain entrance into the critical community then have a sudden "change of heart". Epstein (Inquest) comes to mind. Others are disinformationists from the get go. (Posner, Bugliosi e.g. Liars whe KNOW they are lying imho). However the truly great books far outnumber the bad ones.
The films have been very important. "Executive Action" only played in Boston a week, but it's around. I have it on VHS, but am sure it's obtainable on dvd.
"JFK" introduced the subject to so many of the younger generation and this film alone had a huge role in the passage of the bill which lead to the AARB.
Now that Stone is making the rounds on tv again with his new film "Bush", he never misses an opportunity to talk about JFK as well. And use the "C" word!
I think films, both at the theatre and here on the net have been incredibly successful in keeping this alive and educating newcomers. Now if only sites like McAdams' would disappear!!
But CD is correct: we are no closer to victory than we were 11/23/63.
How do you force a government to be honest? About a coup d'etat especially?

4. I concur, sadly, with Peter re "divisions". We must find a way to unite as a community. I have been saying this since my entrance - in 1973- via the Assassination Information Bureau, Cambridge, MA.

5. I'm with you. -- cd

Dawn

[Nathaniel Heidenheimer]

and furthermore...

It will count as a victory when the POLICY IMPLICATIONS ARE REATTACHED to JFK so that it becomes more than just a much talked about who dunnit. It needs to be seen IN HISTORY, with all of its international, economoic, intelligence and media implications and, in turn, their effect on our world today.

Why I see them today in the vastly different media treatment of the Auto bailout vs the Bank bailout!!

By the way the best way we can do this NOW, is to promote JFK and the Unspeakable this weekend. Tonight it was at 1,223 on the Amazon ranking so a couple of pushes this weekend could make it go viral whateverthatmeans!! Hope through click and pasting if not by pulling a lever.

This book mixes policy with detail of the assassination -- the how and the why -- like no other I have seen, and I have also seen that people cant not tell others once they have read it.

[Myra Bronstein]

and furthermore...

It will count as a victory when the POLICY IMPLICATIONS ARE REATTACHED to JFK so that it becomes more than just a much talked about who dunnit. It needs to be seen IN HISTORY, with all of its international, economoic, intelligence and media implications and, in turn, their effect on our world today.

Why I see them today in the vastly different media treatment of the Auto bailout vs the Bank bailout!!
...

You noticed that too, eh Nathaniel?

Well, the auto industry has all those horrible (communist) union workers who inflated wages and thereby destroyed the economy. Sure sure they ultimately made wage concessions so that new members start at 50% lower pay, but it's too little too late. Because they already destroyed the economy. Did I mention that they are communists?

Whereas the financial sector has no such union so they are capitalists and therefore real Americans. Real free market Americans. The government will of course subsidize free market capitalists no strings attached no questions asked because the free market has spoken, and it said it wanted our tax money.

AIG executives went on deluxe junkets to Arizona with the bailout bucks.
CEOs of auto makers flew private jets to DC to testify for a bailout. Which is getting more publicity?

And what is the first thing that Hitler did after he seized power with the world trade center attacks, oops I mean the reichstag fire as a scare tactic? Made labor unions illegal.

Damn communists. If a country isn't careful they'll just ruin everything.

[Steve McDonagh]

Hi Everyone,

I would like to comment on just one of Charlie’s excellent questions at this time.

How should we define victory in our struggle with the killers of JFK?

I believe this question would be easier to contemplate if it was split into two parts.

How should we define Victory in our Struggle?

The use of the word struggle is an interesting word because it implies that the circumstance is ongoing - which indeed it is – and fundamentally a struggle is a cause and a cause is born from a belief – We believe in a cause, therefore we struggle.

A struggle is also a fight. So if we are struggling then we are fighting and if we are fighting then we may still attain either victory or succumb to defeat. It can be said that to achieve victory one must first avoid defeat. It can also be said that if one gives up the struggle then one concedes defeat. So our fundamental goal of achieving a victory therefore must be to never give up the struggle.

Never giving up the struggle or cause and refusing to concede defeat in your search for truth is what many of you have been doing for the past forty five years and this in itself is a victory.

How should we define Victory over the killers of JFK?

The first things that spring to mind are the obvious:

·All known factual truths revealed
·Persons ultimately responsible convicted
·The complete historical record amended accordingly

Because I sincerely believe that no one will ever be prosecuted or convicted in a court of law for the assassination of JFK, this goal is not only unattainable but should be removed from our definitions of victory.

We all know that history is supposedly written by the ‘winners’ and in many cases this is true because history is basically a compilation of known facts, truths or events pertaining to the past much of which may well have been moulded by 'winners'. However, history can and is often rewritten when one or more of the known facts, truths or events are superseded by another. So to amend the complete historical record pertaining to the assassination of JFK one must only uncover or reveal relevant known facts and truths that supersede those that created the event.

Therefore it is my opinion that to achieve a victory in the case of the assassination of JFK one must only aspire to a position where all known facts and truths have been revealed and are available for review. However, the facts and truths must be able to supersede the current facts and truths that the current historical records of JFK’s assassination are based on, otherwise we risk inadvertently offering victory to our adversaries – which thankfully is extremely unlikely.

So how do we achieve this? (These are just my ideas, you may have your own)

Well let’s start with the hard part and whether you agree with my thoughts or not I believe this one to be critical if the JFK research community (doesnt that sound much better than conspiricy theorists) is to play any part in this happening.

1.As a research community we would have to collectively agree on what was a realistic and acceptable goal.

Without this all that is ever portrayed to the outside is a community of division, squabbling and petty backstabbing that has no common cause. It is the equivalent of looking through the window of a squalid rat infested restaurant – would you really care how good the food is.

One of the main reasons I believe this is critical is because after forty five years I really find it hard to believe without a death bed confession by someone who is categorically beyond reproach or some universally accepted stunning evidence being manually and unexpectedly uncovered, nothing will change. Any snippet of information that may filter down an official drain pipe such as the freedom of information act, I’m quite sure will have been well vetted before its release and therefore in the great scheme of things probably meaningless.

I also believe that the odds of getting the majority of the JFKRC to agree on one single plausible scenario that could be packaged branded and pitched to the world is remote to say the least. Does anyone even know how many different theories there is out there right now and that's before we even break them down into subcategories. To be honest, I am pretty sure there is a strong possibility that at least one person has probably hit the right story, but it doesn't really make any difference.

I believe the days of analyzing the case in minute detail should no longer be the fundamental strategy. Most people are pretty sure what happened so all we need do now is to fill in the blanks with the available evidence and I am confident that the evidence already collected by the WC/FBI/CIA/DPD would be more than sufficient to do that and this is the reason it is hidden away - there can be no other conclusion.

So in my view for the greater good and indeed before it is too late, the JFKRC should lower its prize and find away to throw its full weight behind a mechanism that will persuade the New US Government (for that is what I hope it will turn out to be in the next four years) to hand over every single piece of information it has on the assassination(s). I used the word persuade the USG to hand over the evidence as opposed to force them to reopen a case. The latter would be a natural progression of the former if the evidence warranted it, would it not, but which is the most likely accomplishment?


2.Set up a strictly bi-partisan base that is designed to attract the vast majority of the public that already have an interest in the case.

There is a large base of people with an existing interest in the JFK assassination, but many are put off for various reasons from participating or even making their interest publicly known (I was one of them). Let’s be honest here, there is a stigma (thanks to the media) of being labeled a ‘Conspiracy Theorist’, much more so than being labeled a ‘Lone Nutter’ which apart from inside CT forums I had never heard before. This is one of the reasons there is not the influx of new members that one would imagine was possible within the whole JFK community (CT’s and LN’s).

To overcome this, a bi-partisan community is needed with the common cause of all members being the release of the facts and evidence of the JFK case (to start with). Therefore membership should be open to anyone with this goal regardless of their opinion as to who murdered the President and their opinions should be respected, In fact not only respected but welcomed.

There is a reason that so called ‘Agent Provocateurs’ have been successful for so long and that is the old divide and conquer policy. They divide our ranks by instigating common provocative arguments against us, knowing that sooner or later the ranks will break and people will either resort to abuse, offer crack pot theories as evidence against their points or just run away to the hills where we create a new false sense of security without really tackling the fundamental problems.

There is but one strategy to combat this age old tactic and that is unity.

Since we are involved in a war of words and not guns, and since our words are the most powerful tool we have in the age of the internet and specifically forums, they should at all times be displayed in a civilised, intelligent and articulate manner. No matter what the provocative action.

This kind of display is exactly what ultimately attracts people to your cause. Deep down we all admire smart people especially if they portray self control that is born out of a strong hidden confidence. I am convinced that the truth is on our side but where’s the confidence?

3.To take every opportunity to publicly market this unity (common cause) in the same intelligent, articulate and civilised manner.

If the first two points can be achieved this one will not be too difficult to set up. It only involves a marketing strategy that is designed to generate support for your cause - Like Obama did and incidentally did you notice the manner in which he did it? - I would think if it was done in the right way, even the ‘LN’ community would not be opposed to having all the information made available. After all why would they, they know there is nothing there that will change anything right?

There are already movements out there with the purpose of trying to make this information available already but to be totally honest, I could not name a single one of them. Not only that but how many of them is bi-partisan? At the very least we may be able to create a large enough community that could lend weight to their cause through various novel and interesting marketing techniques.

What is needed is a movement created on a base of unified information and I am afraid to say that a few forums here and there are not going to cut it ladies and gentleman. It is time to up the ante here, get serious and quit moaning about things like the mainstream media – their days of being 'mainstream' are numbered and they know this. Have you noticed how much they look to the internet for their own news these days: iReports, YouTube and other popular websites?

You do not have to be a rocket scientist to set up websites that are fun, entertaining and informative.

There is much detail and information missing here for two reasons, one I better let you digest what I have already written and two I dont have all the answers. The only way we will obtain them is by sitting down and deciding what they should be.

Thanks - Steve