Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE?

[Jim Hargrove]

Hi, DJ!!!

Great work with those collages. I tried to explain to Parker that his latest snit was all a matter of perspective, but nothing landed the final blow like your graphics!!

[David Josephs]

Hi, DJ!!!

Great work with those collages. I tried to explain to Parker that his latest snit was all a matter of perspective, but nothing landed the final blow like your graphics!!

Appreciated Jim...

If anyone does read thru that thread - and please excuse the momentary lapse of reason and my descent into ad hom land - notice some of the key issues...

One of the more important ones from that thread is the FBI doctoring the NYC school record, only to get caught red-handed and the argument against Harvey moving to North Dakota.

Real quick - North Dakota. The argument is that after the summer of 1953 and the zoo photo, Ozzie and Ma go to Stanley ND where WilliamTimmer later reports ahving spent time with the New Yorker who liked to cuase trouble and fight - Harvey.

The argument goes that Mosby actually meant that Oswald said NO-New Orleans, not ND.
First John has the handwritten notes on microfilm and they say ND which is what she wtore in the artilce.

Second... if they moved to New Orleans in Sept 1953 - how does Ozzie attend 8th Grade at PS44 in NYC?
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Now the NYC school records and how an administrator would NEVER record attendance like this.

We are supposed to accept that from March 23 1953 thru June 26, 1953 there are 127 potential days of school.








The FBI needed to get Ozzie from the restarting of 7th grade thru the time they left NYC in Jan 1954... (Again, if they moved to New Orleans there surely is not record of them coming back to NYC)

So the FBI shooses these two dates and writes the report above... a total of 200 days of school attended or not.

Below is every weekday between 3/23/53 and 1/8/54. Including summer, Youth House and all school holidays there are 210 days avaialble for Ozzie to have attended PS44.

The 62 8/2 and 3 8/2 days starting Sept 14, 1953 does take us to January 8th. So the problem is the 3/23 until 9/14 period... We need to fit the FBI's 200 days into this timeframe...

Ozzie did not go to summer school. There was a Spring and Winter Break and there are 55 days of summer vacation.

An administrator at PS44 would never write 109 3/2 days in that spot... it's barely over 3 months at 20 days per month.

This is evidence which shows that HARVEY went to Youth House, Lee went to PS44 in Manhattan and this is a combined record of two children at two different PS44's which the FBI proceeded to muck up by forgetting that there was no summer school.

Why did all of this happen? John Ely was tasked with creating the Oswald timeline... when he presented it finally, this was the response from Jenner and Rankin:

[Jim Hargrove]

[Jim Hargrove]

Here's the first page of the FBI report on Henry Timmer. This no doubt belongs on my website....

[Albert Doyle]

Sounds like a good sighting to me. It begs the question why would they take one of the doubles to North Dakota?



Stanley, North Dakota is not far from the Canadian border.

[Jim Hargrove]

North Dakota always seemed kind of weird to me, too. One thing about Russian-speaking Harvey's life in the 1950s is that it almost seemed kind of like just half a life. His attendance at school was very spotty, followed by relatively brief employments, and even his Marine Corps service appears to be just a portion of a normal enlistment period. American-born Lee, otoh, had steady attendance at school and served out a normal Marine Corps enlistment.

My theory is that Harvey was being given a "taste" of Lee Oswald's life, and then taken out of the picture before anyone noticed what was going on. Dolly Shoe in New Orleans is an interesting example. Harvey's caretaker "mother" was fired from Dolly Shoe because she refused to fill out insurance bonding forms. When Harvey worked full time at Dolly, Lee had a near perfect attendance record at Beauregard.

[Magda Hassan]

I'm sure this has been covered before but wasn't there some sort of peace protest up that way near or even over the Canadian border? Even some photos with a possible Oswald there amongst other people.

[Albert Doyle]

If Harvey had lived in the city North Dakota would be a shock. There's lots of possibilities. Being remote for weird psychological experiments on the young double safe from detection in a rural house would be one. Familiarizing with the possible wide open areas of Russia would be another. Perhaps a British or other mind control expert coming from nearby Canada might be another.


Too bad Timmer didn't remember the name of the particular gang. If it was a Bronx gang that would mean Timmer would have no way to know about it besides the double.

[Jim Hargrove]

There's a ton of push-back on the North Dakota business going all the way back to the Warren Commission. John goes on and on about it in his book. He's pretty sure that Mosby's handwritten notes say "N. Dakota," though a typed version prepared specifically for the WC doesn't. If memory serves from John's write-up, the HSCA tried to get those hand-written notes but didn't. But like so many other documents that appeared nowhere else, or appeared much later, they were "released" to almost no one's notice on the "FBI Series 2" set of 33 microfilm reels from UMI.

[David Josephs]

Hey there Jim....

John and I have been back and forth over something you posted elsewhere... Oswald and his trip to the theater.

In April 1964 McWatters recants his identification of Oswald on his bus and is confirmed by Jones who says the man only looked a little like Oswald since McWatters kept saying so



In his statement McWatters also places the picking up of "a man" near Elm & Houston... while the "woman" it appears was picked up out on Marsalis. When the testimony comes around... like Baker and Truly the story changes.

CE2641 is the FBI report from the Milton Jones interview & McWatters recanting on his identification.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11131#relPageId=2&tab=page

There was a Beckley Bus which goes down Elm and continues onto Beckley then turns south. There is a bus stop less than a minute walk from 1026. The FIRST STORY related to his ride home remains in the interrogation reports - he told everyone he took a bus all the way home (the Marsalis bus stops a 10 min walk from his room) If he walked thru the park there may have been even fewer witnesses to this trip...

Problem remains that LEE is seen walking WEST from as far away Lancaster & 10th. If it was LEE in the Rambler why would Harvey be making comments about it? If it was Harvey, then I can see him lying about how he got to his room.

John brings up the grandest point of all... the interrogation did not try to ascertain HOW he got the theater since it was accepted HE shot Tippit and ran to the theater... Since that didn't happen, his trip to the theater remains one of the ongoing mysteries which can and should be solved...




I don't know who was on which bus, yet the Blue Jacketed man that McWatters and Jones see appears to be similar to the man Whaley describes....

If Lee was leaving the impression he was Harvey... does it make sense that he too would have an ID bracelet and Marine Ring? Whaley claims it is a stretchable band... very unique according to him... yet the images of Lee's bracelet shows a solid chain link. I believe John is checking with the Archives...

Amazing how that 90 mins between 12:30 and 2pm are so shrouded in mystery...




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